Suffer a witch to live?

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OnlyAmbrose

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Hey all,

Are we obligated to put witches to death, as demanded in Exodus 22:18? And would that include Wiccans?

The idea doesn’t seem to be in the Christian spirit to me, but it’s right there in the Bible. How do we explain the fact that we don’t kill Wiccans even when it’s in the Bible?

This was just brought up in a discussion regarding contraception. The argument my friend made was that things change over time, and cited the fact that witches are no longer killed as an example.
 
OnlyAmbrose said:
Hey all,

Are we obligated to put witches to death, as demanded in Exodus 22:18? And would that include Wiccans?

The idea doesn’t seem to be in the Christian spirit to me, but it’s right there in the Bible. How do we explain the fact that we don’t kill Wiccans even when it’s in the Bible?

This was just brought up in a discussion regarding contraception. The argument my friend made was that things change over time, and cited the fact that witches are no longer killed as an example.
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Punishment changed, but the sin didn’t. We also don’t stone adulterous women to death. Why? Because Jesus taught us not to. Ask your friend to explain where a sin in the Bible changed and is no longer considered a sin.
 
OnlyAmbrose said:
Hey all,

Are we obligated to put witches to death, as demanded in Exodus 22:18? And would that include Wiccans?

The idea doesn’t seem to be in the Christian spirit to me, but it’s right there in the Bible. How do we explain the fact that we don’t kill Wiccans even when it’s in the Bible?

This was just brought up in a discussion regarding contraception. The argument my friend made was that things change over time, and cited the fact that witches are no longer killed as an example.
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Some things change (such as how we follow the Mosaic law). Some things don’t change (such as the truth that practicing witchcraft and contraception are intrinsically evil).

That is not a good comparison. You’re comparing how we are to treat a sinner with a sin itself. Just because how we are to treat sinners has changed does not mean that the sin itself changes.
 
ABostonCatholic said:
Some things change (such as how we follow the Mosaic law). Some things don’t change (such as the truth that practicing witchcraft and contraception are intrinsically evil).

That is not a good comparison. You’re comparing how we are to treat a sinner with a sin itself. Just because how we are to treat sinners has changed does not mean that the sin itself changes.
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That’s basically what I said, but then, how do we explain that some parts of the Bible still hold true while other’s don’t?
 
The physical punishments in the OT are fulfilled in the eternal punishments revealed in the NT. For example, being a witch will lead to eternal death–Hell. The People of God do not put people to physical death anymore for sins (only the state can do this to ensure public peace and a just ordering of society).
 
We don’t kill witches for the same reasons we don’t kill homosexuals, adulterers, etc etc etc.
 
OnlyAmbrose said:
The idea doesn’t seem to be in the Christian spirit to me, but it’s right there in the Bible. How do we explain the fact that we don’t kill Wiccans even when it’s in the Bible?
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The first thing that comes to my mind is the quote from C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity:

“But surely the reason we do not execute witches is that we do not believe there are such things. If we did — if we really thought that there were people going around who had sold themselves to the devil and received supernatural powers from him in return and were using these powers to kill their neighbors or drive them mad or bring bad weather, surely we would all agree that if anyone deserved the death penalty, then these filthy quislings did.”
-- C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (end of Chapter 2)​
 
JoeyWarren said:
Homosexuals are required to be put to death as well according to the OT law.
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That’s right. Because sodomy is a mortal sin. The death penalty in this instance was a prefigurement of the punishment of Hell due to sodomites.
 
OnlyAmbrose said:
Are we obligated to put witches to death, as demanded in Exodus 22:18? And would that include Wiccans? The idea doesn’t seem to be in the Christian spirit to me, but it’s right there in the Bible. How do we explain the fact that we don’t kill Wiccans even when it’s in the Bible?
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If I remember the verse to which you allude, it says: “Suffer not a witch to live among you.”

Now, somewhere in the rat’s maze that is my memory, I remember reading that the word that got translated as “witch”, if taken in its original context, would be more accurately rendered “poisoner”. This seems sensible; you wouldn’t want to have someone who goes around poisoning livestock, crops, and your neighbors in your community.

Nonetheless, I read that admonition as “Do not allow a witch/poisoner to remain in your community”, not “Kill all witches”; I read it that way because that’s the same sense that Jesus used when He said, “Suffer the little children to come unto me”. He was telling the observing adults that they should allow their children to approach Him.

If someone’s going around poisoning pets, they shouldn’t be allowed to remain in your community; I think locking them up for a number of years until they have learned the error of their ways would serve well. If they don’t learn - well, that’s what “life in prison” means.

Killing Wiccans? Don’t think so; they make better converts than they do fertilizer.
 
The laws concerning witches was one of those that was germane to the nation of Israel, as a people, because they were a nation wholly dedicated to God. They were not to allow any sort of occult activity or idolatry that would take worship away from the one, true God. And this was because (apart from personal salvation) out of them would come the Messiah. If they allowed their faith and nation to become polluted, like other nations, with such things they would fail in God’s plan for them. This is why God was so “tough” on sin when it came to anything dealing with Israel.

Since Christ has died on the cross, the grace of God has been poured out on all human beings throughout the world as the primary benefit of the Redemption. So, we are not living under the Law of Moses, but under the Law of Grace. Those laws that pertained to Israel as a nation were fulfilled in Christ. Laws such as the Ten Commandments are universal laws that everyone is still expected to obey. But, the judging of what should happen to those who don’t keep the universal or natural law is no longer under the jurisdiction of Israel, but under Christ who is the true Ruler of Israel, and of all mankind.

We don’t kill witches because God has changed his mind about what is right and what is wrong, but because God has given sole judgment to his Son under whom all laws ought to be made for our mutual good. People have forgotten that truth so that in our day we believe that the occult ought to be tolerated as “freedom of religion.” But, a civil right created by any government is not a license to commit sin. Especially when our civil governments no longer base their laws on Christ but on whatever is popular at the time the laws are created.
 
Della said:
Since Christ has died on the cross, the grace of God has been poured out on all human beings throughout the world as the primary benefit of the Redemption. So, we are not living under the Law of Moses, but under the Law of Grace. Those laws that pertained to Israel as a nation were fulfilled in Christ. Laws such as the Ten Commandments are universal laws that everyone is still expected to obey. But, the judging of what should happen to those who don’t keep the universal or natural law is no longer under the jurisdiction of Israel, but under Christ who is the true Ruler of Israel, and of all mankind.

We don’t kill witches because God has changed his mind about what is right and what is wrong, but because God has given sole judgment to his Son under whom all laws ought to be made for our mutual good. People have forgotten that truth so that in our day we believe that the occult ought to be tolerated as “freedom of religion.” But, a civil right created by any government is not a license to commit sin. Especially when our civil governments no longer base their laws on Christ but on whatever is popular at the time the laws are created.
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Thanks for this explanation Della! 👍
 
Exo 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

Exo 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Exo 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

Exo 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Exo 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

Exo 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
 
OnlyAmbrose said:
Are we obligated to put witches to death, as demanded in Exodus 22:18? . . .

The idea doesn’t seem to be in the Christian spirit to me, but it’s right there in the Bible.
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Also bear in mind that the passage you cite is from the Old Testament. It pre-dates Christ and is therefore not going to show the Christian spirit that we see in the New Testament.
 
rcwhiteh said:
If I remember the verse to which you allude, it says: “Suffer not a witch to live among you.”
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In the King James version it is
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

In the New International version
18 "Do not allow a sorceress to live.

The online Douay Rheims
Wizards thou shalt not suffer to live.

The online Tanakh (which numbers it as verse 17, btw)
Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live.
Now, somewhere in the rat’s maze that is my memory, I remember reading that the word that got translated as “witch”, if taken in its original context, would be more accurately rendered “poisoner”.
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This article addresses the question of the translation (I do not know Hebrew, so I have to go with what folks who appear to have the credentials say).
theapp.appstate.edu/archives_01-02/01-12-04/letters.html

“The Hebrew word used in Exodus 22:18 (22:17 in the Hebrew Bible) is (transliterated) “mekeshepah” which is the feminine form of the word “sorcerer.” This word is used in many other instances in the text of the Hebrew Bible to mean the same thing, such as in 2 Kings 9:22 and Nahum 3:4.
The word is believed to have a cognate in the Akkadian words “kispu” and “kassaputu” which also mean sorcery. Sorcery was punishable by death under the so-called “righteous” (i.e. those that lived by the Torah or Law of Moses) kings of Israel and was also punishable by death in other parts of the Ancient Near East (see the Code of Hammurabi para. 2 and the Middle Assyrian Laws para. 47).”
 
OnlyAmbrose said:
Hey all,

Are we obligated to put witches to death, as demanded in Exodus 22:18? And would that include Wiccans?

The idea doesn’t seem to be in the Christian spirit to me, example.
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number one the book of Exodus is from the Hebrew bible, written long before the time of Christ and his spin on morality and the commandments, so to criticize the book as being unchristian is anachronistic. Number two if those who profess to be wiccans are real witches I am an astronaut.
 
It’s a bit ironic that the fact we don’t put witches to death thanks to the Incarnation is the reason to ignore the teaching on contraception. One of the reason witches were thought of as poisoners was because they made the potions for contraception and early abortion.
.
 
KarenNC said:
Interesting phrasing. Is “his spin” different than that of God, as They are taught as one and the same?
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Well Puzzle Annie is not exactly incorrect as the Jews evidently spun some of God’s original teachings. One example being that of divorce. As I recall, also something called the “lex talonis”. an eye for an eye etc.
 
rwoehmke said:
Well Puzzle Annie is not exactly incorrect as the Jews evidently spun some of God’s original teachings. One example being that of divorce. As I recall, also something called the “lex talonis”. an eye for an eye etc.
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In what way, exactly, did the Jews “spin some of God’s original teachings” on divorce? What were the original teachings and in what way did the Jews depart from this?

“An eye for an eye” --here is an example of Jewish teaching on the subject
aishdas.org/toratemet/en_mishpatim.html
 
I suspect its a combination of a bad translation, a change in the meaning of words, and yes, King James’ superstitions. (A lot of authors of his day made a dandy living off writing “witch stories” for his amusement. Others wrote in witches into other people’s stories).
These days, James would no doubt simply read:shrug: Stephen King & Co.
But certainly, this would not justify killing people over witchcraft, whatever that means in your thinking…(Think:eek: Salem Witch Trials).
 
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