Suffering in Purgatory - What form?

[chaunceygardner]

I know there have been several threads about purgatory, but don’t recall a discussion on this particular subject. It came to mind while reading some other posts and related articles on CAF (bolding in quotes is mine).

First, here is what the Catechism says (paragraph 1030):

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Here is part of an explanation about purgatory from Jimmy Akin that is referenced on CAF:

When it comes down to it, what is Church teaching is rather modest and might be summarized briefly in a few propositions, such as: (1) There is a purification that occurs after death for the saved who are in need of purification before entering heaven, (2) the faithful on earth can assist those experiencing this purification by their prayers, through Masses, etc., (3) at least some people do not need this purification before heaven, and (4) the purification involves at least some kind of suffering.

My question is: What form could the “suffering” of “purification” take? The standard image is of purification by fire, a cleansing fire, etc. The implication or mental image that people may get from the Akin article (and from other Catholic writings) is that the “suffering” involves physical punishment and pain. But could the purification process be of an emotional or mental nature (our conscience)? Such as “seeing” the many instances where we failed to live according to God’s commandments, and being made to “suffer” through the times we harmed our relationship with God by our words and actions.

We know that there are different kinds of pain; mental suffering (loss of a loved one, guilt for a harmful deed) can be as painful as physical suffering. And since it is our souls which will be purified and reconciled with God, it would make sense to me that the process would be of a similar nature.

 

[VetA]

My question is: What form could the “suffering” of “purification” take? The standard image is of purification by fire, a cleansing fire, etc. The implication or mental image that people may get from the Akin article (and from other Catholic writings) is that the “suffering” involves physical punishment and pain. But could the purification process be of an emotional or mental nature (our conscience)? Such as “seeing” the many instances where we failed to live according to God’s commandments, and being made to “suffer” through the times we harmed our relationship with God by our words and actions.

i think that the mental suffering part is interesting. i dont know if that is the official church teaching about the actual time in purgatory, but this defiantly sounds plausible.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I know there have been several threads about purgatory, but don’t recall a discussion on this particular subject. It came to mind while reading some other posts and related articles on CAF (bolding in quotes is mine).

First, here is what the Catechism says (paragraph 1030):

Here is part of an explanation about purgatory from Jimmy Akin that is referenced on CAF:

My question is: What form could the “suffering” of “purification” take? The standard image is of purification by fire, a cleansing fire, etc. The implication or mental image that people may get from the Akin article (and from other Catholic writings) is that the “suffering” involves physical punishment and pain. But could the purification process be of an emotional or mental nature (our conscience)? Such as “seeing” the many instances where we failed to live according to God’s commandments, and being made to “suffer” through the times we harmed our relationship with God by our words and actions.

We know that there are different kinds of pain; mental suffering (loss of a loved one, guilt for a harmful deed) can be as painful as physical suffering. And since it is our souls which will be purified and reconciled with God, it would make sense to me that the process would be of a similar nature.

Nobody knows for sure what Purgatory is like. But one has to remember that it comes right after one’s judgment. At that judgment, every act of one’s life is presented to him and before God. No quibbles. No rationalizations. No excuses. I suspect one would find huge flaws in his conscience and character. One would see the full consequences of every act in full; sort of like the ripples extending out from dropping a pebble into a pool. What did I perhaps do that not only affected one person but rippled through that person’s family or descendants in some way?

Now, if, as some saints have said, Purgatory is full of volunteers; people who do not want to present themselves to God in their present state, but want to present to Him as “saints”, then I suspect it’s very hard to “Purge” oneself of one’s vanities, hardboiled ways, etc, and truly transform into a saint. It might be harder than it is here, where, for various reasons we do not know the full truth of everything we do. If (as is doubtless true) I have justified myself my whole life long, purging that might be a tougher thing than fire.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

Nobody knows for sure what Purgatory is like. But one has to remember that it comes right after one’s judgment. At that judgment, every act of one’s life is presented to him and before God. No quibbles. No rationalizations. No excuses. I suspect one would find huge flaws in his conscience and character. One would see the full consequences of every act in full; sort of like the ripples extending out from dropping a pebble into a pool. What did I perhaps do that not only affected one person but rippled through that person’s family or descendants in some way?
.

How do you the bold is a fact, or is that a personal speculation? If you have some sort of church teaching on this would you mind pointing it out to me?

I know there is more to the church than just scripture, but I have thoroughly studied it and the most information I have found about the judgment comes from Matthew 25. What you typed conjures up images in my mind of “the ghost of christmas past” taking us through our life and objectively observing major events in our life. I never really pictured the judgment that way. You make it seem very personal. I always assumed, based solely on scripture, that the “sheep” would immediately be sent to the right, and the goats to the left. My interpretation is that it is instantaneous, not a long drawn out movie sequence.

Also what do you think God will make public our every action, thought, and intention in this life to everyone he created. For lack of a better term, will God pass a “freedom of information act”? I’ve always been curious about this. I would really like to know if certain people were lying to me at certain points in my life. The scripture I have found that supports the affirmative opinion, is “whatever is said in the dark will be brought to the light”…

Lastly, there that was an interesting point made about mental suffering. I think, and this is from personal experience, that it is the greatest type of suffering possible. I fear mental suffering more than I do physical pain. The Lord of course experienced the extremes of both…the agony in the garden, being betrayed by a close friend, being mocked, and being abandoned by his closest followers. The passion is such a heart breaking story.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

I forgot. I know this thread is mostly about the nature of purgatory, but does anyone have any references to the length or duration of it? Any saints mention how long the average soul spends there? I don’t think there is any official church teaching.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Nobody knows for sure what Purgatory is like. But one has to remember that it comes right after one’s judgment. At that judgment, every act of one’s life is presented to him and before God. No quibbles. No rationalizations. No excuses. I suspect one would find huge flaws in his conscience and character. One would see the full consequences of every act in full; sort of like the ripples extending out from dropping a pebble into a pool. What did I perhaps do that not only affected one person but rippled through that person’s family or descendants in some way?

Or could what you apparently describe as two steps (judgment, then purgatory) be really one continuous process? That the process of purification is just what you describe?

I like your analogy about the consequences of what we do extending out; we really don’t know what all the results of what we have done or said (and not done or said) are. Whether for good or bad. And those effects could be in various forms and take various paths. I too think we will find out the consequences of our life choices and actions when we face God.

dostoyevskyfan:

I know there is more to the church than just scripture, but I have thoroughly studied it and the most information I have found about the judgment comes from Matthew 25. What you typed conjures up images in my mind of “the ghost of christmas past” taking us through our life and objectively observing major events in our life. I never really pictured the judgment that way. You make it seem very personal. I always assumed, based solely on scripture, that the “sheep” would immediately be sent to the right, and the goats to the left. My interpretation is that it is instantaneous, not a long drawn out movie sequence.

Consider the Parable that Jesus gives us in Matthew 25:14-30. Think of the Master as God, and us as the servants. God deals with each individually. Note also that each is given “according to his ability” and each is expected to produce good in relation to what they were given. I see THAT as an indication of how it will be for us. So I think that judgment will be very personal.

Regarding the length of the process, what is time to God? We know that time is literally relative, and God is eternal. So a second to God is like a thousand years to us. So in a way the judgment could be both instantaneous and “drawn out”, perhaps appearing to us like a long dream sequence that in reality takes only seconds.

dostoyevskyfan:

Lastly, there that was an interesting point made about mental suffering. I think, and this is from personal experience, that it is the greatest type of suffering possible. I fear mental suffering more than I do physical pain. The Lord of course experienced the extremes of both…the agony in the garden, being betrayed by a close friend, being mocked, and being abandoned by his closest followers. The passion is such a heart breaking story.

That is why I wonder if the suffering in the purification process and the punishment of hell, usually portrayed as of a physical nature, would more likely be mental and emotional? Going back to my earlier point, most of the pain and suffering we have caused others (and ourselves) is psychological, not physical. And even the pain that results from physical action begins within our mind and emotions. So I could see that the process that we will go through when we meet God will be like that; we will “reap what we sow”, and as Jesus tells us in the parable in Matthew 25, in proportion to what we were given.

Peace

 

[pinctor]

Purgatory could be getting used to looking Jesus in the eye without shame

 

[joe254]

There is no suffering in purgatory !
As purgatory does not exist to my knowledge it was a story made up by theologians

enough of this scare tactic!.

 

[Desertsailor]

The only difference between Purgatory and Hell is that the people in Purgatory have hope while the people in Hell don’t.

 

[coolduude]

There is no suffering in purgatory !
As purgatory does not exist to my knowledge it was a story made up by theologians

enough of this scare tactic!.

And you call yourself a Catholic?

Anyway, to address the OP’s question: my theology teacher once tried to explain Purgatory to us. He said that its really a mystery, but the suffering may be physical pain (he said that God could possibly make the soul feel pain, even though its not connected to the body). He also said that the pain in Purgatory could be worse than the suffering in hell for some souls. I guess it really all depends on the sins commited.

And to address another question regarding the average time spent in Purgatory: I’m inclined to say that that’s a mystery known but to God. It really all depends on the individual person and their sins, etc. It could take years or decades, sometimes a mellenia. There is no ‘average’ because everyone is different and has different sins, thus everyone’s punishments are different.

 

[joe254]

I for one minute would not believe that a all loving god could send a soul to be stuck in purgatory i only can believe a purgatory is somewhere with hope and love to enter heaven but i dont like this idea of punishment in purgatory.
God nurtures and embraces souls not place them in a place were not to punish nor hurt.

 

[VetA]

There is no suffering in purgatory !
As purgatory does not exist to my knowledge it was a story made up by theologians

enough of this scare tactic!.

you sir are a heritic…

the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

Find the Catechism HERE

note Catholicism is the Religion that you have specified in you profile. the Catechism is the official book of Dogmas of the Church (they are not an option to believe) if you wish to deny the truth go to some protestant denomination and wallow in ignorance and apostasy.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Hooray for heretics like joe254. They make us think, and imagine, and consider what the kingdom of God may be like.

I tend to think more like joe than like coolduude. I don’t think purgatory is a place, but I do think there is a “time” between physical death and our entry into the kingdom of God that we refer to as purgatory. I am also tending toward the idea of Ridgerunner about the process. Think about Peter in the courtyard after Jesus was arrested. His immediate punishment was not physical pain, but rather he broke down and cried from the the emotional suffering that came with knowing he had failed to follow through on his promise to God. I think the purification process will be somewhat like that. The notion of physical torment at whatever level as a punishment for our failures is a carryover from ancient thought and from our own limited earth-bound ideas. In other words, we tend to apply what we know and do on earth to how it will be in heaven. I don’t think that is wise.

I would expect God to want us to see and understand how we lived His commandments, and how we failed to live them, so we will see and feel the consequences of our deeds and our words, for good or bad. To just inflict physical suffering for a misdeed does not in itself teach why the deed was wrong or how it brought pain and suffering to others. I see the purification process talked about in the Catechism and elsewhere as something more nuanced than simple punishment.

Great discussion so far; thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[VetA]

Hooray for heretics like joe254. They make us think, and imagine, and consider what the kingdom of God may be like.

I tend to think more like joe than like coolduude. I don’t think purgatory is a place, but I do think there is a “time” between physical death and our entry into the kingdom of God that we refer to as purgatory. I am also tending toward the idea of Ridgerunner about the process. Think about Peter in the courtyard after Jesus was arrested. His immediate punishment was not physical pain, but rather he broke down and cried from the the emotional suffering that came with knowing he had failed to follow through on his promise to God. I think the purification process will be somewhat like that. The notion of physical torment at whatever level as a punishment for our failures is a carryover from ancient thought and from our own limited earth-bound ideas. In other words, we tend to apply what we know and do on earth to how it will be in heaven. I don’t think that is wise.

I would expect God to want us to see and understand how we lived His commandments, and how we failed to live them, so we will see and feel the consequences of our deeds and our words, for good or bad. To just inflict physical suffering for a misdeed does not in itself teach why the deed was wrong or how it brought pain and suffering to others. I see the purification process talked about in the Catechism and elsewhere as something more nuanced than simple punishment.

Great discussion so far; thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

no not hooray for heresy… this is indicative of the watered down faith we [catholics] have been recieving for the last 40 or so years. it is not an option to believen in purgatory, i guess he will find out when he gets there.

 

[joe254]

VetA I certainly do not see any God within you or your your words which is disheartening for me!!!

You say I shall find out when I get there. When i get to my purgatory I will not be afraid my God is all loving and all forgiving!!

God bless

 

[VetA]

VetA I certainly do not see any God within you or your your words which is disheartening for me!!!

You say I shall find out when I get there. When i get to my purgatory I will not be afraid my God is all loving and all forgiving!!

God bless

i am not saying your going to be afraid of God, it will just be a state of suffering, i didnt even insinuate you would or should be afraid of God…

as for not seeing God in me wth do you mean by that?

 

[edwest2]

It will be a passing through a fire of purification. The all loving God is a just God. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Purgatory is a place of purification.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Peepicheep]

I would think, and have thought for a while, that most of the pain of purgatory is the pain of NOT having the Beatific Vision. To have had a glimps of God, know you can not come before Him stained with sins (of your own commiting – you KNOW you could have done better - the graces were there and you didn’t use them).

I agree with Rigerunner the purgatory is not where God places us - barring the door of heaven until we complete it, purgatory is where we place ourselves. Purgatory is where I learn, more than I have allowed myself to learned here on earth, to submit to the adorable will of God.

Here is one of my favorite quotes from C. S. Lewis on pugatory:

*Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’ - ‘Even so, sir.’ *

 

[chaunceygardner]

It will be a passing through a fire of purification. The all loving God is a just God. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Purgatory is a place of purification.

Ed

But what is meant by “passing through a fire of purification”? A fire or heat which removes impurities in our soul would not necessarily be of a physical nature. We will be separated from our bodies in any case, so it is not like we can have our feet singed with hot coals.

Could it not be a purfication of emotional contrition and then uplifting joy, as we are reminded of all our failings but then receive the forgiveness and love that God bestows on us? First we are free of the constrictions and limitations that having a physical body entails, and then our soul is freed of its earthly burdens and becomes one with God through the purification process.

 

[simple_soul]

*Dear Chauncey,

I have wondered about this. After I read what St. Theresa of Lisieux said to her sister Marie when Marie was trying to explain why one has to go through purgatory. ( St. Theresa’s response was “it’s because we do not trust God enough.” Or something along those lines.) I was left wondering if purgatory actually can and does begin here in this life.
Every time we have to learn a new way of surrendering our will to God’s will and learning to trust that He knows best can be painful at times and I do believe one can call it a purification of sorts.
Could it be just as simple as that?
I know it may sound simple but I have found that the more I try to do just that the more I realize just how hard it is to completely trust Him with no reservations.

Maybe the “passing through the fire of purification” is realizing how God completely sustains us and learning to swallow our pride and be accepting of this realization. Even the ability to swallow our pride and be totally accepting of Him to completely sustain us is a gift from Him.
I wonder if our whole purification is to just learn how to completely surrender to Him and His will for us by completely trusting in Him that we are just where He wants us to be in our journey to Him.

I know easier said than done.