Suffering in Purgatory - What form?

[Atramdace19]

Okay, I had finished Divine Comedy and I would like to focus on the second volume dealing with Purgatory.

i had a thought about this and the nature of punishment through degree of the sin. The book was categories on the seven sins and the punishment is a contrapasso (or an opposite) of the sin. For example on Pride, the sinners are punished by carrying boulders on their backs.

So I wonder if the punishments of souls are similar or whether they are different due to the degree of the sins for the sinner who committed adultery has a different degree to a person who committed murder. Thus, this purification of fire may also have different degree of heat or corporeal heat during their time to fit in with the nature of their previous faults.

This is my response on the type of punishment in purgatory though my explanation is debatable since- to be honest- i could not quite find enough doctrines dealing with Purgatory:shrug:

 

[chaunceygardner]

Maybe the “passing through the fire of purification” is realizing how God completely sustains us and learning to swallow our pride and be accepting of this realization. Even the ability to swallow our pride and be totally accepting of Him to completely sustain us is a gift from Him.

I wonder if our whole purification is to just learn how to completely surrender to Him and His will for us by completely trusting in Him that we are just where He wants us to be in our journey to Him.

Interesting ideas. We do not overcome our human weaknesses and failings so must go through the purification process after this life. We may go through all or part of the process now, if we are able to trust and place ourselves totally in God. Few of us are able to do that, and so must complete that process through what we call “purgatory”.

I think we do have a concept of this, as we feel remorse for our actions and words, and can suffer for them. This penance of sorts may be a precursor of the purification process that occurs after we physically die. Of course, there are some who feel little or no remorse for what they do, so the purificaiton and learning curve for them may be a lot steeper. And for others it will be quite quick and easy, as they already “get it”, and have gone through some of that process in this life.
Atramdace 19:

So I wonder if the punishments of souls are similar or whether they are different due to the degree of the sins for the sinner who committed adultery has a different degree to a person who committed murder. Thus, this purification of fire may also have different degree of heat or corporeal heat during their time to fit in with the nature of their previous faults.

I think this is the more traditional concept of purgatory and hell as physical punishment and purification. In thinking about what Jesus says to and about the sinners He forgives, it seems that it is not the type of sin that is important, but how we deal with it, and what we do to reform ourselves. Or if we even want to change. I like what Simple Soul is saying, which is similar to my original point. We must be truly aware and remorseful for our failure. And often, a person’s conscience can cause them more remorse than anything the Church could impose. I know of stupid things I did many years ago I still regret and for which I still pray for forgiveness. Perhaps this is what the purification process is like; not physical punishment that varies depending on the offense, but a true spiritual purification that wipes those failures and regrets away and brings us into harmony with God.

 

[BlueSapphire]

I would recommend reading the following link!

The Secret of the Poor Souls in Purgatory

 

[simple_soul]

I think we do have a concept of this, as we feel remorse for our actions and words, and can suffer for them. This penance of sorts may be a precursor of the purification process that occurs after we physically die.

*In understanding this I wonder if the completion of this purification is trusting in God’s unconditional love and forgiveness. It is one thing to feel remorse for our actions and words that are sinful and make restitution for them. Yes I agree that we do suffer from them mentally and physically and in some cases this might be punishment enough. But I wonder if when we do not trust in God’s forgiveness we cause ourselves even more harm by “wallowing” in our remorse.

After reading the link from Bluesaphire I am also left wondering if this is what causes us to stay in the purgative state. We have to accept and trust that through Jesus Christ our sins are forgiven.

It is almost like we see God and realize how unworthy we are and it takes time for us to realize, trust and accept that it is God who makes us worthy of Himself. We just need to swallow our pride and put our complete trust in Him and His unconditional love for us no matter how unworthy we believe we are.
*

We must be truly aware and remorseful for our failure. And often, a person’s conscience can cause them more remorse than anything the Church could impose. I know of stupid things I did many years ago I still regret and for which I still pray for forgiveness. Perhaps this is what the purification process is like; not physical punishment that varies depending on the offense, but a true spiritual purification that wipes those failures and regrets away and brings us into harmony with God.

*I believe, and I am sure there are more knowledgeable people who could clarify this better, that it is the unconditional love that God showed use through His sacrifice of Himself on calvary that wipes those failures and regrets away. We just have to be accepting of it and willing partakers in it. But no matter how hard we try to follow His example, because of our sinful nature, we will always fail. This is why I believe we have to accept that He is the one who makes us worthy of Himself and we have to completely trust in His love and mercy. Without Him we are nothing.

 

[Windfish]

I would recommend reading the following link!

The Secret of the Poor Souls in Purgatory

THANK YOU very much! I needed this. This has given me much hope for sinners to enter into God’s Kingdom. Lord God, you are truly GREAT.

 

[JackQ]

I know there have been several threads about purgatory, but don’t recall a discussion on this particular subject. It came to mind while reading some other posts and related articles on CAF (bolding in quotes is mine).

First, here is what the Catechism says (paragraph 1030):

Here is part of an explanation about purgatory from Jimmy Akin that is referenced on CAF:

My question is: What form could the “suffering” of “purification” take? The standard image is of purification by fire, a cleansing fire, etc. The implication or mental image that people may get from the Akin article (and from other Catholic writings) is that the “suffering” involves physical punishment and pain. But could the purification process be of an emotional or mental nature (our conscience)? Such as “seeing” the many instances where we failed to live according to God’s commandments, and being made to “suffer” through the times we harmed our relationship with God by our words and actions.

We know that there are different kinds of pain; mental suffering (loss of a loved one, guilt for a harmful deed) can be as painful as physical suffering. And since it is our souls which will be purified and reconciled with God, it would make sense to me that the process would be of a similar nature.

How could any suffering in Purgatory be physical? People in Purgatory don’t have any bodies.

 

[ALISANDRO]

I know there have been several threads about purgatory, but don’t recall a discussion on this particular subject. It came to mind while reading some other posts and related articles on CAF (bolding in quotes is mine).

First, here is what the Catechism says (paragraph 1030):

Here is part of an explanation about purgatory from Jimmy Akin that is referenced on CAF:

My question is: What form could the “suffering” of “purification” take? The standard image is of purification by fire, a cleansing fire, etc. The implication or mental image that people may get from the Akin article (and from other Catholic writings) is that the “suffering” involves physical punishment and pain. But could the purification process be of an emotional or mental nature (our conscience)? Such as “seeing” the many instances where we failed to live according to God’s commandments, and being made to “suffer” through the times we harmed our relationship with God by our words and actions.

We know that there are different kinds of pain; mental suffering (loss of a loved one, guilt for a harmful deed) can be as painful as physical suffering. And since it is our souls which will be purified and reconciled with God, it would make sense to me that the process would be of a similar nature.

Hi chaunceygardner, for your question to have any meaning, or merit for a non-Catholic like me you would first have to prove the existence of "purgatory " with quotes from Scripture. I know of no such Scriptural evidence, but I am willing to be corrected if you do.

ALISANDRO

 

[chaunceygardner]

How could any suffering in Purgatory be physical? People in Purgatory don’t have any bodies.

Exactly my point. But physical suffering is the way it is usually portrayed in art and in writings.

ALISANDRO:

Hi chaunceygardner, for your question to have any meaning, or merit for a non-Catholic like me you would first have to prove the existence of "purgatory " with quotes from Scripture. I know of no such Scriptural evidence, but I am willing to be corrected if you do.

That is the second part of my thesis: That purgatory does not exist as a place, but is a phase or condition that occurs after we die. It is a process that occurs with our souls, it is not an actual place where we go between earth and heaven (or in the other direction). I used the word “purgatory” since we all can understood to what it is referring, even though we may or not believe in its existence.

I know of no scriptural evidence either, only the somewhat vague statements found in various texts that we will be judged after we die. I think the idea of purgatory as it has been understood over the years is mostly due to the Catholic Church.

Think about when we did something wrong as a child. The punishment would often be something that would makes us “feel the pain” in an emotional or psychological way; to teach us that we did something wrong and to hopefully get us to not do it again. Sometimes we didn’t know we did wrong until afterward. Sometimes we didn’t get “caught”. But there may have been times when we “punished” ourselves because we knew we had failed (our conscience in action).

When we die there is no opportunity to get it right again (unless one believes in re-incarnation). And whether we knew we failed or whether we were “caught” will be a non-issue, since God will remind us of everything.

But I don’t think the process only involves the negative. Besides seeing the bad things, we will also see the good, the times we actually did the right thing without prompting or being told. We will know the ecstasy of feeling God’s pleasure for the good deeds, and feel His disappointment for the not so good. If we can recall how it was to feel the displeasure of our parents for a misdeed, we can assume the disappointment of God will weight upon us even more. But the reverse is also true.

How this will occur is not really important, and should not have any bearing on how we live our faith. I see this as a process, as a purification of our souls. Some think it will be with physical punishment and suffering; whereas I see it as an internal, emotional process that will bring our souls to complete communion with God.
SIMPLE SOUL:

But no matter how hard we try to follow His example, because of our sinful nature, we will always fail. This is why I believe we have to accept that He is the one who makes us worthy of Himself and we have to completely trust in His love and mercy. Without Him we are nothing.

I would agree with this and in general with the ideas in the rest of your post. However, I would take issue with the statement “we will always fail” to properly follow His example. I think we all do fail at some time or other, but not “always”. Many people faithfully follow God’s word and commands most of the time, and likely try to do so all the time. It is like saying because you get two or three questions wrong on a fifty question test you have failed. You have only failed to be perfect, but you have not failed in total. And even though we may never forgive ourselves for some of the things we do wrong, we must have faith that God will.

Otherwise, life is hopeless.

NOTE: Sorry for the delay in responding. I was away from the internet for much of the holiday weekend, busy with family activities. I hope you all had a great Independence Day, and gave thanks to those who brought us our freedom.

 

[simple_soul]

Hi Chauncey,
Good to see you back. I hope you had a wonderful holiday weekend with your family.

I would agree with this and in general with the ideas in the rest of your post.

I will have to say I agree in general with your thesis. Especially the part that purgatory is more of a “state of being” than a “place.” I apologize I did not mention this earlier. I have always wondered about purgatory and since you started this thread I just thought I would bounce around and share a few of my thoughts with you. I hope you do not mind?

However, I would take issue with the statement “we will always fail” to properly follow His example. I think we all do fail at some time or other, but not “always”. Many people faithfully follow God’s word and commands most of the time, and likely try to do so all the time. It is like saying because you get two or three questions wrong on a fifty question test you have failed. You have only failed to be perfect, but you have not failed in total.

I believe I understand what you are saying here. But, I believe that it is only through God’s grace that we can even attempt to faithfully follow His Word and commands.
To use your analogy. It is like God giving us the grace/ability to even have knowledge of the test. Then He gives us the grace/ability to get any of the test right. Then He completes the test for us. I guess what I am trying to say is that we on our own fail. Through God’s grace we do not fail all the time. I believe when we fail the most is when we stop accepting and acknowledging God’s graces for everything.

And even though we may never forgive ourselves for some of the things we do wrong, we must have faith that God will.

Hmmm…this leads me to another thought and question. If we accept God’s forgiveness for ourselves and we understand and believe that He does and has forgiven us, should we not also forgive ourselves?

Otherwise, life is hopeless.

I do not believe that life is ever hopeless. Although I know it can “seem” that way sometimes. I believe that through God all things are possible and that it is through Jesus Christ that we have hope.

NOTE: Sorry for the delay in responding. I was away from the internet for much of the holiday weekend, busy with family activities. ** I hope you all had a great Independence Day, and gave thanks to those who brought us our freedom**.

I hope you did as well, and thank you for reminding me of a few people I know that I still need to thank.

 

[chaunceygardner]

I will have to say I agree in general with your thesis. Especially the part that purgatory is more of a “state of being” than a “place.” I apologize I did not mention this earlier. I have always wondered about purgatory and since you started this thread I just thought I would bounce around and share a few of my thoughts with you. I hope you do not mind?

You are quite welcome to add your thoughts.

I believe I understand what you are saying here. But, I believe that it is only through God’s grace that we can even attempt to faithfully follow His Word and commands.
To use your analogy. It is like God giving us the grace/ability to even have knowledge of the test. Then He gives us the grace/ability to get any of the test right. Then He completes the test for us. I guess what I am trying to say is that we on our own fail. Through God’s grace we do not fail all the time. I believe when we fail the most is when we stop accepting and acknowledging God’s graces for everything.

Again, I like what you are saying, with one small tweak. I would see God as not actually completing the test, but more like correcting the test. And the joy of it all is that the test can be corrected as we go along and we can keep retaking it; God allows us “do-overs” and we don’t necessarily have to wait until we die to get the correct answers. We can find those answers during our journey in the grace of God. There have been many saints who would have failed the test initially but through finding the Way “Aced it” in the end.

this leads me to another thought and question. If we accept God’s forgiveness for ourselves and we understand and believe that He does and has forgiven us, should we not also forgive ourselves?

We should, but sometimes it can be quite difficult. We usually don’t forget what we did wrong, and our conscience will always be there to remind us. I personally have found it often easier to forgive others for wrongs done to me than it is to forgive myself for what I did to others. Perhaps my conscience is over scrupulous, but I don’t think I am alone in that.

I do not believe that life is ever hopeless. Although I know it can “seem” that way sometimes. I believe that through God all things are possible and that it is through Jesus Christ that we have hope.

That was my point above the statement you are referring to. Our faith in God and in redemption for our failures gives us hope, no matter the situation.

 

[vz71]

How could any suffering in Purgatory be physical? People in Purgatory don’t have any bodies.

This has been causing me problems for some time now, and I finally was able to put words to it.

You do not directly feel pain.
Your brain interprets what the nerves are telling it.
In a sense, you are feeling what you tell yourself you feel.

Consioder the many cases where someone under deep hypnosis can be told that they do not feel pain, and they do not.

Given the brain is merely interpreting pain, then wouldn’t it follow that wherever our consciousness goes, the same sensations can be experienced?

 

[didymus]

I would imagine that the pain of Purgatory is spiritual.

By way of analogy, think of psychological therapy and how it can be painful but ultimately beneficial to confront all your “issues”. Maybe the process of purgation involves a lifetime examination, reviewing every wrong choice you’ve ever made.

On CA answers Jimmy Akin and others have said that we don’t know if purgatory takes place in an instant or over time or over time nor how time operates there. We would be outside regular time but not yet in eternity.

 

[chaunceygardner]

I would imagine that the pain of Purgatory is spiritual.

By way of analogy, think of psychological therapy and how it can be painful but ultimately beneficial to confront all your “issues”. Maybe the process of purgation involves a lifetime examination, reviewing every wrong choice you’ve ever made.

On CA answers Jimmy Akin and others have said that we don’t know if purgatory takes place in an instant or over time or over time nor how time operates there. We would be outside regular time but not yet in eternity.

I like the idea about time; it won’t be anything like what we experience now.

And I like your thoughts about the process, but I would add that it isn’t just wrong choices, but every choice,including the good ones (as Jesus relates in Matthew 25).

vz71:

Given the brain is merely interpreting pain, then wouldn’t it follow that wherever our consciousness goes, the same sensations can be experienced?

Yes, I agree, and can you imagine what those sensations will be like when they are shorn of all their earthly impediments.

Thanks to you both for your contributions.

 

[simple_soul]

You are quite welcome to add your thoughts.

Thank you, you are very kind.

Again, I like what you are saying, with one small tweak. I would see God as not actually completing the test, but more like correcting the test.

I will have to ponder this some more. I believe God to be doing both. Completing and correcting us. They way I see it is through His corrections, providing we accept them and willingly go along with them, He will be able to complete us by molding us into who and what He wants us to be.

And the joy of it all is that the test can be corrected as we go along and we can keep retaking it; God allows us “do-overs” and we don’t necessarily have to wait until we die to get the correct answers. We can find those answers during our journey in the grace of God. There have been many saints who would have failed the test initially but through finding the Way “Aced it” in the end.

We gotta thank God for allowing “do-overs.” God knows I would never make it if He didn’t.

We should, but sometimes it can be quite difficult. We usually don’t forget what we did wrong, and our conscience will always be there to remind us. I personally have found it often easier to forgive others for wrongs done to me than it is to forgive myself for what I did to others. Perhaps my conscience is over scrupulous, but I don’t think I am alone in that.

No, you are not alone in your scruples. I can relate and I believe an eye opener for me was trying to help some one else forgive themselves.

That was my point above the statement you are referring to. Our faith in God and in redemption for our failures gives us hope, no matter the situation.

I agree with your point. I was just trying to clarify that I believe even having this faith in God is a gift from Him too.

 

[chaunceygardner]

I believe God to be doing both. Completing and correcting us. They way I see it is through His corrections, providing we accept them and willingly go along with them, He will be able to complete us by molding us into who and what He wants us to be.

You are correct. I believe we are saying the same thing but using somewhat different words. The correction process also completes us and brings us into full unity with God. And we may resist those corrections while on earth, but once we physically die we will have no choice in the matter.

We gotta thank God for allowing “do-overs.” God knows I would never make it if He didn’t.

I think He knows that about all of us, and is a critical aspect of what Jesus told us.

No, you are not alone in your scruples. I can relate and I believe an eye opener for me was trying to help some one else forgive themselves.

That would be a good way to learn this. We have to realize we can’t do it all on our own, which is why God gives us help through others. We have to learn to recognize it and be open to it, and in turn be that help for those in need.

I agree with your point. I was just trying to clarify that I believe even having this faith in God is a gift from Him too.

That hope does not come from an external source, but from within our souls and, as you say, ultimately from God. The problem is that we must recognize the gift and make a conscious effort to let it work within us.

 

[simple_soul]

You are correct. ** I believe we are saying the same thing but using somewhat different words.** The correction process also completes us and brings us into full unity with God. And we may resist those corrections while on earth, but once we physically die we will have no choice in the matter.

I was beginning to think this was the case but wanted to make sure.

I think He knows that about all of us, and is a critical aspect of what Jesus told us.

That would be a good way to learn this. We have to realize we can’t do it all on our own, which is why God gives us help through others. We have to learn to recognize it and be open to it, and in turn be that help for those in need.

Agreed.

That hope does not come from an external source, but from within our souls and, as you say, ultimately from God. The problem is that we must recognize the gift and make a conscious effort to let it work within us.

*Hmm…
I believe I have understood that Hope along with Love is within the very core of my soul. It is the Rock that I cling to. I do not believe I understand it as just ultimately coming from God but God Himself. It is like He gave us a piece of Himself to us so that even in our deepest recesses we can find Him. I believe it is His way of communicating with each one of us directly. So far I have not found anything to refute this understanding. I am not saying the refute is not out there it is just that I have not found it yet to try and understand it more clearly.
I do agree that the problem is that we have a hard time recognizing this gift and making the conscience effort to not only let it work within us but also work with it. Like your reference to the Saints earlier. I do believe they are great examples of how to do this. They are shinning examples of how to not only emulate God through their lives but to let God shine through themselves to us. *

 

[chaunceygardner]

Hmm…
I believe I have understood that Hope along with Love is within the very core of my soul. It is the Rock that I cling to. I do not believe I understand it as just ultimately coming from God but God Himself. It is like He gave us a piece of Himself to us so that even in our deepest recesses we can find Him. I believe it is His way of communicating with each one of us directly. So far I have not found anything to refute this understanding. I am not saying the refute is not out there it is just that I have not found it yet to try and understand it more clearly.

I do agree that the problem is that we have a hard time recognizing this gift and making the conscience effort to not only let it work within us but also work with it. Like your reference to the Saints earlier. I do believe they are great examples of how to do this. They are shining examples of how to not only emulate God through their lives but to let God shine through themselves to us.

You must have recalled another discussion we had on a past thread about this very topic. I do seem to be contradicting myself for which I apologize. My belief is that our souls ARE a part of God, since we are told that He is in us and we are in Him, and that the Kingdom of God is within us. My sincere belief is that in order to find God we must look within ourselves and within others, since God will be found in their souls as well. I guess I didn’t want to get into a debate in this thread about the nature of our souls (in that prior thread I was blasted for my beliefs and called all kinds of nasty names).

But my belief about our souls does coincide with my idea of what the purification process will be. When our soul is separated from our physical body, “it” (which is still our essence) will be purified. I therefore don’t see it as punishment or suffering, but as a process of becoming fully aware of and in tune with God. I think we see it in a very similar way.

My original point is that the traditional concept of suffering through some physical punishment does not make sense, for reasons mentioned by several people on this thread. We will be beyond physicality. I see it as a purification process in which we “see” and “feel” the effects of our words and deeds (good or bad) and that this will cause us to experience spiritual/emotional highs and lows that resemble what we go through now when our conscience kicks in. After we die, this process will become more intense and complete.

Thanks for reminding me of that earlier thread and helping me clarify what I wrote.

 

[simple_soul]

You must have recalled another discussion we had on a past thread about this very topic. I do seem to be contradicting myself for which I apologize. My belief is that our souls ARE a part of God, since we are told that He is in us and we are in Him, and that the Kingdom of God is within us. My sincere belief is that in order to find God we must look within ourselves and within others, since God will be found in their souls as well. I guess I didn’t want to get into a debate in this thread about the nature of our souls (in that prior thread I was blasted for my beliefs and called all kinds of nasty names).

Yes, I do recall the other thread and I do most sincerely apologize if this thread does turn into a debate about the nature of our souls. It most sincerely is not my intention. But I do believe that in understanding the nature of our souls it will help us understand the hows and whys of our purification. Hmm…maybe a thread on the nature of our souls is in order.

But my belief about our souls does coincide with my idea of what the purification process will be. When our soul is separated from our physical body, “it” (which is still our essence) will be purified. I therefore don’t see it as punishment or suffering, but as a process of becoming fully aware of and in tune with God. I think we see it in a very similar way.

*Yes, I do believe we do see this in a very similar way. *

My original point is that the traditional concept of suffering through some physical punishment does not make sense, for reasons mentioned by several people on this thread. We will be beyond physicality.

I agree with your point and the shared reasons.

I see it as a purification process in which we “see” and “feel” the effects of our words and deeds (good or bad) and that this will cause us to experience spiritual/emotional highs and lows that resemble what we go through now when our conscience kicks in. After we die, this process will become more intense and complete.

I also agree with this. The reason I was looking for some clarifications is because I do sincerely believe this process can start while we are still in our physical state. I had just never really thought out and put into words the process of the hows and whys it can start in this life. I do sincerely believe the more we learn to let the purification start in this life the more prepared we will be for the intensity and completion of it in the next life. Also, it may lessen the “time” we will spend adjusting to it.

Thanks for reminding me of that earlier thread and helping me clarify what I wrote.

No, thank* you *for letting me use your thread to help me understand this and clarify this more clearly in my head.

 

[Waiting]

I’ve just come across this thread. I believe that we have an answer here as to what form Purgatory takes. In MIST OF MERCY by Anne, a lay apostle, we learn a great deal about Purgatory. Jesus takes Anne through some mystical experiences in Purgatory. It would take too much space to detail here what she experienced, but if you read the book you will be enlightened, as I was. This book can be purchased from Direction for Our Times 708-496-9300, or contact www.directionforourtimes.org. Anne describes the prayers the Poor Souls pray, and the remorse for their actions on earth which were against the will of God. Purgatory, you will find, is indeed a great mercy of God. The title of the book gives the reader a glimpse of what Purgatory is. For those inclined to doubt, so did I until I read many of the messages from Jesus to us. When I learned that Sr. Briege McKenna, the healer, backed Anne, in addition to Anne’s own Bishop, I became a believer, too. All of Anne’s writings are approved by her Bishop, and are in full accord with the Magisterium. I found a real treasure when I learned of Jesus’ current messages to us.

 

[csx333]

I suffer about every moment of the day with chronic pain. My consolation is the promises our Lord made, so many of them about never leaving us, not worrying. Yet I fell I fall short of always following Him. I also ask the Blessed Virgin and St. Jude to intercede for me. Is it possible that some type of purgation can be experienced on earth, during our lifetime?