Suffering in Purgatory - What form?

[mo3]

Hi chaunceygardner, for your question to have any meaning, or merit for a non-Catholic like me you would first have to prove the existence of "purgatory " with quotes from Scripture. I know of no such Scriptural evidence, but I am willing to be corrected if you do.

ALISANDRO

1 Corinthians 3:14–15: “If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” You see, the Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. A person at death who still has personal faults is prevented from entering into heaven because he is not completely purified. He must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).

Matthew 12:32 says that some people who sin “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” This shoes that there are some sins that will be forgiven in the age to come. If there is no purification after death, then this passage doesn’t make much sense.

2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead

Psalm 66:12 Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. {see also Isaiah 1:25-26}

Micah 7:8-9 Rejoice not over me, O mine enemy; when I fall, I shall rise; when I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a light to me. I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance.

Malachi 3:2-4 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the Lord. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.
God bless.

 

[ProPro]

Is there any biblical basis for the belief in purgatory or is it all purely based on the traditions of men? ie; the catholic church

Mark 7:13
Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do.

Romans 8:1
There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh.

 

[csx333]

Your argument is weak, at the best. The first verse about traditions refers to the Jews keeping the Law and adding their own requirements. The second verse has nothing to do with judgment and/or purgatory. BTW I am a “no-longer Lutheran” who sought Truth and found it at the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

 

[lutherlic]

I suffer about every moment of the day with chronic pain. My consolation is the promises our Lord made, so many of them about never leaving us, not worrying. Yet I fell I fall short of always following Him. I also ask the Blessed Virgin and St. Jude to intercede for me. Is it possible that some type of purgation can be experienced on earth, during our lifetime?

There is a good thread here that addresses your question.

 

[csx333]

Thank you for the link. It is very relevant and helpful. God Bless,

 

[lutherlic]

The only difference between Purgatory and Hell is that the people in Purgatory have hope while the people in Hell don’t.

Not really. Purgatory is not punishment but purification. We can only speculate on the nature of it, but it is not hell. The Catechism says in 1031 “The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” Personally, I prefer to think of it as a hospital for the soul.

I know it is common for folks to refer to having “hope” in purgatory but I think that is not really accurate either. We here in the Church Militant have only “hope” as we are not yet judged. Those of the Church Suffering (purgatory) need no hope as they are already assured of their place in the Church Triumphant (heaven).

 

[lutherlic]

I forgot. I know this thread is mostly about the nature of purgatory, but does anyone have any references to the length or duration of it? Any saints mention how long the average soul spends there? I don’t think there is any official church teaching.

The concept of “time in purgatory” is confusing to me too. There may be no temporal component at all to purgatory. If there is one, we here could have no real concept of its length - but however long it is, it is finite and in the scope of eternity would be but a moment.

 

[mo3]

Is there any biblical basis for the belief in purgatory or is it all purely based on the traditions of men? ie; the catholic church.

Many, many bible verses as outlined in Post #41

How about the tradition of men that handed you the bible? How about the tradition of men that translated your bible? How about the tradition of men that preach and interpret your bible?

Mark 7:13
Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do. .

2 Thes 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Can you quote chapter and verse that says your verse (Mark 7:13) has primacy over 2 Thes 2:15?

Romans 8:1
There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh.

The Catholic Church agrees with this verse 100%.

God bless.

 

[sonettegarbin]

There is no suffering in purgatory !
As purgatory does not exist to my knowledge it was a story made up by theologians

enough of this scare tactic!.

Hi Joe, this is how I understand what would happen. It is radically important that we gather together that which is not perishable. Do what Jesus instructed us to do.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.
Matt 6:19-21 (ASV)

Otherwise this will happen,

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 But if any man buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 each man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.
1 Cor 3:11-15 (ASV)

Another translation.

11 After all, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that is already laid, and that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 People may build on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw. 13 The day will make what each one does clearly visible because fire will reveal it. That fire will determine what kind of work each person has done. 14 If what a person has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If his work is burned up, he will suffer {the loss}. However, he will be saved, though it will be like going through a fire.
1 Cor 3:11-15 (GW)

Reading the above, I personally think the test will be a short period - not solar time …

 

[20purple02]

I would like to know why the word “purgatory” is not found in the Bible? Is there a different word that means the same thing and I don’t know what it is?

I believe that when Jesus died on the cross he died for all sins, past, present and to come. If this is true then why would anyone who is saved have to spend time in purgatory?

I was raised Catholic and now, as a middle age adult, would like to become more knowable.

Thanks for any answers and is there a wonderful book someone could recommend on purgatory?

Gail

 

[mo3]

I would like to know why the word “purgatory” is not found in the Bible? Is there a different word that means the same thing and I don’t know what it is?

There are many words not found in the Bible. “Trinity” is not found in the Bible but most Christians believe this concept. “Christian” is not found in the Bible either. But the concepts of Trinity, Christian, and Purgatory are in the Bible. This does not mean they are explicitly described in a way anyone can easily understand. The concept of the Trinity is harder to extrapolate from the Bible than Purgatory.

The Bible was not intended to give explicit answers on all the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus never told anyone to write anything. When someone asks: Where is that in the Bible?, this is usually coming from a tradition that teaches all important theological teachings are explicitly explained in the Bible. This is not the proper understanding of the Bible.

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”— 2 Pet. 1-20

" For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher?"— Rom. 10:13-14

I believe that when Jesus died on the cross he died for all sins, past, present and to come. If this is true then why would anyone who is saved have to spend time in purgatory?

Jesus died once and for all for everyone and every sin. This does not mean His death is automatically applied to everyone and for future sins. If it was, then we would not have to do anything including believing in Jesus, following the commandments, or read the bible.

Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

Thanks for any answers and is there a wonderful book someone could recommend on purgatory?

For quick answers visit: Catholic.com. It is a reliable website. BE CAREFUL. There are many websites that masquerade themselves as having the true teachings of Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church.

I will keep you in my prayers. God bless.

 

[melclements]

I have read with a great deal of interest the questions and answers concerning purgatory. My question is this: What does one have to do to be elgible for purgatory?
If one has been baptized, confirmed, participated in the eucharist, but has sinned grieviously and dies without confession or absolution, will he be admitted to purgatory?
I would truly like to hear some learned answers from this forum
Yours in Christ,
Mel Clements

 

[fhansen]

I think the suffering in purgatory is all about our wills. The struggle is whether or not we’ll continue to think there’s something besides God that can make us happy or whether we’ll fully embrace God as the source of our total happiness.

This is painful because, until we finally let go of our own agenda and attachments, we can’t be happy. At the same time, as we grow in love and appreciation for God, we miss Him all the more.

Another way of putting it is that purgatory is necessary if the prodigal still hasn’t wised up enough to return home to his father.

Again, I think our wills are to be purified as we finally grow in the wisdom to want nothing other than God, loving Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength- because we choose to.

 

[BlueSapphire]

St. Faustina on Purgatory.

Purgatory

 

[zielwolf]

no not hooray for heresy… this is indicative of the watered down faith we [catholics] have been recieving for the last 40 or so years. it is not an option to believen in purgatory, i guess he will find out when he gets there.

Hi VetA - A hypothetical: Considering the tone of your posts, I wonder what would make you happier? If when Joe passed on God said to him, well you did not believe in purgatory but you did believe in Me, therefore I’m not going to tear down your faith by making you suffer the agony of its fires there. Or, if God said to him: you wicked heretic. You will pay dearly and suffer horribly and long for your lack of faith in my purgatory.

Just a hypothetical, remember.

 

[ProPro]

How did catholics become so deceived into believing in purgatory? When did this man-made concept start?

Why do catholics believe that the papacy is of God? History shows us that there were more than one pope at a time competing with each other and some popes had homosexual affairs and one even sold the papacy to someone else!

Several popes died before taking office. If the papacy was truly of God, why would God make them popes knowing that they wouldn’t even be in office?

Didn’t the catholic church kill people in the name of God? And didn’t they side with the nazis against the jews? I remember pope John Paul 2nd apologizing to the jewish nation. I read the other day the catholics actually helped the convicted nazis escape Europe.

I know that’s alot of questions but i’d like to get clarity from someone with more knowledge. Thanks

 

[vz71]

How did catholics… ?

Why do catholics…?
why would God …?

Didn’t the catholic church…?
And didn’t …?

I know that’s alot of questions but i’d like to get clarity from someone with more knowledge. Thanks

I submit that you should open seperate threads for each of your questions.
You will get much more comprehensive answers to each rather then cursory answers to a shotgun of questions.

 

[mo3]

How did catholics become so deceived into believing in purgatory?

Catholics are not deceived about purgatory. Please see the following verse:

1 Corinthians 3:14–15: “If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

When did this man-made concept start?

Purgatory is not a man made concept. The apostles and the Early Church Fathers believed in Purgatory. Here are a few additional verses:

2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead

Why do catholics believe that the papacy is of God?

Jesus Christ instituted the papacy:
Mt 16:18-19 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus was quoting the OT Isaiah 22:22. Jesus gave the “keys” to Peter which gave Peter the authority in the same way authority was given in Isaiah 22:22.

History shows us that there were more than one pope at a time competing with each other and some popes had homosexual affairs and one even sold the papacy to someone else!

Yes Popes are sinners. Some claimed to be Pope when they were not really the Pope and other Popes committed horrible sins.
Jesus picked Peter to be an apostle yet Peter sinned terribly when he denied Jesus 3 times. Do you think Jesus made a mistake in picking a sinner like Peter?

Please give me the name of a church that does not have leaders who sin?

Several popes died before taking office. If the papacy was truly of God, why would God make them popes knowing that they wouldn’t even be in office?

We cannot understand why God does everything. Why did Jesus pick Judas if He knew Judas would betray him?

Didn’t the Catholic Church kill people in the name of God?

This is false. If anyone claims this to be true, ask them to prove it by providing an “Official Church Document.”

And didn’t they side with the nazis against the jews?

This is false. If anyone claims this to be true, ask them to prove it by providing an “Official Church Document.”

I remember pope John Paul 2nd apologizing to the jewish nation.

He was not apologizing for siding with the Nazis.

I read the other day the catholics actually helped the convicted nazis escape Europe.

If an individual Catholic did this, then he must answer for it. The Catholic Church never did this.

I know that’s alot of questions but i’d like to get clarity from someone with more knowledge. Thanks

Sorry but I have given you quick answers to very complicated questions.

God bless.

 

[mo3]

Hi VetA - A hypothetical: Considering the tone of your posts, I wonder what would make you happier? If when Joe passed on God said to him, well you did not believe in purgatory but you did believe in Me, therefore I’m not going to tear down your faith by making you suffer the agony of its fires there. .

Your hypothetical has many flaws. God would not judge base upon what would make a human happier.

When you say “believe in Me”, I hope you mean believe in “all of Me”, which is “all the gospel”, not just one verse from the Bible. Remember the first words of Jesus in His public ministry: Mk 1:15 - “Repent, and believe in the gospel.” The gospel is more than 1 verse (like Johm3:16) from the Bible, it is the entire gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Or, if God said to him: you wicked heretic. You will pay dearly and suffer horribly and long for your lack of faith in my purgatory.

Just a hypothetical, remember.

Only God can judge someone’s faith. Faith is more than just believing in 1 verse. A true faith is one that is lived out in daily life.

How will God reward someone for having a partial faith? What if someone says they believed in Jesus but did not believe in the entire gospel, the 10 commandments, or helping their neighbor?

God bless.

 

[lutherlic]

Didn’t the catholic church kill people in the name of God? And didn’t they side with the nazis against the jews? I remember pope John Paul 2nd apologizing to the jewish nation. I read the other day the catholics actually helped the convicted nazis escape Europe.

Father Longenecker wrote about this in his blog recently (follow the links he gives for details). Quoting from a linked article:

The charge against Pius XII is slander against a good man and nothing more. After the “final solution” leaked out, the New York Times headlined, on Aug. 6, 1942: “Pope is said to plead for Jews listed for removal from France.” It was Israeli consul to Italy Rabbi Pinchas Lapide who researched Yad Vashem in Jerusalem and reported that Pope Pius XII led efforts to save 860,000 Jews, “more than all other churches, religious institutions and rescue organizations put together.”