Suffering: why do we suffer?

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My thesis was on C. S. Lewis’s Till We Have Faces, but I dealt with the theme of suffering as an expression of love.
One of the main ideas in the novel is that suffering is primarily psychological–that a person who lives a life that is successful by all worldly standards may feel that she is the most miserable person on earth, and think she is suffering horribly.

So, in analyzing that theme, I discussed the different ways suffering is possible, and how they derive from original sin.

Now, as for my analysis of religion, I choose Catholicism over Protestantism because of its treatment of suffering. Other religions (e.g., Buddhism) understand how suffering is a necessity for spiritual progress, though they understand it differently. But I really should have specified Catholic as opposed to a Protestant–my reasons for being a Christian are basically the same as the ones outlined by C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity (which, in many ways, is a modernization of City of God). Hence, as I noted above, it’s not a topic for this discussion.

And what’s shocking about what I said about atheists? I don’t understand what the point of atheism is. It’s essentially a belief in despair. There is no point to human existence if we’re merely animals.

If we’re merely animals, then “anything goes,” which is just the belief system of the Left. It’s OK to euthanize a dog, because a dog doesn’t have an immortal soul. But if we have immortal souls, then we can’t do that stuff to ourselves.

If we’re immortal, with an immortal destiny, then it’s worth putting up with 5 or 20 or 30 or 80 years of constant pain.
If we’re immortal, with an immortal destiny, then the life of a stillborn baby is of infinite worth.
If we’re not, then that dead baby is just biomass.

In the toughest times, like once or twice a week, if not a day, I come very close to despair. I feel worthless. I’m in horrible pain, I can’t do the things I want to do with my life, and I don’t matter much in a worldly perspective. If I were an atheist, there’d be no reason to deal with that pain.

And, from others who enduring my condition and other lifelong degenerative health problems, I know that most people think the same way. As they say, “There are no atheists in foxholes.”

I know very few people with serious disabilities and health conditiosn who are “atheists.” A lot of people who believe in New Age and other weird belief systems, but no atheists.

You cannot be an atheist and deal with stuff like this.
 
reen12 said:
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up
what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church…
Colossians 1: 24

reen12
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I never quite understood this quote from Scripture? Why is Paul making up what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings?

All of these responses help, we can grow but the question of “why” still remains.
 
Marietta,
Apparently, you don’t know what it is like to suffer from a serious health condition. In this, let me suggest you study the life of St. Therese of Lisieux, who felt a great temptation to suicide during her battle with TB, and advised her Sisters not to leave her alone with her pain medicatin.

I thirst 4 YOU,

The “why” is love. Suffering conditions us to be more loving and selfless. It also allows us to participate in Christ’s suffering and become more Christ-like, which is essentially the same thing.

Is there some deeper thing you’re looking for here ?
 
marietta said:
Beautiful! My Webster’s New World from 1964 didn’t have “salvific” in it.
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Good grief. I was a senior in high school that year. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

I love to look up the base of words. A little Latin helps, too.
Thinking of the word sacrifice.

A mother or father, awake in the middle of the night,
caring for their child who is ill - makes sacred that time.
For sacrifice = sacra facere - to make sacred.
And the parent sacrifices rest and sleep, in caring for their child.

This brings to mind, as well, Gerard Manley Hopkins noting:

The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil…

Each day brings it’s own grace. And the making sacred
of simple human acts, is part of this grandeur.

reen
 
GodsGadfly said:
Marietta,
Apparently, you don’t know what it is like to suffer from a serious health condition. In this, let me suggest you study the life of St. Therese of Lisieux, who felt a great temptation to suicide during her battle with TB, and advised her Sisters not to leave her alone with her pain medicatin.

I thirst 4 YOU,

The “why” is love. Suffering conditions us to be more loving and selfless. It also allows us to participate in Christ’s suffering and become more Christ-like, which is essentially the same thing.

Is there some deeper thing you’re looking for here ?
Click to expand...
A poor (albeit manageable) health condition is not the only form of human suffering. I know what it’s like to suffer with alcoholism and drug addiction and bi-polar disorder - each with physical, mental, emotional and spiritual angles - all of my 56 years. Do they qualify me as a legitimate sufferer, or do you believe these are just matters of character? I don’t need to study the life of St. Therese of Lisieux to understand suicidal ideation. That was a part of my life for 36 years until I tried over 20 different types and combinations of medications to settle on a cocktail that pulls me up from the depths while quieting the manic tendencies just so I can be functional. I can revisit suicidal ideation anytime I miss a dose of my meds, as the antidepressant has a half-life of only 8 hours. Life for me is chemical management, and not just for bi-polar disorder but for other conditions as well.

So, let me ask you this: Is it your belief that Christ died solely so we could perfect our suffering? Was the entire purpose of His life, death, resurrection not to free us from sin but to teach us to embrace suffering and make that the focus of this “gift” of life?

marietta
 
And the making sacred - of human suffering accepted, and endured,
is, too, part of His world, and part of

…shining from shook foil.

It is all mystery.

reen
 
marietta said:
A poor (albeit manageable) health condition is not the only form of human suffering. I know what it’s like to suffer with alcoholism and drug addiction and bi-polar disorder - each with physical, mental, emotional and spiritual angles - all of my 56 years. Do they qualify me as a legitimate sufferer, or do you believe these are just matters of character? I don’t need to study the life of St. Therese of Lisieux to understand suicidal ideation. That was a part of my life for 36 years until I tried over 20 different types and combinations of medications to settle on a cocktail that pulls me up from the depths while quieting the manic tendencies just so I can be functional. I can revisit suicidal ideation anytime I miss a dose of my meds, as the antidepressant has a half-life of only 8 hours. Life for me is chemical management, and not just for bi-polar disorder but for other conditions as well.

So, let me ask you this: Is it your belief that Christ died solely so we could perfect our suffering? Was the entire purpose of His life, death, resurrection not to free us from sin but to teach us to embrace suffering and make that the focus of this “gift” of life?

marietta
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I’m age 62. Have endured depression since childhood.
Too, I have endured psychological disorder, and
have been hospitalized twice. My father had schizophrenia
and my mother is now in the advance stage of Altzheimers.

Does the following make sense to you?

I hold that God entrusts a human being with this kind of illness.
For this makes loving Him most precious in His sight.

That we would continue to love Him - not despite illness -
but through illness. That we love Him - not because He gave,
but rather in His taking away. So many goods forfeit, as
function of illness. To continue to extend trust to Him must
needs be a gift of His grace, each day.

More simply, I love the story Roundbird, and I think that
God understands why.

magickeys.com/books/roundbrd/15.html

reen
 
Marietta,

I really have no interest in veering so far off topic. The question was why suffering is efficacious in promoting the spiritual life.

I said that is my belief that suffering is directly tied to sin. Whatever suffering you want to talk about–mental illness, physical illness, abuse, strained relationships, economic hardship, etc.–derives from ultimately from sinfulness.

We suffer because we’re selfish. We suffer because we want things our way, that the condition causing the suffering prevents us having our own way in some way, shape or form.

The Paschal Mystery is just that, a Mystery; something we can ponder for Eternity without ever fully probing its full meaning. But what I see in the lives and writings of the Saints is that they see Christ as an example of how to love completely selflessly, how to endure suffering as an avenue to greater love.

Whatever else is entailed in the Redemption, that lesson is there.

As for the rest, it’s veering too far off topic, but you challenged my assertion that atheism is an essentially hopeless belief system, which offers no solution to human suffering but death. You challenged that viewpoint.

It appeared to me that you were doubting the reality of suffering. What it seems you’re really doubting is Catholicism.

So, to that end, you should study St. Therese–and St. Ignatius of Loyola. They offer far greater solutions to depression than anything modern medicine has to offer. Even Meninger, an atheist, said that Catholicism had an answer he could not touch, that Confession and exorcism were much more effective treatments than anything medicine could offer. Jung remarked once that he never had a patient who was a devout Catholic.
 
GodsGadfy:

I’m terribly sorry, but **mental illness does not find its root in **sinfulness. If this is what you believe, and unless you agree to investigate your outrageous claim, then you and I are, mercifully, finished. Mental illness is not the Paschal Mystery: be my guest and probe all you want!

I do not doubt the freedom to choose atheism if one want to live that life. I certainly do not doubt suffering - no honest human being would. I do have doubts about the Catholic Church, yes. In fact, I’m fairly well certain that my upbringing under the weight of Catholicism is a great source of my suffering. The dogma is an oil slick - no matter how much I try I can’t wash it off. I resent it, I despair of ever finding peace because of it. So I’m not likely to run right out to the library and check out The Life And Times of St. Therese or any of the rest of it. I’d be happy to get farther away from it, not closer.

Your impression of the atheist, though scant, seems one-dimensional. Of course, a good Catholic would say, “Yes, Catholicism gives me all the dimensions I will ever want or need!”
There. I said it for you.

marietta
 
Exactly. Atheism is one-dimensional. It limits human existence to animal nature. It totally rejects the spiritual aspect of our nature. It limits our existence to a few short years, “or eighty for those who are strong.” It says that we’re nothing but bouncing atoms. That is one-dimensional and futile.

All misery comes from original sin. Mental illness is derived from sin: guilt complexes that derive from the mentally ill person’s sin; PTSD and other disorders that result from suffering from others’ sins; etc.

Yes, there are genetic factors in “mental illness,” but I contend that most of those are traits that are not necessarily in and of themselves defects. Many Saints had what modern clinicians would call “mental illnesses”: St. Therese and St. Francis de Sales certainly suffered depression. These “neurodiversities” gave them the zeal that made them saints. But they were not, strictly speaking, “mentally ill,” because they were living in accordance with Reality.

It used to be that there was a distinction between a “good crazy person” and a “bad crazy person.”

I’ve known a lot of people with mental health issues, some very severe, and all of them had some major sin problem going on.

G. K. Chesterton said that the problem with Catholicism is not that it has been tried and found wanting but that it has been found wanting and not tried.

You claim that mental illness is not related to sin, and now you’re expressing a deep-set animosity towards the Church.
 
GodsGadfly:

*“G. K. Chesterton said that the problem with Catholicism is not that it has been tried and found wanting but that it has been found wanting and not tried.” *

How has Catholicism been “found wanting”? What more does it want from people?? Chesterton is, in my opinion, a bland wordsmith whose stabs at cleverness fall way short of Advertising 101.

Because you are woefully uninformed as to the nature of mental illnesses, I am going to press my ignore button and eliminate your posts from consideration. No big deal to either of us, right?

For people who are shackled in this life to a mental illness (not a character defect or self-centeredness or whatever you may think it is), progress in our living skills, our ability to love and be loved, our relationships with God, are hopeless.

Hopeless.

marietta
 
I_thirst_4_YOU said:
Perhaps it would be even better if I phrased it how can one have a deeper conversion through his suffering?
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The word conversion indicates a ‘turning around.’ convertere = to turn around
Those who suffer, in life, may have good reason for this turning more fully toward Him.

quote:I thirst 4 YOU!
I just don’t get it? Why is suffering such a part of the Christian life?
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Happily, Judaic thought holds that man is born in innocence.
Not: ‘how have I sinned, let me count the ways.’

Attention is on this life, and on the repair of the world.

When all is said and done, suffering is a mystery
in God’s keeping.

reen12
 
GodsGadfly said:
Exactly. Atheism is one-dimensional. It limits human existence to animal nature. It totally rejects the spiritual aspect of our nature. It limits our existence to a few short years, “or eighty for those who are strong.” It says that we’re nothing but bouncing atoms. That is one-dimensional and futile.

All misery comes from original sin. Mental illness is derived from sin: guilt complexes that derive from the mentally ill person’s sin; PTSD and other disorders that result from suffering from others’ sins; etc.

Yes, there are genetic factors in “mental illness,” but I contend that most of those are traits that are not necessarily in and of themselves defects. Many Saints had what modern clinicians would call “mental illnesses”: St. Therese and St. Francis de Sales certainly suffered depression. These “neurodiversities” gave them the zeal that made them saints. But they were not, strictly speaking, “mentally ill,” because they were living in accordance with Reality.

It used to be that there was a distinction between a “good crazy person” and a “bad crazy person.”

I’ve known a lot of people with mental health issues, some very severe, and all of them had some major sin problem going on.

G. K. Chesterton said that the problem with Catholicism is not that it has been tried and found wanting but that it has been found wanting and not tried.

You claim that mental illness is not related to sin, and now you’re expressing a deep-set animosity towards the Church.
Click to expand...
As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth.
His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him. [John 9]

reen12 :flowers:
 
There is yet another way to consider suffering.
Earlier this year, I retold a story of Reb Zusia -
the Hasidic rabbi of the 18th century.
He is my favorite person from the past.
Reb Zusia was known as the Fool of God.
A traveler stopped at a village, on his journey.
There, he sought out the rabbi. "Why are we urged to
thank God for even loss and pain?
The rabbi told the traveler that there were human beings
who lived with loss and great pain. Yet they were happy,
and they brought this sense of happiness - and even joy -
to those around them, who knew not of the suffering
of the one who was joyful.

The rabbi told the traveler to go visit Reb Zusia, and to
ask him the question - that so filled the heart of this traveler.
Reb Zusia’s home had no heat, and his house was barren
of worldly goods. Zusia endured constant physical pain,
and there was hardly any food to feed his many children.
Hearing the traveler’s question, Zusia looked puzzled.
“I don’t know why the rabbi sent you to me. I have never
had anything bad happen to me.”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

reen12
 
*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

From Teresa de Avila, The Foundations, a chapter on "How one must deal with nuns who have melancholy. This chapter is necessary for prioresses.

books.google.com/books?id=fAXEv_JfWIgC&pg=PA36&dq=how+one+must+deal+with+the+nuns+who+have+melancholy#PPA40,M1

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
 
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