Suffering: why do we suffer?

[warpspeedpetey]

I have an old fashioned hobby, I like to do blacksmith work. So by analogy i see the suffering in my life in that frame work.

When I want to make a tool, its for a specific purpose, so i need this tool to be a certain size, shape, the metal must have a certain hardness, in other words it has to be made to exacting specifications. Otherwise it is useless to me and it cannot fulfill its purpose, nothing is left for me to do then but to throw it back on the scrap pile, its ruined.

To make this tool first I take a properly sized piece of iron, i put it in my forge, where I heat it until it glows and then i lay this iron across my anvil and i begin to hammer it, i beat it into shape.

When it begins too cool i put it back in that white hot forge fire, and reheat it, then once again i beat it with my hammer to achieve the correct shape.

after many cycles of assaulting this poor piece of iron I plunge it into a cold bath of water to cool it. then i grind the piece to bring it to its final shape.

When this piece of iron has been tortured into the perfect tool to complete its purpose, it has value to me, it is no longer a piece of scrap. After its purpose is fulfilled i give it an honored place in my shop that i have prepared for the tools that serve me well.

Likewise i am the iron and G-d is my blacksmith. when i am in the midst of the furnace, and beaten with the hammer, suffering i no longer cry out to G-d “Why Me?”

I now Know, “why me”, Without that fire and with out that hammer, We are of no value to G-d, Suffering is the method by which we are shaped and become useful to G-d. without that suffering we cannot fulfill the purpose for which we are created. We would just be useless scrap, we would never go to that honored place which has been prepared for us who serve him well.

So bring on the suffering! let my life pour out! let me die to self that I may rise with Christ! i now thank G-d that i am allowed to suffer.

 

[patrickmwebb]

I posted a question a few months back about redemptive suffering. It had very few responses as yours is getting. The question was “Do you have to be in a state of grace for suffering to be redemptive?”. One poster said “yes”, you must be in a state of grace. It knocked the wind out of me. I have been in a state of sin most of my life, including what I thought was a grace that I could join in the sufferings of Christ and that was my fight with cancer. It was made a punishment and I now resent the suffering I have been through above and beyond a little thing of cancer that has been towered over by death itself. I’ve seen the rotting corpse of a loved one and held the hand of the dieing. I tried to reconcile and was told that asking “why” was a lament of pride. So I have left the Church and don’t see me going back any time soon. Hope someone can answer your question, but deep down, we know why we suffer. For some, it’s a taste of what awaits. Tim

Hi Top I had a wonderful mystical experience in 1978 following an all night vigil in Our Ladies Shrine knock Ireland. I wasn’t in a state of grace or anything like a state of grace. I went there hopping there was such a being as God. I was destroying my marriage with a disease called jealousy and alcoholism which I wallowed in self pity, I was working and building my house, but there was a terrible emptiness, as though there was no meaning to life. To cut a long story short, because I won’t get enough room to wright it all here. Any way, I got this wonderful experience, I gave up drinking and smoking I offered them to God in thanksgiving for such an inexplicable grace. I also asked the Lord to allow me to take whatever share of the cross he wished to give me!! If I had known the form it would take, would I have taken it? again to shorten it, although I was getting great encouragements, my marriage was not getting better it got worse. where I had been an alco, I was now a holy joe my wife made a laugh of me and the kids fallowed suit, this went on for about ten years, the encouragements had almost disappeared, I got the chance of a green card, hopping that loneliness would make the heart grow fonder I headed U.S.A. in instead she found her indepence. I thought that I had offended God because I couldn’t feel his presents. I began to feel lonely and looking for solace I met a woman, fooling myself I thought God had allowed it. I found out the hard way that he hadn’t. a couple of years later my wife asked me to take my son Danny over, because he had gone mad on drugs, and she couldn’t handle hem, I did. but the drugs had already done the harm, he had become paranoid his mind was tormented he coulen’t work in the same room with two other pepole without thinking they were talking about him.then he stopped working altogether, and started drinking and smoking. eventually the woman that I was living with said she couldn’t have him there any more. I said to him, Danny you will have to go home if you don’t go to work. he said he would go home. Two months later he hung himself he was 23 two months later my 17 year old took an overdose of Nurofen, three days before she told anyone, by that time it was to late, she died a terrible death. I ended up in the looney bin, for three weeks didn’t even make the funeral. when I got out, I left everything, and came home, to find my hole family destroyed, two of my daughters were on heroin and had been for about ten years, my youngest 15 was going around with a alco gunky of 28and that was only half the problems, I had twelve Children 9 girls three boys. It was a choice ether, turn to drink and wallow in self pitym, or try to salvage what was left of my family. I Decided the latter. I turned to God and begged his forgiveness and pleaded with him to help my family, that was in 2001 and by his grace and his grace alone my two daughters are completely of drugs and are happy my youngest has met a lovely guy and they have a beautiful daughter. And the rest of the family have settled down thank God. So should I blame God for all this misery? No!! every thing that happend was of my own doing. God allows us to find out the hard way, like the Prodigal son. But when we see the mess we have made, and ask forgiveness he is there with open arms. What did all these terrible things do for me If the Cross is supposed to bring a Crown? If I had never known jealousy, I would never have been able to understand it in others the same with marriage brake up,and alcoholism and suicide, drug addiction living together out of marriage and all the other problems in life. When I was younger I remember looking down on pepole with problems like these, not knowing that I was being self-righteous. So what have I learnt? To genuinely “feel” the pain of others, who go through these things every day. SO don’t give up on God, if he is allowing you to feel his pain!
God bless
Matt.

 

[TOP]

Matt, I really hope you pass your test, you have been through alot already. There is still some fight in me yet, I haven’t lost all hope. I’m sorry for your losses and will pray for you. Tim

 

[GodsGadfly]

Marietta,

I feel sorry for you. I really do. When you first started replying to me, I wasn’t sure if you were some high-faluting Thomist who wanted everything logical, or if you were someone struggling with God. I read some of your other posts and found that you were the latter. I don’t understand why you find my words so offensive. I don’t understand why you choose to be enmeshed in hopelessness.

Our discussion started because of my discussion of how I have found Catholicism to be the cure for my own depression. You challenged my “right” to be depressed by being physically disabled, with no mention at first of your own background. Then you did mention your own background, taking the tone that your mental health issues somehow “trump” my physical health issues (which you describe, somewhat inaccurately, as “manageable”-the fact is, for the past 12 years, I’ve been in constant danger of sudden death, and will remain so for the rest of my life).

Now, I have no interest in “competing” with you in this regard. But you keep shifting your position merely to resist my words about how Catholicism is the answer to suffering.

The main reason I’ve been replying to you at all is that you continually misrepresent what I have said, and you’re doing so again.

Reen,
"Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him. [John 9] "
Mm-hmm. I know.

That’s usually one of the verses I point to when I say that SUFFERING is a result of original sin. What suffering is there in blindness, other than that caused by original sin??

If we were a sinless people, what would it matter if someone were blind? If we were sinless, we would love and support one another unconditionally. The blind person would not need to be cured of his blindness. Everyone else would see how his blindness gave him special gifts that others lack. They would help him in the ways he needs to be helped.

If we were sinless, we would see how someone with bipolar, or autism, or ADHD, was given by God a special gift, a special way of viewing the world that “neurotypicals” lack. These things beocme “mental illnesses”–causes of suffering–only because we’re so screwed up. Instead of letting the boy with ADHD run around and channel his energy into projects, and allowing him to think the way God designed him to think, we try to force him into a pre-set mold of “behavior.” Then we tease and abuse him for not matching up to the standards of neurotypicals.

We call the girl with non-hyperactive ADD “lazy” and “stupid” and “ditsy.” We call the autistic child a “retard,” even though we’d still be walking in caves if not for the things that autistics have invented over the centuries.

Suffering is a psychological state which comes from how we are treated by our fellow, fallen, human beings. There is no inherent reason why we should suffer from physical pain.

God does not say to Eve, “I will cause you to feel pain in childbirth”. He says, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbirth,” indicating that there was pain in childbirth before the fall, but it didn’t matter.

Think about the causes of our mortality. How many of them are directly the cause of sin? Reckless driving? Violence? Abortion? Euthanasia? Heart disease (which is caused by gluttony, sloth and “stress”/pride)?

Cancer, which is caused by polluting our bodies?

If we were sinless, we’d be in perfect harmony with nature. We wouldn’t eat things that were harmful to our bodies; we wouldn’t fill our bodies with pollutants.
A sinless society would not force those of us who are differently abled to do things God did not intend our bodies to do. A sinless society would verbally and physically abuse those with neurodiversity.

That is why all suffering is caused by sin.

 

[reen12]

Well, I’m no Christian, but I can read what Jesus said -
as to sin/suffering.

As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth.
His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him. [John 9]

I post his words, again - high-lighting the view of Jesus,
as he taught that there is no necessary connection
between sin and suffering.

I do wish to call to mind, for the followers of this thread -
who may not be posting - that Jesus, in fact, addressed the issue
of illness/sin, in the Gospel of John, 9th chapter. :coffeeread:

reen12

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’ve heard it said that suffering has redemptive value–how is that so?

Sure Christ died on the cross for us that sanctifies our suffering but that still doesn’t make one fell any better when he is suffering.

What is the Christian response to suffering?

Why ?​

Because the world is out of joint - it is dysfunctional, all of it. In a dysfunctional world, Someone not dysfunctional is the oddity. In that way (among others) the Cross was inevitable. As we are made members - IOW, body-parts - of this Crucified Oddity, our living-out of His Life means that we are going to meet with the same sort of reaction as He did. Now that He is Raised & Glorified, He does not suffer in His own Person, as Jesus of Nazareth, the man who is God Incarnate: so, to continue His Work in His world, He suffers through His members instead, in every age.

Since suffering is a fact, because the dysfunctional, alienated state of the world is a fact, we can either suffer in the world in alienation from God - or, suffering can be a means by which He works in & through us to do His Will. It is going to be done, no matter what - if need be, despite us; it need not be that way. The Cross ***cannot ***be removed from Christianity.

Words & “explanations” & theories don’t make things any easier to bear - but thaat is part of what suffering involves, AFAICS.

IMHO, those of who are not deep in it, have no right to talk about it…

 

[reen12]

In terms of turning to God, when we are hurting, lonely, feeling forgotten, and overwhelmed -
and the growth in sanctity, that may come, all unawares] - when we are so low, bottom looks like up, we can turn to God, remembering how He related to Job.

How long, O Lord, will you utterly forget me? How long will you hide Your face from me?
How long must I harbor sorrow in my soul - grief in my heart, day after day? [psalms]

As to the variety of causes, for suffering in life - God makes His thought known.

The friends of Job - who were concerned about him,
kept telling him that he must have sinned…
for these misfortunes to have fallen upon him.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Job kept on insisting that he has not sinned…

[To have agreed with his friends, while knowing himself without sin,
would have been to agree with something that simply was not true.]

God, Himself, testifies to the sanctity of Job:

And the Lord said to Satan -

“Have you noticed my servant Job, and that there is no one on earth like him -
blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil?”

Job spoke some of the most beautiful words in scripture.
Despite his pain, and loss, and wild bewilderment, he was able to say -

“The Lord has given, and the Lord has taken away…Blessed be the name of the Lord.” [Job 1]

Which Jesus then echoes, saying: May Thy name be held holy.

reen12

 

[GodsGadfly]

Reen,

You totally ignored what I said,

"I post his words, again - high-lighting the view of Jesus,
as he taught that there is no necessary connection
between sin and suffering. "
No. Jesus said there was no necessary connection between sin and deformity or illness.

My point is that there is no necessary connection between deformity or illness and suffering.

Suffering is an entirely psychological state, caused by sin.

A person can be a multimillionaire with a Ph.D., in perfect health with a good marriage and great kids, living in a tropical paradise, and be absolutely miserable.

Someone else can be penniless, living in Haiti, and dying of cancer, with no family nor friends, yet be the happiest person on earth.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

i wove the Crown of Thorns
with my own two hands,
i tore the tunic from His back,
i scourged Him with the cat of nine,
and i drew lots for His garments,
i set his arm to the Cross
and i drove the spikes into His Holy Hands
i lifted his broken body upright on that tree
I laughed at this broken and battered King of the Jews
I stabbed him for his insolence, and blood and water poured from his side,
i watched as he suffered,
i was there when he died,
When the heavens shook,
as he gave up his life,
it was then that i feared,
it was then that i cried,

Thank The Most High that we are allowed to suffer,
it paints a beautiful work of redemption,
It is a glorious crown for this pitiable wretch,
How Just the Almighty is,
We have earned Death,
But He gives us new Life,
How Merciful our Master!

so if we suffer remember it is for the Glory of God who gave us Life, when we have earned Death. it is right to give him thanks and praise!

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

**Beautiful poem! Did you write it yourself warpspeedpetey? **

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[warpspeedpetey]

thank you, buts its not really a poem, at least i didnt intend it to be. its a metaphor for my life, for how i lived and how ungrateful i am in the face of the sacrifice that was made for me, personally, on that tree so long ago. I am so grateful for His love. I spit in his face everyday for so many years, and yet he still loved me enough to die for me,to suffer for me. it is a debt I can never repay, i truly earned my Death, and yet he took it for me.

I spent years self involved, occupied with the satisfaction of my own desires. from the midst of suffering i cried out so many times “why me?” now i know i was being led home, i know that all suffering is redemptive and because of that it is beautiful. I wish all who suffered understood its purpose as i understand it. thats what that poem is about. sorry if that was TMI

 

[reen12]

Reen,

You totally ignored what I said,

"I post his words, again - high-lighting the view of Jesus,
as he taught that there is no necessary connection
between sin and suffering. "
No. Jesus said there was no necessary connection between sin and deformity or illness.

My point is that there is no necessary connection between deformity or illness and suffering.

Suffering is an entirely psychological state, caused by sin.

I understand your position, GodsGadfly.

I simply disagree. :tiphat:

reen12

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Suffering is an entirely psychological state, caused by sin.

A person can be a multimillionaire with a Ph.D., in perfect health with a good marriage and great kids, living in a tropical paradise, and be absolutely miserable.

Someone else can be penniless, living in Haiti, and dying of cancer, with no family nor friends, yet be the happiest person on earth.

The last two paragraphs are perfectly sensible (and pretty obvious).

The first one, however, is not Catholic teaching if you mean to imply that anyone’s suffering is due to their own sins. Is that what you’re saying? That the infant who dies a slow death of starvation is being punished for its sins?

 

[Steeltemplar]

I think that the Christian response to suffering is found in hope. However, the subject of the True Hope that is Christ is best addressed by Pope Benedict XVI in his wonderful encyclical Spe Salvi.
Spe Salvi:

We can try to limit suffering, to fight against it, but we cannot eliminate it. It is when we attempt to avoid suffering by withdrawing from anything that might involve hurt, when we try to spare ourselves the effort and pain of pursuing truth, love, and goodness, that we drift into a life of emptiness, in which there may be almost no pain, but the dark sensation of meaninglessness and abandonment is all the greater. It is not by sidestepping or fleeing from suffering that we are healed, but rather by our capacity for accepting it, maturing through it and finding meaning through union with Christ, who suffered with infinite love. In this context, I would like to quote a passage from a letter written by the Vietnamese martyr Paul Le-Bao-Tinh († 1857) which illustrates this transformation of suffering through the power of hope springing from faith. “I, Paul, in chains for the name of Christ, wish to relate to you the trials besetting me daily, in order that you may be inflamed with love for God and join with me in his praises, for his mercy is for ever (Ps 136 [135]). The prison here is a true image of everlasting Hell: to cruel tortures of every kind—shackles, iron chains, manacles—are added hatred, vengeance, calumnies, obscene speech, quarrels, evil acts, swearing, curses, as well as anguish and grief. But the God who once freed the three children from the fiery furnace is with me always; he has delivered me from these tribulations and made them sweet, for his mercy is for ever. In the midst of these torments, which usually terrify others, I am, by the grace of God, full of joy and gladness, because I am not alone —Christ is with me … How am I to bear with the spectacle, as each day I see emperors, mandarins, and their retinue blaspheming your holy name, O Lord, who are enthroned above the Cherubim and Seraphim? (cf. Ps 80:1 [79:2]). Behold, the pagans have trodden your Cross underfoot! Where is your glory? As I see all this, I would, in the ardent love I have for you, prefer to be torn limb from limb and to die as a witness to your love. O Lord, show your power, save me, sustain me, that in my infirmity your power may be shown and may be glorified before the nations … Beloved brothers, as you hear all these things may you give endless thanks in joy to God, from whom every good proceeds; bless the Lord with me, for his mercy is for ever … I write these things to you in order that your faith and mine may be united. In the midst of this storm I cast my anchor towards the throne of God, the anchor that is the lively hope in my heart”[28]. This is a letter from “Hell”. It lays bare all the horror of a concentration camp, where to the torments inflicted by tyrants upon their victims is added the outbreak of evil in the victims themselves, such that they in turn become further instruments of their persecutors’ cruelty. This is indeed a letter from Hell, but it also reveals the truth of the Psalm text: “If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I sink to the nether world, you are present there … If I say, ‘Surely the darkness shall hide me, and night shall be my light’ —for you darkness itself is not dark, and night shines as the day; darkness and light are the same” (Ps 139 [138]:8-12; cf. also Ps 23 [22]:4). Christ descended into “Hell” and is therefore close to those cast into it, transforming their darkness into light. Suffering and torment is still terrible and well- nigh unbearable. Yet the star of hope has risen—the anchor of the heart reaches the very throne of God. Instead of evil being unleashed within man, the light shines victorious: suffering—without ceasing to be suffering—becomes, despite everything, a hymn of praise.

The whole encyclical may be read here:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

 

[GodsGadfly]

Paul,
Great question!

First, I never said anything about “punishment.”

I didn’t say suffering is a punishment for sin; I said that suffering is caused by sin. That we perceive certain situatiosn as causing “suffering” because of our concupiscence

In the example you give, the baby is starving why?

Because of the sin of greedy rich people who don’t share their goods with the poor?
Because the mother, who would otherwise be capable of nursing the child, chooses to use formula, which the baby cannot digest? That’s not to say that formula-feeding is a sin, but either a) the mother is doing it for vain reasons (such as wanting to work outside the home when she doesn’t have to) or b) again, society sins in making conditions such that mothers have to work outside the home.
Because the mother is not producing nourishing milk due to her own dietary failings (which would in some way tie to gluttony, sloth, etc.?)

Or because the baby has some genetic defect that makes it difficult to digest food?

Now, if it’s the last one, in a hypothetical unfallen world, we’d be perfectly in tune with Nature and with God’s design. We’d be in regular communion with God and the angels. So, either a) the baby would be cured miraculously or, more likely b) we would have the knowledge of how to best nourish that particular baby.

Also, when I say “sin,” I mean “original sin”, not necessarily personal sin. Obviously, Jesus and Mary suffered but had no personal sin, but they suffered due to the sins of others–and their suffering, rather than being “woe is me,” was related to grief over those sins.

Regardless of all that, the baby may be objectively starving, and the baby may be objectively in pain. But no one except the baby can know if the baby is actually “suffering.”

 

[reen12]

Re: suffering: why do we suffer?

*For those who find the Christian explanation, of the **human condition, not commensurate with their own **thought or experience, there is another theological view of the **human condition, that far pre-dates the Christian account of same. *
*Happily the faith that holds these views does not **seek converts. Members teach by example. *
*In the post, *following this current post, I will briefly address this wholly different theological view.

Man sins and man suffers and man dies. Empirical evidence of the human condition.
The authors of Genesis, in their accounts of the creation/fall, were working backwards, as it were.

“Here’s the evidence. What happened?” http://bestsmileys.com/sad/4.gif

Next we have a garden, 2 humans, and a serpent bent on wrenching the humans away from God.

A hermeneutic for the existential.

---

Christianity raised the bar, saying that the sin of the father of humanity was inherited.
An ontological reality. Part of man’s very being. Original sin.

The fact that the creation/fall story is granted facticity, is a function of faith.

Man sinned, according to the authors of Genesis… All the rest follows.

The existential daren’t intrude on theory, or it will be ruled out of bounds?

Originate man sinned.
This explains everything. It’s logical.

reen12

 

[reen12]

This is why I appreciate Judaic thought. No urgings to be ‘perfect.’
No inherited sin. We’re here, life is hard, I wonder why.

Same account, in Genesis. Mans sins and now lives ‘East of Eden.’
Yet God does not saddle humanity with the sin of another.
Human beings sin, turn back to Him, and are forgiven.
The yetzers are cogent reflections of the operative human condition.

jewfaq.org/human.htm

Man can choose the good, in each area where the capacity to
choose the good is not impaired. No perfection expected.

That he/she will sin, is taken for granted. It is the turning back to Him,
the teshuva, that is critical.
Looking outward, to the world He has created.
Not inward [How have I sinned? Let me count the ways.]

Far more expressive of the human condition, are the yetzers.

The existential, not the theoretical.

reen12

 

[reen12]

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up
what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church…
Colossians 1: 24

I never quite understood this quote from Scripture? Why is Paul making up what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings?

I don’t know, either. Since Paul made such a point about Jesus being the perfect victim,
once for all, where does redemptive suffering enter?

Theoretically, it’s a gorgeous construct.

Trouble is that it clashes, mightily, with perfect sacrifice, perfect victim. What is lacking, then?
How can the perfect be lacking?

Since we are indebted to Paul, for the concept of original sin [inherited sin] -
it is of more than little interest, to comprehend what he is saying.

How can the perfect be lacking?

reen12

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Re: suffering: why do we suffer?

*For those who find the Christian explanation, of the **human condition, not commensurate with their own **thought or experience, there is another theological view of the **human condition, that far pre-dates the Christian account of same. *
*Happily the faith that holds these views does not **seek converts. Members teach by example. *
*In the post, *following this current post, I will briefly address this wholly different theological view.

out of sheer curiosity what is this ancient faith?

i understand questioning the logical principles of religion as a legitimate method of exploration.

if those principles were then applied to this ancient theology, what would be the result!

how would that result differ from other faiths?

thank you

 

[KingAlfred]

Perhaps it would be even better if I phrased it how can one have a deeper conversion through his suffering?

I just don’t get it? Why is suffering such a part of the Christian life?

True love-in-action requires suffering. Such was the culminating point of Jesus’ human existence. One cannot claim to love others without suffering for them. Every day, I interact with hundreds of teenagers whose innocence and vulnerability demand careful, adult nurturing. Their futures depend on it. Without Christ’s love within me, within my every thought and deed, and without His instruction on and exemplication of self-sacrifice, I couldn’t do it.