Suffering: why do we suffer?

[reen12]

out of sheer curiosity what is this ancient faith?

i understand questioning the logical principles of religion as a legitimate method of exploration.

if those principles were then applied to this ancient theology, what would be the result!

how would that result differ from other faiths?

thank you

Sorry 'bout that, warpspeedpetey.
I must not have been clear in indicating that I was referring
to Judaism.

quote: reen12

This is why I appreciate Judaic thought. No urgings to be ‘perfect.’
No inherited sin. We’re here, life is hard, I wonder why.

I presented the dominant thought of Judaism - in terms of the Judaic view that man is born in innocence - not born saddled with the sin of another. [Adam]

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

Hope that’s clearer. :tiphat:

reen12

 

[warpspeedpetey]

sorry, i must have missed it.

 

[patrickmwebb]

Sorry 'bout that, warpspeedpetey.
I must not have been clear in indicating that I was referring
to Judaism.

quote: reen12

I presented the dominant thought of Judaism - in terms of the Judaic view that man is born in innocence - not born saddled with the sin of another. [Adam]

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

Hope that’s clearer. :tiphat:

reen. I have tried to workout, whether you are trying to rob others of their hope, or, are you through argument, searching for hope. according to your first page of this thread, it appeared to be the later, but from these last pages, its most defiantly the former. Eve is alive and well, not content to go down herself but wants to take everyone with her!! God could have made robots and programed them to do every thing that he wanted, them to do, but he didn’t, he gave us a free will to think for ourselves and a conscious awareness so that we would know right from wrong. Adam and Eve would not accept Gods word, but decided to determine their own destiny, through the influence the serpent/devil,they lost faith in God. And because of their disobedience God sent them out to learn by “Experience,” the hard way. So from the beginning there was suffering. they had to live by the sweat of their brow,which each of us, have had to do ever since. If I’m not mistaken I replied to a thread that you replied to recently, Re:I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19. And you asked the same questions in a slightly different way, you asked about [John 3:16-17] If you read [John 3:1-21inc]the answer is right there, as I told you in the above thread. but it maybe, that as “Jesus said to Nicodemus, If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?”
Now as to suffering and sin. “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, Whence have you come? Satan answered the Lord “From going to and fro on the earth, and walking up and down it.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, A blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” Then Satan answered the Lord, " Does Job fear God for nought? Hast thou not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse thee to thy face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand.” So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord. [Job1:15-17]So Satan is allowed to try us because, Gold is tested in the furness.
The Lord said to him in reply, “Hypocrites! Does not each one of you on the sabbath untie his ox or *** from the manger and lead it out for watering? This daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound for eighteen years now, ought she not to have been set free on the sabbath day from this bondage? [Luke 13:15-17] Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your Children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned. [But] I tell you, will not see me until the time comes when] you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.”

 

[reen12]

Hello, patrickmwebb,

That you choose to accept Christian doctirne, as proclaimed by
the Catholic church, is understandable. So do a billion other human beings. And a further billion people accept Jesus as a God/man. That, too, is most understandable.

Christianity teaches that man is born in sin, inheriting this
ontological sin from Adam. A sin in man’s very being -
from which they need to be saved.

quote: reen12

This is why I appreciate Judaic thought. No urgings to be ‘perfect.’
No inherited sin. We’re here, life is hard, I wonder why.

…God does not saddle humanity with the sin of another…

jewfaq.org/human.htm

Very different perception of the human condition. :tiphat:

reen12

 

[reen12]

…reen. I have tried to workout, whether you are trying to rob others of their hope, or, are you through argument, searching for hope. according to your first page of this thread, it appeared to be the later, but from these last pages, its most defiantly the former. Eve is alive and well, not content to go down herself but wants to take everyone with her!! God could have made robots and programed them to do every thing that he wanted, them to do, but he didn’t, he gave us a free will to think for ourselves and a conscious awareness so that we would know right from wrong. Adam and Eve would not accept Gods word, but decided to determine their own destiny, through the influence the serpent/devil,they lost faith in God. And because of their disobedience God sent them out to learn by “Experience,” the hard way. So from the beginning there was suffering. they had to live by the sweat of their brow,which each of us, have had to do ever since. If I’m not mistaken I replied to a thread that you replied to recently, Re:I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19. And you asked the same questions in a slightly different way, you asked about [John 3:16-17] If you read [John 3:1-21inc]the answer is right there, as I told you in the above thread. but it maybe, that as “Jesus said to Nicodemus, If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?”
Now as to suffering and sin. “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, Whence have you come? Satan answered the Lord “From going to and fro on the earth, and walking up and down it.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, A blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” Then Satan answered the Lord, " Does Job fear God for nought? Hast thou not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse thee to thy face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand.” So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord. [Job1:15-17]So Satan is allowed to try us because, Gold is tested in the furness.
The Lord said to him in reply, “Hypocrites! Does not each one of you on the sabbath untie his ox or *** from the manger and lead it out for watering? This daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound for eighteen years now, ought she not to have been set free on the sabbath day from this bondage? [Luke 13:15-17] Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your Children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned. [But] I tell you, will not see me until the time comes when] you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.”

Hello, patrickmwebb,

That you choose to accept Christian doctrine, as proclaimed by
the Catholic church, I find understandable. So do a billion other human beings.
And a further billion people accept Jesus as a God/man. That, too, is most understandable.

Christianity teaches that man is born in sin, inheriting this
ontological sin from Adam. A sin in man’s very being -
from which they need to be saved.

quote: reen12

Quote:

This is why I appreciate Judaic thought. No urgings to be ‘perfect.’
No inherited sin. We’re here, life is hard, I wonder why.

…God does not saddle humanity with the sin of another…

jewfaq.org/human.htm

Very different perception of the human condition.

Let your steadfast love, O Lord, be upon us, even as we hope in you. [Psalm 33]

reen12 :tiphat:

 

[patrickmwebb]

Hello, patrickmwebb,

That you choose to accept Christian doctrine, as proclaimed by
the Catholic church, I find understandable. So do a billion other human beings.
And a further billion people accept Jesus as a God/man. That, too, is most understandable.

Christianity teaches that man is born in sin, inheriting this
ontological sin from Adam. A sin in man’s very being -
from which they need to be saved.

quote: reen12

Quote:

Very different perception of the human condition.

Let your steadfast love, O Lord, be upon us, even as we hope in you. [Psalm 33]

reen12 :tiphat:

Hi reen
I must apologize if, my reply to your thread was a little harsh. But I get so frustrated, by all the unwarranted Catholic hate that’s out there. When all the Church, is doing, is holding fast to the truth, of the Gospel. All you have to do is to go through the threads on these forums, to see it!! Even from breakaway Christens, who want us to capitulate. You say that you appreciate Judaic thought. No urgings to be perfect. No inherited sin. We’re here life is hard, I wonder why? Your very reasoning is what makes this concept suspect, What I mean is, it sounds like you want a God that conforms to your ideals, rather then you to his. That’s the cause of my frustration the world wants a God in its own image and likeness, not they in his. I would like to ask you a few hypothetical questions. First, If you had the power to create other human beings, and you wanted him/her to love you. Not because they had to, but because everything you do fills them with overflowing love joy, and happiness? second, would you, program this fervor into them? Or would you desire it from a genuine free will, true, not false or forced? third, How would you go about developing this unspeakable love? The only way is to let them, " Experience " everything good and bad, to know self love and self interest, only by knowing the end result of these can we long and pine for true genuine love of the one who created us for to love us, and we reciprocate with purity of heart.

reen
This is the God I love, he loves me unconditionally, the experiences of life are what drow me, into this this fire of Divine Love.
I don’t have to be perfect I just have to long for it.
God bless.
Matt.:irish2:

 

[reen12]

in re: suffering: why do we suffer?

I surely realize that Christian doctrine teaches original sin.
Yet this is not the dominant teaching of the faith that is considered the parent faith of Christianity.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

The relationship between original sin and suffering is of interest.
Why do we suffer? Judaism and Christianity hold differing views.
[The story of Job will be of interest, here.]

---

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were driven from Eden.
Still - God had mercy on them, even making them garments to wear.
For now thorns would tear, and they would walk on stoney ground.
Now Eve would give birth in pain, and Adam would work by the sweat of his brow,
to gain sustence for Eve, himself, and their children.

Too, some of the animals - that Adam had named - would seek his life.
The sun would beat down on him as he labored, and both he and Eve
and their children would know suffering and death.

All creation fell, in Adam.

Sickness, pain, hard labor, and death entered the world.
Their children would know these realities, never having known Eden.
Even the animal world would know pain and illness, and they, too would die.
These were the results of the fall.

---

In considering Job, we need consider what God said of him:

“Have you noticed my servant Job, and that there is no one on earth like him -
blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil?”

God loves His human creatures. Each is His unique creation.
He would not be so unjust as to transfer the sin of Adam, to Adam’s decendants.

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It is clear - from the way God spoke of Job, that God thought Job His precious creation,
“blameless and upright.”

Even as He allowed Job to be tested, God lifted Job up with an arm strong to save.

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reen12

 

[warpspeedpetey]

i dont know exactly what the church teaches on these matters and i will accept what ever they say.

that said i take a great interest in job, i think a lot is to be said about the nature of our relationship with G-d in the last couple chapters.
people tend to have the simplistic view that if we “behave” no harm will befall us, and if it does then The Most High must be unjust. Job shows that is not the case, his justice is absolute, our interpretation of it is what is at fault. this gives a lot of people trouble, they just cant help to try to stuff G-d into their box.
in my conversations with disbelievers, both here and elsewhere i have noticed that after a while something along these lines

“a loving G-d wouldn’t do X”
“this happened to me or a loved one, a just g-d wouldn’t allow that”
“G-d would have to be evil to send them to hell”
or the most common
“some sort of sexual guilt, a good G-d, wouldn’t care about that”

or some variation on these themes

i know that they don’t understand, but i don’t really know how to explain it with compassion, other than to tell them to read job, which is a chore for a lot of people.

having been there myself as a younger man, i understand how they can feel that way, but just coming out and saying so will start a fight which just isn’t productive.

but i also believe there is a divine purpose in every meeting like this, I climbed out of disbelief, walked up that great hill of suffering and i know what it meant, the difference it made in my life.

i know to pray, but what else might help?

 

[reen12]

Hi reen
I must apologize if, my reply to your thread was a little harsh. But I get so frustrated, by all the unwarranted Catholic hate that’s out there. When all the Church, is doing, is holding fast to the truth, of the Gospel. All you have to do is to go through the threads on these forums, to see it!! Even from breakaway Christens, who want us to capitulate. You say that you appreciate Judaic thought. No urgings to be perfect. No inherited sin. We’re here life is hard, I wonder why? Your very reasoning is what makes this concept suspect, What I mean is, it sounds like you want a God that conforms to your ideals, rather then you to his. That’s the cause of my frustration the world wants a God in its own image and likeness, not they in his. I would like to ask you a few hypothetical questions. First, If you had the power to create other human beings, and you wanted him/her to love you. Not because they had to, but because everything you do fills them with overflowing love joy, and happiness? second, would you, program this fervor into them? Or would you desire it from a genuine free will, true, not false or forced? third, How would you go about developing this unspeakable love? The only way is to let them, " Experience " everything good and bad, to know self love and self interest, only by knowing the end result of these can we long and pine for true genuine love of the one who created us for to love us, and we reciprocate with purity of heart.

reen
This is the God I love, he loves me unconditionally, the experiences of life are what drow me, into this this fire of Divine Love.
I don’t have to be perfect I just have to long for it.
God bless.
Matt.:irish2:

Matt, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
*

What fascinates is this:

From the Judaic view, Saul of Tarsus [St. Paul] is an apostate.
He rejected the faith.

And could we say that Simon and James and John got tired
of keeping the Law, and made a beeline for a new faith,
first chance they got? Was this really their ‘reason’ for
accepting Jesus?

*Of course not. *I don’t question their motives.They held Jesus to be a God/man.

In the West, Christianity is the dominant faith,
in terms of sheer numbers. The existence of
original sin is more or less taken for granted,
by many in the West.

Yet along with others, I turn to Judaism.
They lead, I follow.

Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men of every nationality,
speaking different tongues, shall take hold, yes, take hold of every Jew by the edge of his garment and say,
“Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” [Zech 8]

quote: reen12, from an earlier thread

I don’t know how, and I don’t need to, yet those words speak to me and for me.

Beyond the reach of intellect, I know these words to be true. Perhaps this is
the meaning of ‘faith.’ I hear the God of Israel, and I know, then, the meaning
of the words ‘Be still and know that I am God.’ And it is in the shelter of His wings,
that all questions die on one’s lips, and we become still.

Hide me, in the shelter of Your wings. [psalms]



As Thomas More said:

“Pray for me, as I will for thee, that we may meet merrily in heaven.”

reen :tiphat:*

 

[reen12]

but i also believe there is a divine purpose in every meeting like this, I climbed out of disbelief, walked up that great hill of suffering and i know what it meant, the difference it made in my life.

i know to pray, but what else might help?

Even more prayer and good example, I think, warpspeedpetey.
One who has suffered muchly, is recognized, I think, by others
who are suffering. There is a depth, there, that is recognized.

When people are drowning, in the after-effects of some of their
actions, confused as to who they are, and who God is,
they need someone to float by on a raft of grace. One who
will extend a hand, and not condemn. God alone knows what
causes made for their sin and confusion. God Himself reaches
out to each of us, sometimes through another.

We have got to stop assigning motives to others.
That is not why God put us here. Our own safety,
on the raft, is tentative. God Himself keeps us on this raft,
as He kept Noah on the ark.

Above all, we need compassion for those caught up in the
same conditions we are. Sickness, pain and suffering are
the lot of all men, who follow Adam. We are all connected.

God placed us in time. It is not an accident that we are born
in a given day and age. Even if our lives are riddled with
suffering, this too He permits for His own reasons. Maybe
the suffering is the ‘raft’ we are to float on, so that we will
drift toward the one needing rescue, at this very moment -
in this time of God’s grace.

I would think that Christians, especially, would give heed to
the notion of a raft. For it was Christ who calmed the waters,
“Be still.” The Barque of Peter sails toward Him Who made us.

Throw out the lifeline across the dark wave;
There is a brother whom someone should save;
Somebody’s brother! Oh, who then will dare
To throw out the lifeline, his peril to share?

His peril to share, as we hold onto the raft for dear life.
Christians are said to be a priestly people. Can they not
lift a brother up to God, asking His mercy for him?

Just my thought, warpspeedpetey.

reen

 

[warpspeedpetey]

the end of the book of Job is the cure to mans Pride,

Job
Chapter 42

Then Job answered the LORD and said:

 I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be hindered.
 I have dealt with great things that I do not understand; things too wonderful for me, which I cannot know.
 I had heard of you by word of mouth, but now my eye has seen you.
 Therefore I disown what I have said, and repent in dust and ashes.

this may be one of the most beautiful parts of the bible.

 

[TOP]

Are you suggesting that lamenting from suffering is a result of pride?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

indeed i am

look all over Job

 

[TOP]

Look at Jesus. “Why have you forsaken me?” from the cross, was a result of pride? Not buying it. Tim

 

[warpspeedpetey]

you dont have to believe me read Job, if thats too much start at chapter 33, if thats still too much just read read from 38, but no matter which part you read, you will find that man has no business questioning the actions of G-d.

 

[marietta]

warpspeedpetey:

Men and women can and should question the actions of God - we are human, born with intellect and yearning and a desire to belong to something greater than ourselves. If we are prohibited from asking God what He wants for us or why He is leading us in a particular direction, then all we have with Him is a worthless, empty relationship.

God wants us to question Him. I believe it’s a* requirement *of my faith. We’re put here in this morass to find our way out - if we don’t have permission to ask Him for directions then how can anyone view Him as all-loving?

marietta

 

[reen12]

quote: reen12

Even if our lives are riddled with suffering, this too He permits for His own reasons. Maybe the suffering is the ‘raft’ we are to float on, so that we will drift toward the one needing rescue, at this very moment - in this time of God’s grace.

Those who struggle, in those tremendous waters - swept by driving winds and the cataclysimic waves of the storm are looking for someone to reach out a steady hand to them. A hand that they can grasp, as they are going under.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Judaic thought refers to repairing the world.

reen12

 

[patrickmwebb]

Matt, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
*

What fascinates is this:

From the Judaic view, Saul of Tarsus [St. Paul] is an apostate.
He rejected the faith.

And could we say that Simon and James and John got tired
of keeping the Law, and made a beeline for a new faith,
first chance they got? Was this really their ‘reason’ for
accepting Jesus?

*Of course not. **I don’t question their motives.They held Jesus to be a God/man.

In the West, Christianity is the dominant faith,
in terms of sheer numbers. The existence of
original sin is more or less taken for granted,
by many in the West.

Yet along with others, I turn to Judaism.
They lead, I follow.

Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men of every nationality,
speaking different tongues, shall take hold, yes, take hold of every Jew by the edge of his garment and say,
“Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” [Zech 8]
reen.
I am glad that the Holy Spirit directed you to the above scripture verse because it confirms what I have been saying. “For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will be their acceptance but life from the dead? If the first fruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.” [Romans 11:15-17] I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise [in] your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of Gentiles come in, and thus all Israel will be saved as it is written. " The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; in respect of the Gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. For the gifts and the call of God are irevocable. [Romans11:25-30] [Please read all of chapter 11.] And if you go to chapter [Zech 9:9-10] in fact read all of 9.10 and 11.
Jesus exclaimed “I bless you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for hiding these thing form the learned and clever and revealing them to mere Children. Yes, Father, for that is what it pleased you to do. Everything has been entrusted to me by Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, just as no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
“Come to me, all you who labour and are overburdened, and I will give you rest. Shoulder my yoke and learn from me, and you will find rest for your soul. Yes my yoke is easy and my burden light.”

It is my Father’s will, says the Lord, that I should lose nothing of what he gives me, and that I should raise it up on the last day.

but you are sure making it hard!!! :banghead:

God bless
MAtt.

 

[reen12]

quote: patrickmwebb

I am glad that the Holy Spirit directed you to the above scripture verse because it confirms what I have been saying. “For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will be their acceptance but life from the dead? If the first fruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.” [Romans 11:15-17] I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise [in] your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of Gentiles come in, and thus all Israel will be saved as it is written. " The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; in respect of the Gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. For the gifts and the call of God are irevocable. [Romans11:25-30] [Please read all of chapter 11.] And if you go to chapter [Zech 9:9-10] in fact read all of 9.10 and 11.
Jesus exclaimed “I bless you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for hiding these thing form the learned and clever and revealing them to mere Children. Yes, Father, for that is what it pleased you to do. Everything has been entrusted to me by Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, just as no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
“Come to me, all you who labour and are overburdened, and I will give you rest. Shoulder my yoke and learn from me, and you will find rest for your soul. Yes my yoke is easy and my burden light.”

It is my Father’s will, says the Lord, that I should lose nothing of what he gives me, and that I should raise it up on the last day.

but you are sure making it hard!!! :banghead:

God bless
MAtt.

OK, Matt. I am posting two posts in reply, so the one post
is not overly long.

The Catholic Church was the first church, and she makes certain claims,
based on this - the Keys, the papacy, Tradition, the Church Fathers,
the sole interpreter of Scripture, Magisterium as infallible…
in matters of faith and morals. *
correct, in terms of the filioque*, but let’s not go there.]

Judaism is first in time. How like God to choose a tiny group of people
to speak for Him and to carry His Name forward. While the
Christian world is measured in the billions, here is this relatively
tiny group of people, quietly worshipping Him, leading by example,
and not seeking converts.

I have learned to say -
“Judaism teaches…’
'Judaic sages say…” [scripture, Oral Tradition.]

This way, I may testify to those beliefs held by Judaism, which I share.
*
whatever to become a convert, and I prefer to reference Judaic websites,*
in terms of conveying clearly, Judaic beliefs.]

reen

 

[reen12]

Part 2 of reply.

Since Jesus commanded that his followers preach the
good news to all the world, Christians often do so, hoping
that others will recognize the truth of the divinity of Jesus,
and the salvation won by him - he being the one who saves mankind
from original sin and makes atonement [at-one-ment] for personal sin.

Yet the God of Israel had already granted forgiveness and mercy,
as well as eternal life, to all who would acknowledge Him as the one God,
and who would live by the natural law that He places in the hearts of all men.

Christianity states that it is the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures.
I can recogize that this is the belief held, and have respect for same,
without at all sharing this belief.

The thread topic is why do we suffer?

Surely all people ask themselves this, at some moments in life,
and some spend near a lifetime with illness and perhaps significant limitations.

Both Christians and members of Judaism can turn to the words of comfort:

My wanderings you have noted; are my tears not stored in your vial…? Psalm 56

Our tears are precious to Him, for they bespeak our suffering in life,
and the fact that, despite this suffering, yet do we love and trust Him.

reen