Suffering

[atheistgirl]

I understand that I have a duty to keep myself as fit and healthy as I can be, in body, mind, and in the case of a believer, soul.

I also understand it is a sin to take one’s own life.

I further understand there is a school of thought that says suffering, offered to God, can be redemptive.

If I understood correctly, and I might not have so please correct my misunderstanding, I have a duty to do all in my control to stay well, honoring the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit as such, but I have no moral duty to undergo extraordinary medical intervention and my refusal to do so would not be considered attempted suicide.

If that’s the case, there is nothing wrong with me refusing to have for example, a radical hysterectomy, indicated by the presence of cancer.

I could, if I chose, decide to ‘‘offer this up’’ to God, and leave it entirely in His hands as to whether or not I heal, without the intervention of modern medicine or drugs.

And if I took that path, I would not be doing anything wrong, according to the Catholic Church.

And the physical and mental suffering I would endure until my death (if I wasn’t healed or went into remission) would be considered redemptive suffering, assuming again I have that state of mind regarding offering my suffering up to God for the salvation of souls.

Is that correct?

Sarah x

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I hope you are speaking hypothetically and you don’t have cancer and you don’t need a hysterectomy.

I’m not sure if a hysterectomy in this scenario is considered extraordinary care or just ordinary care, especially if there would be a good prognosis with the surgery.

My son was born at a little more than 28 weeks. He was in the NICU for almost 2.5 months. He had a few interventions, and was literally on life support (feeding tubes, a cpap, a ventilator, blood transfusions)

I don’t think it would have been ethical to say, “Let’s not treat him” I don’t think his care was extraordinary, but ordinary.

This is from the catechism:

2277 Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable.
Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded.
2278 Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected. 2279 Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted. The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable Palliative care is a special form of disinterested charity. As such it should be encouraged.

I’ll try to think of some other resources to refer to you, and I’ll post them.

 

[atheistgirl]

I hope you are speaking hypothetically and you don’t have cancer and you don’t need a hysterectomy.

Thank you Mary.

Yes, I want to be clear this is a hypothetical.

I’m not sure if a hysterectomy in this scenario is considered extraordinary care or just ordinary care, especially if there would be a good prognosis with the surgery.

Let’s assume there was a good prognosis.

The quotes you gave from the catechism identify medical care that is not just extraordinary, but also medical care that could be burdensome or dangerous.

Surgery of any kind is always dangerous, and except in the most minor cases, usually burdensome.

So, considering that to be the case, could I morally refuse all treatment and let what will be, be, offering my suffering up to God for souls, and in the event of my death, I’ve done nothing morally wrong and in fact may hasten my journey to heaven?

My son was born at a little more than 28 weeks. He was in the NICU for almost 2.5 months. He had a few interventions, and was literally on life support (feeding tubes, a cpap, a ventilator, blood transfusions)

I hope your boy is now doing well.

Sarah x

 

[Julia_Mae]

So, considering that to be the case, could I morally refuse all treatment and let what will be, be, offering my suffering up to God for souls, and in the event of my death, I’ve done nothing morally wrong and in fact may hasten my journey to heaven?

Yes, you could, if you had the complete faith that God can heal you and prayed for Him to work His Will in the matter. BUT - there are also other considerations than yourself involved in making the decision: do you have loved ones that will necessarily suffer with you? Do you have children too young to understand the finer nuances of Faith and would you be modelling for them a disrespect for your own life that can later lead them into sin and disregard for their own health? Are you sure, facing this diagnosis, that you are of clear enough mind to make the decision? Have you sought spiritual guidance in the matter?

One part of placing your life in God’s hands, is knowing that any medical care might not work, anyway, if He is calling you Home. And living a life of love and charity is placing the needs of others before oneself. So there would always be a great deal to consider in such a situation. I actually know of a situation like this, where a woman was diagnosed with breast cancer and refused all treatment, opting for nutritional therapy and positive imaging. The effect on her adult son was devastating, not to mention her husband.

 

[vames]

The quotes you gave from the catechism identify medical care that is not just extraordinary, but also medical care that could be burdensome or dangerous.

Surgery of any kind is always dangerous, and except in the most minor cases, usually burdensome.

So, considering that to be the case, could I morally refuse all treatment and let what will be, be, offering my suffering up to God for souls, and in the event of my death, I’ve done nothing morally wrong and in fact may hasten my journey to heaven?

The Catechism emphasizes “the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment procedures” - this is the thing that makes the difference, since not all medical procedures which are “burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary” fit the concept of “over-zealous”. Sure, most surgical procedures are dangerous to some degree, but not every dangerous procedure can be considered “over-zealous” - if it were so, anyone could refuse the removal of gallbladder stones invoking the danger involved. Hysterectomy isn’t uncommon, exceedingly dangerous or useless - a lot of women continue their lives after such operations. So IMO it isn’t an “over-zealous” thing to request one.
The idea of “offering up” one’s physical sufferings can be *healthily * and *honestly *applied only to illnesses or pains that are beyond the means of medical science - as for everything else, we have the duty to seek healing and to fight for our lives.

 

[Joshua66]

What my illnesses have been that might not be able to compare to severity in what you are experiencing, my solution and past experiences may be able of mine may be able to help you and I’d like to share with you.
One of the great Saints I prayed to that I believe has a strong spiritual affect on such people is Saint Damien of Molokai. He truly has been proven to save those from serious illness and sickness.

his novena if you are interested,
fatherdamien.com/Damien%20Novena.pdf

I do not know if he could help you the same way he has done for me and all the sick, but I believe prayer in his name will help you. Have faith and believe.

God be with you.

 

[atheistgirl]

if it were so, anyone could refuse the removal of gallbladder stones invoking the danger involved.

Right.

And this is exactly what I’m trying to understand.

In the case of, let’s say, an otherwise healthy, young, male, refusing a simple gallbladder operation, and offering this up to God, and this young guy then dies in agony, has he done anything immoral?

Let’s also say he has two teenage children and a wife, all in agreement with him, that he should shun the operation in favor of letting God decide the outcome and he welcomes the suffering as a chance to be closer to suffering Christ.

Moral or immoral?

If he was single, with no living family, would that affect the answer and if so why?

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Yes, you could, if you had the complete faith that God can heal you and prayed for Him to work His Will in the matter.

Let’s assume I do.

do you have loved ones that will necessarily suffer with you?

No.

Do you have children too young to understand the finer nuances of Faith and would you be modeling for them a disrespect for your own life that can later lead them into sin and disregard for their own health?

No.

Are you sure, facing this diagnosis, that you are of clear enough mind to make the decision?

Yes.

Have you sought spiritual guidance in the matter?

Yes, and let’s assume the answer was to pray for guidance, and I believe with all my heart I want to offer this suffering up, shun the operation, and leave it all in God’s hands.

I then die.

Was my conduct moral or immoral?

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Are you sure, facing this diagnosis, that you are of clear enough mind to make the decision?

Stop preempting my questions.

I’m coming back to that but go with the answer I’ve given

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

What my illnesses have been that might not be able to compare to severity in what you are experiencing, my solution and past experiences may be able of mine may be able to help you and I’d like to share with you.
One of the great Saints I prayed to that I believe has a strong spiritual affect on such people is Saint Damien of Molokai. He truly has been proven to save those from serious illness and sickness.

his novena if you are interested,
fatherdamien.com/Damien%20Novena.pdf

I do not know if he could help you the same way he has done for me and all the sick, but I believe prayer in his name will help you. Have faith and believe.

God be with you.

Joshua I want to say a sincere thank you to you.

But I think you missed the post where I said this is a hypothetical situation I’m using to explore the idea of suffering in the Christian context, and to further my understanding. I know we can suffer on many levels and in many ways, not just physical, but for now I’m focusing on the suffering of the body, death and dying.

I’m very grateful to you for your sincere post.

I want to assure you I’m as well as can be and currently suppressing the urge to strangle a testy teenager who is having comprehension problems with the word NO!!!

Sarah x

 

[maltmom]

I want to assure you I’m as well as can be and currently suppressing the urge to strangle a testy teenager who is having comprehension problems with the word NO!!!

Sarah x

Offer it up!!

 

[atheistgirl]

Offer it up!!

Sarah x

 

[pablope]

Joshua I want to say a sincere thank you to you.

But I think you missed the post where I said this is a hypothetical situation I’m using to explore the idea of suffering in the Christian context, and to further my understanding. I know we can suffer on many levels and in many ways, not just physical, but for now I’m focusing on the suffering of the body, death and dying.

Sarah x

Let me make some clarification. The concept and understanding of suffering, since the protestant reformation, has deviated from Catholic understanding of suffering. I think when you said Christian, you are referring to the catholic ideas…

Anyway, I hope this helps your understanding, a short writing about suffering…acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2006/08/catechism-on-suffering-by-st-john.html

There are two ways of suffering – to suffer with love, and to suffer without love. The saints suffered everything with joy, patience, and perseverance, because they loved. As for us, we suffer with anger, vexation, and weariness, because we do not love. If we loved God, we should love crosses, we should wish for them, we should take pleasure in them. . . . We should be happy to be able to suffer for the love of Him who lovingly suffered for us. Of what do we complain? Alas! the poor infidels, who have not the happiness of knowing God and His infinite loveliness, have the same crosses that we have; but they have not the same consolations. You say it is hard? No, it is easy, it is consoling, it is sweet; it is happiness. Only we must love while we suffer, and suffer while we love.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Yes, and let’s assume the answer was to pray for guidance, and I believe with all my heart I want to offer this suffering up, shun the operation, and leave it all in God’s hands.

But we’re Catholic, and so while we pray for guidance, in a case like this, where the sanctity of life is involved, the Catholic must submit themselves to the will of the Church and the advice of their Pastor or spiritual director. That is: you have to take it to a priest.
No moral decision is made in a vacuum. There are a lot of duties to be considered, and obedience in humility is one of the more important factors.

I asked if you were sure your judgement was sound and you said “yes.” But in fact, you can’t be, because if your judgement is compromised, you cannot know. So, you must submit that judgement to authority of the Church.

I then die.

Was my conduct moral or immoral?

Saint Francis refused to feed his own body, purposely suffering and weakening himself and ate ashes, which he may not have realized could kill him, and probably caused his own death. During his last illness, he refused as much care as possible, including wishing to be laid on the cold floor instead of being in a bed covered with blankets so that he might suffer as much as possible.

No one here can judge the holiness of the kind of action you are describing, because no one can know your heart and state of mind and true intent but God. My personal answer is still:

Yes, you could, if you had the complete faith that God can heal you and prayed for Him to work His Will in the matter.

And assuming a lot of the rest of the stuff we talked about. However, I don’t think you can make a case that a hysterectomy is either extraordinary or burdensome, in the way the Church defines that. It’s also possible, that having the treatment, which surely will also entail chemotherapy, is a suffering God has made available to you to choose to accept without complaint for Him.

Your scenario involves a rather profound level of spiritual awareness. You can understand suffering for Christ and offering things up in smaller ways that are actually, in my experience, more challenging. In accepting rudeness without complaint or response, in not defending yourself if criticized for something that wasn’t your fault, in making something you don’t like for dinner because someone else does like it. In thanking God sincerely every day for every problem, because you have given Him your life and trust all things are for your benefit.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I want to assure you I’m as well as can be and currently suppressing the urge to strangle a testy teenager who is having comprehension problems with the word NO!!!

Sarah x

Having a teenager can certainly make one consider a hysterectomy. Retroactive if possible.

 

[atheistgirl]

Having a teenager can certainly make one consider a hysterectomy. Retroactive if possible.

I’m still undecided who’s worse - boys or girls.

No, I do know, it’s boys.

My girls don’t pick me up, throw me over their shoulder and put me in another room when I’m telling them stuff they don’t want to hear



Sarah x

 

[vames]

In the case of, let’s say, an otherwise healthy, young, male, refusing a simple gallbladder operation, and offering this up to God, and this young guy then dies in agony, has he done anything immoral?

Let’s also say he has two teenage children and a wife, all in agreement with him, that he should shun the operation in favor of letting God decide the outcome and he welcomes the suffering as a chance to be closer to suffering Christ.

Moral or immoral?

If he was single, with no living family, would that affect the answer and if so why?

Sarah x

I think it’s immoral, because it amounts to voluntary suicide, as long as the current medical science obviously has the means to cure this illness. And it’s immoral regardless of whether he is single, married, with children etc. This is what I’ve been taught as a child at the catechism lessons: you violate the 5th Commandment if you don’t care for your health when the medical means to cure your illness are available, since science and medicine are God’s gifts and should be put to good use. That his wife agrees etc. proves only that they are a bunch of fanatics who don’t understand their faith, because God doesn’t need anyone’s suicide or illness… for what purpose? Martyrdom? Nobody martirizes this man. Sacrifice for others? There’s nobody who needs such a sacrifice. Atonement for some terrible sins? Deep repentance and good deeds are enough. To “please” God? God would be more pleased if the man continues his life and makes good use of it.

To “offer up” suffering is not something that God needs or asks for. We are not called to redeem ourselves or to atone for others’ sins by our unnecessary suffering. What we can do is to “offer up” our *unavoidable *sufferings exactly as we “offer up” our works, good deeds, joys or prayers - in union with the merits, sufferings, joys and prayers of Jesus, Mary and the saints, as proof that we gladly accept our “cross” on Earth and that we are thankful for our life, good or bad. The emphasis that some people put on “offering up” sufferings (and moreover, the tendency to encourage the unhealthy acceptance of unnecessary suffering) is explainable only because is harder to find any meaning in unavoidable suffering (as opposed to works, joys, occasional hardships in everyday life) and if we don’t find meaning in what we have to live through, we are tempted to reject God and to fall prey to despair. It’s that simple

The current Catechism:

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him.
It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life.
We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls.
We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us.
It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life.
It is gravely contrary to the just love of self.
It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations.
Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

 

[down_under]

ah the problem of evil and suffering. jews had a good answer you will like it. Why is there evil? Why must we suffer “DONT ASK” (I believe the actual phrase is something like~"where were you when I set up the tides see job)

In the light of Christ we have a new answer to this question. If the master must suffer how much more the servants. Or paul “I make up in my body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.” Now we are removed from having to actually hurt ourselves. The church has acknowledged that we suffer quite enough without adding more. But Pauls logic is quite telling. We are called to imitate Christ to the point of actually participating in the sufferings of God. (offering it up)

to your question there is a visionary at Medjugorje who has an illness that is quite painful. She was offered to have her treatment, operation, and travel (to states) paid for, and turned them down. She agreed to “offer it up” for poor sinners. I am unclear weather this illness can kill her, that having been said no one finds this immoral in Medjugorje. They find it a profoundly Catholic thing to do. I do not know if she fits you description but the story should not too be hard to find…

voices.yahoo.com/medjugorje-visionary-vicka-irelands-late-late-7893544.html

In the most touching part of the interview, Vicka spoke of the great gift of suffering. Vicka has been afflicted with much physical suffering and illness since the apparitions began - something so many people in the world can identify with - and she offered the heavenly perspective on the beauty of suffering:

“I know you think, ‘How can it be a gift?’ But [Our Lady] told us it is a great gift…All we should ask of God is the strength to go on. Our Lady has already told us illness has a lot of value in the eyes of God.”

medjugorjeusa.org/wonders.htm
glad to see I did not waste my 10 minutes. this is a full rendering here is a bit of it…

In 1986, Vicka, (one of the visionaries from Medjugorje) suffering from increasingly painful headaches, was diagnosed as having an inoperable brain tumor and swelling of the joints which eventually resulted in high fevers and comas.
On Febuary 25th, 1988 the Blessed Virgin, instructed Vicka to write three letters: to Father Janko Bubalo, her confessor; to the Bishop’s Commission investigating the Apparitions; and to the priests in residence at the Rectory of St James, Medjugorje. These letters were sealed and delivered to the above-named persons. The instructions were not to open the envelope.

On September 25 1988 (two months and three weeks after her 24th birthday) Vicka asked the recipients of the sealed letters to open them in the presence of two witnesses. Each of the letters written seven months before, contained the same information: Vicka’s illness was God’s gift to her, not a punishment. It was accepted voluntarily, and its purpose was to help heal the illness of sinners. Her sacrifice would be completed on September 25th; on that date she would be healed of her illness.

At this time Vicka underwent tests and the brain tumor was gone.

and that is what he meant by absolute faith. Hope you don’t find this a distraction, but directly applicable to your topic. I believe this does in fact answer your question.

in Christ
Down Under

 

[Pitcharan]

…And the physical and mental suffering I would endure until my death (if I wasn’t healed or went into remission) would be considered redemptive suffering, assuming again I have that state of mind regarding offering my suffering up to God for the salvation of souls.

Is that correct?

Sarah x

For no man can buy his own ransom, or pay a price to God for his life. (Ps 49:8).

 

[Pitcharan]

I think it’s immoral, because it amounts to voluntary suicide, as long as the current medical science obviously has the means to cure this illness. And it’s immoral regardless of whether he is single, married, with children etc. This is what I’ve been taught as a child at the catechism lessons: you violate the 5th Commandment if you don’t care for your health when the medical means to cure your illness are available, since science and medicine are God’s gifts and should be put to good use. That his wife agrees etc. proves only that they are a bunch of fanatics who don’t understand their faith, because God doesn’t need anyone’s suicide or illness… for what purpose? Martyrdom? Nobody martirizes this man. Sacrifice for others? There’s nobody who needs such a sacrifice. Atonement for some terrible sins? Deep repentance and good deeds are enough. To “please” God? God would be more pleased if the man continues his life and makes good use of it.

To “offer up” suffering is not something that God needs or asks for. We are not called to redeem ourselves or to atone for others’ sins by our unnecessary suffering. What we can do is to “offer up” our *unavoidable *sufferings exactly as we “offer up” our works, good deeds, joys or prayers - in union with the merits, sufferings, joys and prayers of Jesus, Mary and the saints, as proof that we gladly accept our “cross” on Earth and that we are thankful for our life, good or bad.

Excellently put. For no man can buy his own ransom, or pay a price to God for his life. (Ps 49:8).