Suggestions on how to get a congregation to sing

[ProVobis]

I agree. I don’t meant to brag, but my musical intelligence is pretty high so when I hear tons of notes that don’t fit well together, like a lot of c’s and c sharp’s, I immediately am distracted from a bad sounding crowd of singers if I’m not on guard. I can understand the idea of everyone singing as it can cause participation, but I don’t sing, so I just tune it out and focus on the Mass.

I don’t see anything wrong with this. As we as a congregation tend to recite in conditioned cadences and sing in syllables and rhymes, it’s easy to see how this itself can be distracting from the proper focus on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which we’re obligated to assist at, preferably with full minds.

 

[Te_Deum]

Not to form any judgements here but I was under the impression that making responses is one of the duties of serving in an EF. And the amount of singing in a Missa Cantata is very minimal, such as “Et cum spiritu tuo,” “Amen,” “Gloria tibi Domini” but there is no rule forcing you to sing or chant those.

I thought so as well. So when I served my first Missa Cantata (it was on the fly, though I had been regularly serving Low Mass) I started reciting the prayers at the foot of the altar with the MC… alone. That was with the FSSP. When I served diocesan it was exactly the same. At the Missa Cantata here only the MC responds (though at the FSSP Mass everyone recited the 3rd Confiteor).

I cannot remember whether or not the MC responded at the Solemn High Mass I once attended (didn’t serve). But the candle-bearers etc., didn’t.

No he’s not. People absolutely respond along with the schola at missa cantatas.

There are simply different practises. Yes, the people at the Missa Cantata that I have served did make the responses but the servers different. I find it weird as well but it’s just the way we do it.

 

[liturgyluver]

I’m confused. Are we supposed to sing during Mass?

You are supposed to sing the hymns that are listed if you are attending a mass with hymns- these are written for the congregation with support from the choir. But the choir - if it’s good - may sing alone an anthem or motet, usually during communion. That’s what should happen in theory: but as you’ll see from this thread, many Catholic congregations just don’t sing, so you’re right to be confused.

Of course there are also fully choral services where the music is dominated by the choir’s splendid singing or chanting.

 

[happymommy]

YoungTradCath, this so incredibly sad.

I assume that you really are young. I apologize from the bottom of my heart for being part of the hideous, awful society that has managed to convey to you the wrong idea that singing in a group is something unpleasant that you would prefer to avoid.

In the past, corporate singing, especially among Christians, has been a source of joy, strength, and encouragement. Christian brothers and sisters joined their voices in beautiful songs of praise to God, and in so doing, became friends to the death. In fact, in the days of the martyrs, many marched into the bloody arenas singing hymns and songs and spiritual songs to help each other have courage to face their final agonies.

Now you see corporate singing as an obtrusive chore, something that interferes with your ability to worship God and receive Jesus.

That, to me, is so very very sad. I am 54 years old, and in my world, which obviously isn’t your world, singing with my Christian brothers and sisters is a foretaste of what heaven will be like. Singing with others helps me to focus on Jesus Christ and receive Him.

How did the Church get to this state, where young people are refusing to sing in Mass? We should be ashamed.

Well, some of us just don’t like to sing:blush: I’m 36, not young, but not too old yet Grew up Protestant where hymn sings were common. I still don’t like to sing. I’m hoping I can still get into Heaven, even if I don’t want to sing:shrug:

It doesn’t mean I’m not focused at Mass, it just means that music is not something that is terribly important to me and that I don’t like to or want to sing. We can’t police the pews making sure everyone is singing every hymn. I say to those that are bothered by people around them that are not singing, focus on your worship time and allow those around you to do the same.

Now, my husband has a beautiful voice and loves to sing! He and my children belt out the songs and it sounds lovely. I would rather listen to them than sing.

 

[PRmerger]

I still don’t like to sing. I’m hoping I can still get into Heaven, even if I don’t want to sing:shrug:

:yup:

 

[TrueLight]

I thought so as well. So when I served my first Missa Cantata (it was on the fly, though I had been regularly serving Low Mass) I started reciting the prayers at the foot of the altar with the MC… alone. That was with the FSSP. When I served diocesan it was exactly the same. At the Missa Cantata here only the MC responds (though at the FSSP Mass everyone recited the 3rd Confiteor).

I cannot remember whether or not the MC responded at the Solemn High Mass I once attended (didn’t serve). But the candle-bearers etc., didn’t.

There are simply different practises. Yes, the people at the Missa Cantata that I have served did make the responses but the servers different. I find it weird as well but it’s just the way we do it.

I’m only referring to the “et cum spiritu tuos”, the Amens, “Habemus Ad Dominum” etc.

I’m not speaking about all the server parts like the prayers at the foot of the altar.

And of course the recessional hymn such as the Salve Regina.

Are you saying you have been to sung or high masses where no one in the congregation sings those parts?

 

[Te_Deum]

Are you saying you have been to sung or high masses where no one in the congregation sings those parts?

No I’ve not but it’s not an absolute liturgical rule. The congregation will sing them here. What I’m saying is that the servers, which I tend to be counted amongst, don’t except for the MC.

 

[Canto]

Our participation at Mass is above all internal, uniting oneself to the sacrifice of Christ.
Yes we can bow, genuflect, kneel, strike the breast and chant the dialogue between the Priest and the people and of course sacred silence, but we are not required to sing 4 songs at Mass.

Here are some nit picks…
Musicam Sacram
Instruction On Music In The Liturgy
Sacred Congregation of Rites * March 5, 1967

1. …"each person, minister or layman, should carry out all and only those parts which pertain to his office by the nature of the rite and the norms of the Liturgy."5 This also demands that the meaning and proper nature of each part and of each song be carefully observed…
2. …in selecting the parts which are to be sung, one should start with those that are by their nature of greater importance, and especially those which are to be sung by the priest or by the ministers, with the people replying, or those which are to be sung by the priest and people together. The other parts may be gradually added according as they are proper to the people alone or to the choir alone.
3. Whenever, for a liturgical service which is to be celebrated in sung form, one can make a choice between various people, it is desirable that those who are known to be more proficient in singing be given preference; this is especially the case in more solemn liturgical celebrations and in those which either require more difficult singing, or are transmitted by radio or television.6
4. In selecting the kind of sacred music to be used, whether it be for the choir or for the people, the capacities of those who are to sing the music must be taken into account. …

15 …The faithful should also be taught to unite themselves interiorly to what the ministers or choir sing, so that by** listening** to them they may raise their minds to God.

1. Because of the liturgical ministry it performs, the choir – or the Capella musica, or schola cantorum – deserves particular mention. Its role has become something of yet greater importance and weight by reason of the norms of the Council concerning the liturgical renewal. Its duty is, in effect, to ensure the proper performance of the parts which belong to it, according to the different kinds of music sung, and to encourage the active participation of the faithful in the singing. Therefore:

(a) There should be choirs, or Capellae, or scholae cantorum, especially in cathedrals and other major churches, in seminaries and religious houses of studies, and they should be carefully encouraged.

(b) It would also be desirable for similar choirs to be set up in smaller churches.

1. The distinction between solemn, sung and read Mass, sanctioned by the Instruction of 1958 (n. 3), is retained, according to the traditional liturgical laws at present in force. However, for the sung Mass (Missa cantata), different degrees of participation are put forward here for reasons of pastoral usefulness, so that it may become easier to make the celebration of Mass more beautiful by singing, according to the capabilities of each congregation.

These degrees are so arranged that the first may be used even by itself, but the second and third, wholly or partially,** may never be used without the first**. In this way the faithful will be continually led toward an ever greater participation in the singing.

 

[Canto]

1. The following belong to the first degree:

(a) In the entrance rites: the greeting of the priest together with the reply of the people; the prayer.

(b) In the Liturgy of the Word: the acclamations at the Gospel.

(c) In the Eucharistic Liturgy: the prayer over the offerings; the preface with its dialogue and the Sanctus; the final doxology of the Canon, the Lord’s Prayer with its introduction and embolism; the Pax Domini; the prayer after the Communion; the formulas of dismissal.

1. The following belong to the second degree:

(a) the Kyrie, Gloria and Agnus Dei;

(b) the Creed;

(c) the prayer of the faithful.

1. The following belong to the third degree:

(a) the songs at the Entrance and Communion processions;

(b) the songs after the Lesson or Epistle;

(c) the Alleluia before the Gospel;

(d) the song at the Offertory;

(e) the readings of Sacred Scripture, unless it seems more suitable to proclaim them without singing.

1. The custom legitimately in use in certain places and widely confirmed by indults, of substituting other songs for the songs given in the Graduale for the Entrance, Offertory and Communion, can be retained according to the judgment of the competent territorial authority, as long as songs of this sort are in keeping with the parts of the Mass, with the feast or with the liturgical season. It is for the same territorial authority to approve the texts of these songs.
2. It is desirable that the assembly of the faithful should participate in the songs of the Proper as much as possible, especially through simple responses and other suitable settings.

The song after the lessons, be it in the form of gradual or responsorial psalm, has a special importance among the songs of the Proper. By its very nature, it forms part of the Liturgy, of the Word. It should be performed with all seated and listening to it – and, what is more, participating in it as far as possible.

1. The songs which are called the “Ordinary of the Mass”, if they are sung by musical settings written for several voices may be performed by the choir according to the customary norms, either a capella, or with instrumental accompaniment, as long as the people are not completely excluded from taking part in the singing.

For the last degree the US GIRM says
48. This chant is sung alternately by the choir and the people or similarly by a cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting; (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduale Simplex for the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

---

So the Entrance, Offertory and Communion chants are the last option.
And within this option the last option is to sing “another liturgical chant”
or as happens in many churches I’ve been to here in Oz, 4 songs.

Enjoying the thread!

 

[liturgyluver]

Our participation at Mass is above all internal, uniting oneself to the sacrifice of Christ.
Yes we can bow, genuflect, kneel, strike the breast and chant the dialogue between the Priest and the people and of course sacred silence, but we are not required to sing 4 songs at Mass.

Here are some nit picks…
Musicam Sacram
Instruction On Music In The Liturgy
Sacred Congregation of Rites * March 5, 1967

1. …"each person, minister or layman, should carry out all and only those parts which pertain to his office by the nature of the rite and the norms of the Liturgy."5 This also demands that the meaning and proper nature of each part and of each song be carefully observed…
2. …in selecting the parts which are to be sung, one should start with those that are by their nature of greater importance, and especially those which are to be sung by the priest or by the ministers, with the people replying, or those which are to be sung by the priest and people together. The other parts may be gradually added according as they are proper to the people alone or to the choir alone.
3. Whenever, for a liturgical service which is to be celebrated in sung form, one can make a choice between various people, it is desirable that those who are known to be more proficient in singing be given preference; this is especially the case in more solemn liturgical celebrations and in those which either require more difficult singing, or are transmitted by radio or television.6
4. In selecting the kind of sacred music to be used, whether it be for the choir or for the people, the capacities of those who are to sing the music must be taken into account. …

15 …The faithful should also be taught to unite themselves interiorly to what the ministers or choir sing, so that by** listening** to them they may raise their minds to God.

1. Because of the liturgical ministry it performs, the choir – or the Capella musica, or schola cantorum – deserves particular mention. Its role has become something of yet greater importance and weight by reason of the norms of the Council concerning the liturgical renewal. Its duty is, in effect, to ensure the proper performance of the parts which belong to it, according to the different kinds of music sung, and to encourage the active participation of the faithful in the singing. Therefore:

(a) There should be choirs, or Capellae, or scholae cantorum, especially in cathedrals and other major churches, in seminaries and religious houses of studies, and they should be carefully encouraged.

(b) It would also be desirable for similar choirs to be set up in smaller churches.

1. The distinction between solemn, sung and read Mass, sanctioned by the Instruction of 1958 (n. 3), is retained, according to the traditional liturgical laws at present in force. However, for the sung Mass (Missa cantata), different degrees of participation are put forward here for reasons of pastoral usefulness, so that it may become easier to make the celebration of Mass more beautiful by singing, according to the capabilities of each congregation.

These degrees are so arranged that the first may be used even by itself, but the second and third, wholly or partially,** may never be used without the first**. In this way the faithful will be continually led toward an ever greater participation in the singing.

I have read this and your subsequent post and think it’s really helpful to have here in this thread as reference, and it helps give useful background to where we are now. Surely, though this was written to give direction to Dioceses and priests to decide how best to decide which parts of the liturgy should be sung and by whom, and when deciding this to ensure that they give priority to those of most importance. I think this is very important and fully agree with this.

What I struggle with is how it operates on a practical basis: Having taken a decision on what parts of the mass should be sung - and whether or not hymns should be added, surley then the expectation is that the congregation engages with what is presented, and doesn’t opt in or out of different parts. If the choir is present and singing the ordinary to a choral setting (as they should) then it’s not appropriate for the congregation to sing, but if it’s a congregational setting of the ordinary (which in my experience in most catholic churches it is nowadays) or there is no choir then they are expected to.

One answer of course why people don’t sing could be that Catholic congregations recognise the threefold hierarchy that you described above, and do opt in and out. I’ve noticed slightly more engagement with the ordinaries of the mass compared with the hymns but not masively so. And when I’ve asked people this isn’t what they tell me.

I agree with you that it’s really interesting to explore these themes.

 

[YoungTradCath]

The thing about it is, though, I doubt that document is going to have much cred with many people because it’s “pre-Vatican II,” and therefore effectively doesn’t exist anymore. So sad.

 

[Sarabande]

The thing about it is, though, I doubt that document is going to have much cred with many people because it’s “pre-Vatican II,” and therefore effectively doesn’t exist anymore. So sad.

Actually, what Canto posted is from 1967. That said, people still don’t give it any credit. When I was a children’s choir/handbell choir director, I did take this to my pastor and he completely discredited it. He gave no reasons, which except that he wanted things his way. I was kind of strange to him because he couldn’t understand why a young person like me - I was in my mid-20s - would even be interested in these documents and not be into band/rock music for mass. I was too “traditional” for him and he didn’t like the idea that I actually was able to teach the children chant. He didn’t even like the fact that I used “traditional” Christmas hymns (you know… Silent Night, O Come All Ye Faithful, etc.) for their concert and Christmas Eve mass.

He was the boss, though, so his was the final word. Needless-to-say, I left because we had such different outlooks on liturgical music and liturgy in general. By the time I left, many people in the congregation were buying into what he wanted to do and were even saying that it was good it was becoming more like a Baptist service and less “Catholic”. (Just to give you an idea of how the liturgies were led).

 

[YoungTradCath]

Actually, what Canto posted is from 1967. That said, people still don’t give it any credit. When I was a children’s choir/handbell choir director, I did take this to my pastor and he completely discredited it. He gave no reasons, which except that he wanted things his way. I was kind of strange to him because he couldn’t understand why a young person like me - I was in my mid-20s - would even be interested in these documents and not be into band/rock music for mass. I was too “traditional” for him and he didn’t like the idea that I actually was able to teach the children chant. He didn’t even like the fact that I used “traditional” Christmas hymns (you know… Silent Night, O Come All Ye Faithful, etc.) for their concert and Christmas Eve mass.

He was the boss, though, so his was the final word. Needless-to-say, I left because we had such different outlooks on liturgical music and liturgy in general. By the time I left, many people in the congregation were buying into what he wanted to do and were even saying that it was good it was becoming more like a Baptist service and less “Catholic”. (Just to give you an idea of how the liturgies were led).

I feel super dumb. I read that as 1957.

 

[Te_Deum]

If it makes you smile TrueLight, I was at a Missa Cantata today and wasn’t serving so I sang all my ‘Et cum spiritu tuo’ and ‘Habemus ad dominum’.

 

[TrueLight]

If it makes you smile TrueLight, I was at a Missa Cantata today and wasn’t serving so I sang all my ‘Et cum spiritu tuo’ and ‘Habemus ad dominum’.

Yes!

Yesterday at my missa cantata, I felt like I was the lone voice singing the credo, along with the cantor (We didn’t have the choir yesterday).

It was so awkward and I felt myself holding back.

By the way, it was the Credo III, which a lot of people know!

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

The MOST effective thing I have encountered in the Music Director would Before Mass, introduce any new Music that was to be used. A verse would be sung by [MD] and then again by the chior; then by the congregation. Then ALL would do it togeather.

God Bless,
Pat

We have the rosary before Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

I feel super dumb. I read that as 1957.

You’re not dumb and don’t feel super dumb. I do the same thing too. Although we could just be dumb together.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

I see various comments on congregations who just do not sing. Perhaps we could collect some ideas on how to encourage singing. I think one way may be some orientation and teaching. Especially in those congregations who have been used to being silent, they may need to know that singing/music is a form of worship. I don’t know if this is to be called catechesis, but almost. It would be good to have the support of the Pastor. Taking time to select music that is singable and not completely out of range for the average singer would be important also. Other thoughts? How about the choir members and directors among us chiming in here.

Sometimes people like to meditate during the music. I usually sing unless the song is protestant and the words are inappropriate.

I would rather see more people open their missal and follow along with the mass.

 

[Ohana]

“I usually sing unless the song is protestant and the words are inappropriate.”

I see comments like this on many of the threads on music. I do not know what this means. What are Protestant hymns versus Catholic Hymns. What characterizes each? I recognize that some in our hymnals are authored by Luther, or come from another tradition so those are easy. What about others? I really am perplexed.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

To be honest, I think catechesis. The congregation will naturally only sing songs that they like, and at the moment that mostly refers to the 60’s and 70’s kumbaya stuff. Catechesis would hopefully educate the average Joe Catholic on what singing at Mass is all about.