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CapitalistCatholic
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What is your opinion on Pope Benedict’s Summorum Pontificum? Pros and Cons?
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Irishmom2
Guest
Perhaps you could start the discussion off?
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CapitalistCatholic
Guest
Yes, I suppose I should.
I don’t know more than what I’ve been told, but from what I gather, it’s been an overall good thing. I have been looking for a pdf of the actual document though.
I don’t know more than what I’ve been told, but from what I gather, it’s been an overall good thing. I have been looking for a pdf of the actual document though.
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RedDuke
Guest
I definitely like it. It’s been great for those that want to go to the Traditional Latin Mass because it’s helped make it more available. I haven’t heard many cons against it besides the usual stuff that people say who dislike the old Mass and don’t want it to spread.
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CilladeRoma
Guest
The only con, as far as I am concerned, is the “liturgy wars” that started because of it.
In fact, there is a thread right now about the “Protestant OF”.
My experience with the EF has been this- those who remember the Mass because they grew up with it are happy that the option is available to them, but for the most part attend the OF.
Most of the people I know who attend the EF exclusively are younger, (20’s &30’s)who never experienced it as the ordinary form Mass but now see it as some type of panacea against modernism.
In fact, there is a thread right now about the “Protestant OF”.
My experience with the EF has been this- those who remember the Mass because they grew up with it are happy that the option is available to them, but for the most part attend the OF.
Most of the people I know who attend the EF exclusively are younger, (20’s &30’s)who never experienced it as the ordinary form Mass but now see it as some type of panacea against modernism.
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Mtatum1958
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Pretty easy, the pdf can be obtained at the Vatican website (or am I missing something).
summorum-pontificum.pdf
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CapitalistCatholic
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Thanks!
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CapitalistCatholic
Guest
After reading the document, or at least most of it, it looks like a very good thing. Not only did it provide the laity with Traditional Latin worship, but it looks to also be reviving the faith of the youth in this generation.
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OraLabora
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At the risk of attracting flames, I think it was a mistake and overly divisive. It would have been better to limit its use, and instead focus on improving the OF Mass. It can be done. I attend a beautiful OF Mass in a Benedictine abbey, with all the trimmings (Gregorian chant, incense, bells, reverence, sacred silence before Mass, and after each reading, and I could go on). I honestly have no desire to seek out an EF Mass because of the beauty of the liturgy at the OF Mass I attend. I think if OF Masses like the above were more widely available, the EF wouldn’t be necessary for the most part.
There seems to be an element of “oh, if you want traditional Catholic worship, just go to the EF”, when there is no reason why the OF cannot be made to conform to deep Catholic tradition. Moreover, because the EF is in the care of enthusiasts, it is almost always reverent. This was not always the case when it was the only form of the Mass; there were plenty of abuses then too. A Low Mass recited in a low voice at warp speed in 15-20 minutes was hardly reverent…
There seems to be an element of “oh, if you want traditional Catholic worship, just go to the EF”, when there is no reason why the OF cannot be made to conform to deep Catholic tradition. Moreover, because the EF is in the care of enthusiasts, it is almost always reverent. This was not always the case when it was the only form of the Mass; there were plenty of abuses then too. A Low Mass recited in a low voice at warp speed in 15-20 minutes was hardly reverent…
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CapitalistCatholic
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No one said there couldn’t be reverence at an Ordinary Mass. It’s often a misunderstanding of the liturgical reforms brought on by Vatican II. I’ve seen some beautiful Ordinary Masses, but sometimes they can really turn me off. The Basilica of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception is one example:
They can either be really good, or slightly worse. Those cantors are just so
If only the congregation would sing.
They can either be really good, or slightly worse. Those cantors are just so
If only the congregation would sing.
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Joe_5859
Guest
As a document, I like it. I like most Church documents. 
Practically speaking, I don’t know how much of an impact it has really had, though. It might just be my personal experience. I’d be interested to hear from people who experienced some great increase in the celebration of the EF because of it. I haven’t noticed any difference in the places I have lived.
Practically speaking, I don’t know how much of an impact it has really had, though. It might just be my personal experience. I’d be interested to hear from people who experienced some great increase in the celebration of the EF because of it. I haven’t noticed any difference in the places I have lived.
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Jbrady
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I think it failed overall. It was designed to divert financial and political support by a tiny fraction of the faithful away from the SSPX and other schismatic groups back to the RCC, and in that, it somewhat succeeded, It did fail in forcing the whole SSPX to reintegrate, and probably made that schism permanent with no hope of reunion.
The unintended consequence is that it greatly aggravated internal divisions, which ended up driving out more Catholics out in the end than it brought in, together with their dollars and euros.
Now we are faced with an internal schism that is more rancorous than the former. Things are pretty much at a stalemate right now pending the next papal election.
If another Francis is elected, the Trads and ultraconservatives are sure to jump ship. If another Benedict is elected, a lot of the moderates and progressives will bolt.
We are due for the same kind of schism that split the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and the United Methodist Church.
Without SP, the SSPX could have functioned as a pressure valve to decrease the severity of internal fracture.
The unintended consequence is that it greatly aggravated internal divisions, which ended up driving out more Catholics out in the end than it brought in, together with their dollars and euros.
Now we are faced with an internal schism that is more rancorous than the former. Things are pretty much at a stalemate right now pending the next papal election.
If another Francis is elected, the Trads and ultraconservatives are sure to jump ship. If another Benedict is elected, a lot of the moderates and progressives will bolt.
We are due for the same kind of schism that split the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and the United Methodist Church.
Without SP, the SSPX could have functioned as a pressure valve to decrease the severity of internal fracture.
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CapitalistCatholic
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Interesting take on it. Not familiar with the SSPX.
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leonhardprintz
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Honestly I think you like that. Though I also appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Its nice to hear a contrary point in these discussions.
How utterly good for you. I’m glad things are working out in your part of the world. Meanwhile the parish I’m from had movies set up by eager jesuits during the mass. And all sorts of strange antics.
Can you honestly blame me for being happy at finding a breathing space in a small tight knit group of Catholics who four times a year found a priest, and got permission to celebrate the older form of the liturgy?
Meanwhile I don’t think banning the EF will in any way result in a strong liturgical reform of the OF. I think the OF is just going to multiplicate in uses and freedoms. If anything I see it growing more lax as time goes by, not the other way around, and I’ve seen no sign in this pontificate or the previous one for that to change.
I agree though that the OF can be done in a pious and proper way.
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Jbrady
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Every word of SP was carefully crafted to respond to the perceived (and, in my opinion, hysterically exaggerated) existential threat to the RCC posed by the SSPX. You’re not going to make much sense of SP without knowing the historical context in which it was composed and the problems it was intended to address.
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Dovekin
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Isn’t allowing the EF an example of multiplying uses and freedom? Of growing more lax?
That is where I see the real problems with SP. It encourages diversity and divergences while undercutting a shared celebration where people come together. Luckily it is too small of a group to make much difference.
The Big Thing in SP was allowing every priest to celebrate the EF. If they had the training. If the bishop approved. If it did not take away from parish celebrations. If, if, if. How many priests want to celebrate the EF to learn how to do it? Any numbers available? I do not know of any in my diocese. How many do it because their bishop wants them to? How many do it because it is a personal preference? As a pastoral initiative? Because people want it?
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leonhardprintz
Guest
Yes that wouldn’t be unfair to say. Again its just the way of things. Do you see any signs of that pathway changing?
I know of a few including the bishop himself who came and celebrated the EF for our tiny group. He himself celebrates it once per month.
The strange thing is that the only divergences I’ve seen have come from people who are in favor of the OF. I went to both happily, but they saw us as strange and dangerous.
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OraLabora
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Not really, I don’t relish it. I hesitated to post in fact, because of it, but caved because I don’t believe I should be silenced out of fear of flames.
The OF Mass can be hit-or-miss, I won’t argue with that. However I don’t think the EF was the answer. The answer is for better liturgical discipline.
My biggest beef is bad/corny music. I honestly prefer a quiet spoken Mass to one with bad music.
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leonhardprintz
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I rarely post on this forum at all. Its very American in its focus. I’m glad of your responses, even if you’re just insisting that the OF is pitch perfect in your neck of the woods. I’m glad of that. Honestly I am. The only thing I’ll say is that posts like that come off as a little bit tone-deaf to the absolutely horrendous masses out there. And to the joy the EF communities has brought to some Catholics.
That mass wasn’t hit-or-miss. It was close-your-eyes-and-endure. It was pure do-it-for-jesus. And just-be-quiet-and-fulfill-sunday-obligation. Finding those EF buddies was a breath of fresh air, they did more to keep me sane during those years, than anything else I saw in that parish.
I would be on your side if the EF actually stood in the way of a liturgical reform. The thing is though that I just don’t see any real sign of a liturgical reform. The reform of the reform movement seems to be entirely dead.
Thankfully danish hymnology is somber and pious, though I’ll take a spoken Mass anyday as long as it is carried out properly.
Those masses became my favorite with that attrocious mass.
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OraLabora
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Actually, at the parish level, it is far from perfect. But at the Benedictine monastery, I’m willing to make the 35 minute drive every Sunday (plus Wednesdays when I volunteer at the abbey library as assistant librarian) because the liturgy is just about as perfect as you can get; sometimes I can perceive minor mistakes in the chant, but for someone who didn’t know chant they wouldn’t be able to tell. Just yesterday at Lauds I heard someone go off the melody for the psalm mode (accent on the wrong syllable) during Lauds, I looked up and sure enough a monk was on his knees making satisfaction for the mistake. They are, after all, human.
I do have to say though, at least with respect to music, I hear a lot of complaining around these parts, and in many cases the complaints are understandable because the music Really Is That Bad and basically un-singable. Instead of complaining though, I decided to act, and I joined a Gregorian schola back in 2002. I had to learn it from scratch (thanks to a very demanding but benevolent Benedictine choirmaster who was willing to knock it into a newbie like me), and have been practicing it ever since. On a daily basis in fact as I pray the Liturgy of the Hours in Gregorian chant. The schola chants about once a month at Mass, sometimes Vespers and Lauds, and we do funerals and a wedding (i.e. we’ve only done one wedding, for a chorister’s daughter). We rotate from parish to parish. This Sunday, Laetare Sunday, we are doing Vespers followed by the 5 pm Mass at the cathedral.
I understand about the American bias, I have found the same thing here. I am from French Canada which has its own distinct flavour of Catholicism.
I don’t believe it stands in the way of liturgical reform. But I believe it fosters laziness on the OF side. I’ve heard the response here that if one doesn’t like the liturgy, one should seek out an EF Mass. That does nothing for reform. The EF is not the panacea for bad OF liturgy. Liturgical discipline in the OF is the panacea for bad OF liturgy.
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