Summorum Pontificum Opinion

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I wouldn’t say they’re a tiny fraction, but they are a minority.
 
twf said:
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OraLabora:
My biggest beef is bad/corny music. I honestly prefer a quiet spoken Mass to one with bad music.
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Yeah…in the town where my parents live, the 6 PM Sunday evening Mass featured a cantor who couldn’t carry a tune. The dear lady meant well but she was truly DREADFUL. As I understand it, that Mass no longer has a cantor / choir…Father simply chants his bits and leads the hymns himself a Capella. Definitely preferable.
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There is nobody “who cannot carry a tune” in the EF? No one who is unqualified has ever been put in an inappropriate ministry?

If this is true, it is what should be promoted about the EF. None of this talk about “reverence,” “more mystery,” “better understood,” and the like. Impeccable management of ministers is a better selling point! No mistakes ever!
 
Dovekin said:
There is nobody “who cannot carry a tune” in the EF?
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There is a certain amount of truth to the “Catholics can’t sing to save their lives” trope. And we earned that reputation looooooong before Vatican II was on the horizon.

And it’s not a liberal/conservative thing, either. I spent 12 years in Poland, a rather conservative country, and cringed at every single mass. Except once, when the Choir was a Russian Orthodox choir from Belarus. They kick us and the Protestants out of the water.
 
Dovekin said:
There is nobody “who cannot carry a tune” in the EF? No one who is unqualified has ever been put in an inappropriate ministry?
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There is an EF Mass at a parish in a city about 100 km from here. Another chorister/oblate that I know, who also lead a Gregorian schola himself for many years in that city, said their Gregorian chant is dreadful. And they’re allergic to getting help from experts outside the parish. Apparently the pastor is a very good and holy priest though, I believe FSSP, but it would appear he’s not calling the shots on the music.
 
Pretty sure both Ora and I were talking about good vs bad music within the context of the OF.
 
How does “a cantor who couldn’t carry a tune” in the OF tell us something about SP? Wouldn’t “a cantor who couldn’t carry a tune” produce bad music in the EF? It does not tell us anything about how good or bad the music is.

Except that singing in Latin is harder than singing in one’s native language, so bad music from “a cantor who couldn’t carry a tune” is probably more likely in the EF?
 
Does the EF have cantors? I thought that was a relatively new thing.
 
My post was a direct reply to Ora’s post where he said he prefers Mass with no cantor / choir to a Mass with bad music. It wasn’t a general reply to the thread as a whole.

That said, the EF Masses I’ve been to have featured out of this world polyphonic scholas… but I’ve also experienced that at OF Masses. I’m sure there are EF Masses with poor music, but it is probably less likely today as those who celebrate / attend the EF tend to be “enthusiasts” who go out of their way.
 
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And I am just commenting that OF and EF both have experiences with bad music. It is not going to go away if we adopt the EF universally.

I have heard Latin pronounced with a Southern drawl and with thick Boston accent. It was horrifying! That tells me nothing about the EF, just as yours tells me nothing about the OF. If it tells me anything, it is that the EF has bad music.
 
Jbrady said:
I think it failed overall. It was designed to divert financial and political support by a tiny fraction of the faithful away from the SSPX and other schismatic groups back to the RCC, and in that, it somewhat succeeded, It did fail in forcing the whole SSPX to reintegrate, and probably made that schism permanent with no hope of reunion.

The unintended consequence is that it greatly aggravated internal divisions, which ended up driving out more Catholics out in the end than it brought in, together with their dollars and euros.

Now we are faced with an internal schism that is more rancorous than the former. Things are pretty much at a stalemate right now pending the next papal election.

If another Francis is elected, the Trads and ultraconservatives are sure to jump ship. If another Benedict is elected, a lot of the moderates and progressives will bolt.

We are due for the same kind of schism that split the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and the United Methodist Church.

Without SP, the SSPX could have functioned as a pressure valve to decrease the severity of internal fracture.
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I really have to disagree with this pessimistic point of view.

It hasn’t increased internal division, especially among the laity. It hasn’t driven out the laity from the Church either. I’m not aware of a single person who left the Catholic Church due to the propagation of this document — not a single one. I know a good number who have left the Church but for other reasons.

And I doubt that many Trads or even ultraconservatives would jump ship if another “Frances” was elected Pope. Where would they go?

I do agree if another “Benedict” or someone even more conservative than Pope Benedict was elected pope, more progressives would bolt. (They’re the ones I see bolting from the Catholic Church even with Pope Francis as the Pope.) Many Catholic progressives won’t be happy unless and until the Catholic Church becomes some sort of clone of the more liberal mainline Protestant churches. I have confidence in God that God will never let that happen to our Church.

And no, I don’t see any sort of schism occurring to the Catholic Church that has occurred with the Episcopal, Presbyterian, Lutheran and Methodist churches in America.

I believe that the greatest and gravest threat the Catholic Church faces in our era has nothing to do with the form of Mass that’s celebrated in our churches (be it OF or EF), but with the holiness, or more specifically, the LACK of holiness of many of the clergy that are permitted to remain in our Church. These sexual abuse scandals which have rocked the Church are having a far greater impact to the health of the Catholic Church than the debate between the OF or EF of our Holy Mass.
 
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OraLabora said:
My biggest beef is bad/corny music. I honestly prefer a quiet spoken Mass to one with bad music.
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That, and lazy irreverent handling of the Eucharist by laity.

If I could find a reverent OF without cheesy 70s music I’d probably go to that over the EF.

I love the EF but I do think there is something to be said for the prayers being offered audibly by the priest (even in Latin). One thing I don’t like about the EF is that I have to read (rather than hear) and guess where the priest is up to. I often find myself thinking “What? We’re already up to the Sanctus?”
 
Dovekin said:
There is nobody “who cannot carry a tune” in the EF? No one who is unqualified has ever been put in an inappropriate ministry?
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My gripe is not with the ability of the singers so much as the choice of song. Give me a tone deaf chorister any day over a baby-boomer strumming a guitar singing some cheesy 70s ditty that sounds like a bad Methodist Sunday School song.
 
Come to mass with me at my parish and I’ll show you what I mean.

And yes, when we’re talking about the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord, I do not apologise for having exacting standards of reverence.
 
One thing that the Latin Mass is bringing is a lot of young people. I myself prefer the Latin Mass because of it’s reverence, and for those saying that traditional Catholics are small in number; we might be small but we are growing. According to some some statistics traditional priest who only celebrate the traditional mass in France, made up 20% of ordinations in France in 2018. This is not including the SSPX which is growing rapidly.

www.google.com

Over 20% of newly-ordained priests in France belong to traditional, orthodox orders - LifeSite

If current trends continue, more than half of priests in France will be traditional in 2038
www.google.com www.google.com
 
CSPaxChristi said:
According to some some statistics traditional priest who only celebrate the traditional mass in France,
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One of the most prolific communities in France, Communauté St. Martin, has 100 in seminary, and runs at capacity. It had to move to a new site because of it. Interestingly they use the OF Mass only, but they form their priests in Latin and Gregorian chant which they use for their own liturgy. They produced the excellent antiphonary Les Heures Grégoriennes noted for Gregorian chant, in Latin and French alongside.

I use it myself, it is superb, you can chant all the day hours in Latin Grogorian chant. I produced my own antiphonary for the Office of Readings using the references in Ordo Cantus Officii.

Which proves the EF has nothing to do with producing reverent and beautiful liturgies. It is all a matter of attitude and effort.
 
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