Sunday Mass Dilemma

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My husband and I were just visiting and it was 15+ years ago, so internet research for trips or mapping was not really a thing then. No smart phones, either. We had no idea about any buses. I just remember a lot of trudging through the snow…Things were different, back in the day.

That might have been the trip when the Schwarzenegger family was at Sun Valley, too. I didn’t see them, but the rest of the family did.

(I have never figured out how my family ever afforded Sun Valley. My grandpa fell in love with skiing because of his WWII ski training. I believe that when he first took his family to Sun Valley, they used to just go up the hill on their own steam, no lift ticket, no sirree!)

This is too funny. My mom is actually at the lodge right now. The just did a huge remodel. I’ll tell you that my whole family skis. Except for my wife. We cannot afford to ski sun valley more than a couple times a year, but back in my youth I was a ski instructor there. (about 15 years ago…) I also drove the Zamboni for a summer at the ice rink. I grew up upper middle and now well, you know about our situation. 1 income (wife’s) and 5 kids. We are moving back to Idaho in about two weeks. You ask how people can afford it? Well if you live in that type of area there are ways. There is a nice ski resort outside of Boise, Called Bogus Basin. A season pass is 199. (even cheaper for kids) So it is definitely doable. I proposed to my wife On Center Ice at the lodge. My sister Got married in SV. And we go there every year for thanksgiving. It is an amazing place!

 

[Xantippe]

This is too funny. My mom is actually at the lodge right now. The just did a huge remodel. I’ll tell you that my whole family skis. Except for my wife. We cannot afford to ski sun valley more than a couple times a year, but back in my youth I was a ski instructor there. (about 15 years ago…) I also drove the Zamboni for a summer at the ice rink. I grew up upper middle and now well, you know about our situation. 1 income (wife’s) and 5 kids. We are moving back to Idaho in about two weeks. You ask how people can afford it? Well if you live in that type of area there are ways. There is a nice ski resort outside of Boise, Called Bogus Basin. A season pass is 199. (even cheaper for kids) So it is definitely doable. I proposed to my wife On Center Ice at the lodge. My sister Got married in SV. And we go there every year for thanksgiving. It is an amazing place!

I bet you were so cool back in the day! Especially driving the Zamboni!

My family is Western WA, so we weren’t at all locals. (Although my mom’s family is Eastern WA/Idaho and my parents did their MAs at University of Idaho.)

That trip to Sun Valley was probably my last shot at downhill skiing (we’ve since managed to get our kids in lessons once in British Columbia). My very new husband didn’t downhill ski and was spooked by it. So, we did a couple days of cross-country skiing together that trip (I had never done cross-country before–I’d had downhill lessons since I was five). That is what true love looks like–cross-country skiing when you’ve been brought up to do downhill only.

 

[TruthSkr]

Ok, so here it is. I had the conversation with my wife. I told her I should have gone to Mass while we were in Florida, and before I could explain why, she let me have it. She said she is not afraid to be alone in a hotel room, but she objects to being left alone so I can follow a man made rule that no other Christian faith has. She didn’t go on the trip with me so I could leave her alone, even for an hour. She has a lot of anger with the Catholic Church and most of it has to do with the sex scandal. She also stopped practicing the Catholic faith because she feels it operates on guilt and fear instead of love. She feels Catholics go to Mass because they fear eternal damnation rather than because they love God. She says Protestant churches are overflowing and none of them mandate attendance at services. She also objected to how my insistence at going to Mass inconvenienced many of our friends. Last year we were on a vacation in the Outer Banks with 10 other people. During one of the evenings we were having dinner in the large house we rented I went to Mass by myself and it ran late. I ended up holding up dinner for the entire group because I had to go to Mass. Not even the most devout Christian couple, nor any of the Catholics in our group went to church that week. On another trip to the British Virgin Islands I went to Mass by myself. The Mass ran for two hours and everyone thought something happened to me. My wife was really upset and felt it was ridiculous that I had to go off on my own to do this, causing such a problem. Recently our Holy Father, Pope Francis stated that everyone has a chance at salvation, even the atheists. My wife says that if this is true than why would God allow non Catholics who do not worship every Sunday be saved, but Catholics who miss Mass could be denied salvation for the same thing. If we are all children of God why should the rules be different depending on what faith you happened to be born in?

 

[Allegra]

Ok, so here it is. I had the conversation with my wife. I told her I should have gone to Mass while we were in Florida, and before I could explain why, she let me have it. She said she is not afraid to be alone in a hotel room, but she objects to being left alone so I can follow a man made rule that no other Christian faith has. She didn’t go on the trip with me so I could leave her alone, even for an hour. She has a lot of anger with the Catholic Church and most of it has to do with the sex scandal. She also stopped practicing the Catholic faith because she feels it operates on guilt and fear instead of love. She feels Catholics go to Mass because they fear eternal damnation rather than because they love God. She says Protestant churches are overflowing and none of them mandate attendance at services. She also objected to how my insistence at going to Mass inconvenienced many of our friends. Last year we were on a vacation in the Outer Banks with 10 other people. During one of the evenings we were having dinner in the large house we rented I went to Mass by myself and it ran late. I ended up holding up dinner for the entire group because I had to go to Mass. Not even the most devout Christian couple, nor any of the Catholics in our group went to church that week. On another trip to the British Virgin Islands I went to Mass by myself. The Mass ran for two hours and everyone thought something happened to me. My wife was really upset and felt it was ridiculous that I had to go off on my own to do this, causing such a problem. Recently our Holy Father, Pope Francis stated that everyone has a chance at salvation, even the atheists. My wife says that if this is true than why would God allow non Catholics who do not worship every Sunday be saved, but Catholics who miss Mass could be denied salvation for the same thing. If we are all children of God why should the rules be different depending on what faith you happened to be born in?

Why is it so hard for your wife to believe that someone would actually want to go to Mass, and not be going out of fear? Your wife sounds completely unreasonable and you have my prayers.

 

[Xantippe]

Ok, so here it is. I had the conversation with my wife. I told her I should have gone to Mass while we were in Florida, and before I could explain why, she let me have it. She said she is not afraid to be alone in a hotel room, but she objects to being left alone so I can follow a man made rule that no other Christian faith has. She didn’t go on the trip with me so I could leave her alone, even for an hour. She has a lot of anger with the Catholic Church and most of it has to do with the sex scandal. She also stopped practicing the Catholic faith because she feels it operates on guilt and fear instead of love. She feels Catholics go to Mass because they fear eternal damnation rather than because they love God. She says Protestant churches are overflowing and none of them mandate attendance at services. She also objected to how my insistence at going to Mass inconvenienced many of our friends. Last year we were on a vacation in the Outer Banks with 10 other people. During one of the evenings we were having dinner in the large house we rented I went to Mass by myself and it ran late. I ended up holding up dinner for the entire group because I had to go to Mass. Not even the most devout Christian couple, nor any of the Catholics in our group went to church that week. On another trip to the British Virgin Islands I went to Mass by myself. The Mass ran for two hours and everyone thought something happened to me. My wife was really upset and felt it was ridiculous that I had to go off on my own to do this, causing such a problem. Recently our Holy Father, Pope Francis stated that everyone has a chance at salvation, even the atheists. My wife says that if this is true than why would God allow non Catholics who do not worship every Sunday be saved, but Catholics who miss Mass could be denied salvation for the same thing. If we are all children of God why should the rules be different depending on what faith you happened to be born in?

It sounds like your wife has a lot of issues, but one thing you could say is, “I wouldn’t stop you from going to church, honey” or “This sounds like something that we should talk to a marriage counselor about.”

In future, make sure that people know to start dinner without you.

 

[TruthSkr]

No need for marriage counseling. My wife’s solution is simple. If I continue to push the issue then forget vacations. She’d be content to stay home. Her travel anxiety makes vacations very stressful, and although she enjoys them when we get to the destination she stresses for weeks before we go. This is the time in life I looked forward to for so many years, to travel in retirement. And this is the biggest obstacle to enjoying my lifelong dream. There is no compromise here. I would have to threaten to leave her before she would even think about changing her mind and I do not want to go that route. There is enough stress in life. Personally, I think Pope Francis is the best thing to happen to the church at a time when Catholics are leaving the Church in droves. Finally, the Archbishop of Minneapolis, and Bishop Piche resigned because of Pope Francis’ pursuit of the issue. This was long overdue and is one more example of why my wife has such disdain for the Church. Last night she told me that when her brother, who passed away several years ago, was a young man a parish priest took him and some other boys on a trip to New York. Stories she heard afterward led her to suspect that there may have been some abuse on that trip, but she will never know for sure and is probably best off not knowing. But it, and many other events, have led to my wife’s opinion of the Church. Few people know the real damage caused by the sex scandal. We tend to ignore it and hope it will go away on its own. There is much work to be done and the Church needs to take a very aggressive policy toward the issue. Pope Francis has begun the work, but it will be many years before the healing is done.

 

[KnitNut]

On a related matter, when I travel alone, as I do whenever I go on ski trips with friends, as my wife does not ski, none of my friends go to church. In order for me to attend Mass it would sometimes be necessary for me to ask my friends to adjust their schedule to accommodate my needs. An example would be I might have to ask them to hold off on having dinner until later to wait for me to return from Mass. Or I might even have to ask them to drive me to Mass if we are sharing a rental car. I have never experienced anyone having to do these things to attend Mass and it does seem unreasonable to expect others to accommodate my needs while they are also on vacation. What do I do? Please do not suggest my wife attend counseling as we had that discussion many times and she refuses. I have also read about asking for a dispensation from the parish priest, however I come from a very large parish of several thousand parishioners, and don’t think the priests would appreciate hearing from me every time I take a trip.

a) Rent your own car.
b) Tell your friends you’ll catch up with them for drinks after dinner - honestly, I can’t imagine asking/expecting a group to delay dinner because you’re at church. Your obligation ought not become their sacrifice.
c) Quietly go about your business. Perhaps invite them along, but if/after they decline, continue your plans as unobtrusively as possible, in the manner least disruptive to the group.
d) Discuss this with your priest(s). Ask what you should do. Follow the(ir) directions.

 

[TruthSkr]

I would like to add that in the beginning of this conversation I was of the opinion that my wife was being ridiculous and unreasonable, however after hearing her vent last night, telling me stories about the parish priest who lived with a mistress, and the priest who stole from the church, the priest who flirted with her mother, the priest in our parish, when our sons were young, who had an affinity for young boys that caused her to pull our sons out of CCD and stop attending Mass, I began to understand why she has such a distorted view of the Church. Although she may have never been touched I believe that she is one of the many victims of the sins committed in the Church. And now I am feeling angry that I have to deal with all this because of their crimes.

 

[TruthSkr]

And one more thing…My wife admitted that she does have anxiety being left alone in a hotel room, and it would have been especially profound while in Florida because we were dealing with a very emotional death. The suggestion to have a friend stay with her is absurd. She would never consent to that. It would make her feel like a fool. The problem here is that there is no flexibility. I didn’t know why my wife was so upset about being left alone but I was expected to leave her and go to Mass.

 

[nodito]

The suggestion to have a friend stay with her is absurd. She would never consent to that.

You may not have liked the advice, but it wasn’t absurd. You have an obligation to get to Mass and she’s afraid of being alone. So either she comes with you or you find someone for her to be with while you’re gone. Seems reasonable to me…

 

[KnitNut]

a) Rent your own car.
b) Tell your friends you’ll catch up with them for drinks after dinner - honestly, I can’t imagine asking/expecting a group to delay dinner because you’re at church. Your obligation ought not become their sacrifice.
c) Quietly go about your business. Perhaps invite them along, but if/after they decline, continue your plans as unobtrusively as possible, in the manner least disruptive to the group.
d) Discuss this with your priest(s). Ask what you should do. Follow the(ir) directions.

Actually, I’m changing the order.
#1 - DISCUSS THIS WITH YOUR PRIEST. FOLLOW HIS DIRECTION.

You have been raising this question for five years now. At this point, I don’t see how an anonymous message board will help you.

Your wife doesn’t participate in Catholic stuff. The only appropriate answers here are love, and prayer. You won’t guilt her into it, you won’t argue her into it, and no matter how “ridiculous” any anonymous forum posters might describe it, none of it has impact on your perceived problem. Love her. Pray for her. Pray for yourself.

You have issues with church attendance while traveling, whether due to your wife’s mental health issues or your own logistics. Yes, I think you should be “bothering” your priest every single time you travel, at this point. If your needs are going to impact your travel companions significantly (you hold up a departing boat, the whole sailing party?), perhaps you need to find a different solution…like joining them later in the trip, at a port call, after you have attended services. Rent your own car, meet up with them after the day of skiing. There are solutions.

Reading the myriad posts…the underlying theme I’m getting is that it’s more about your own loneliness at having to go on your own. (Example - you seemed quite upset that the group prepared dinner in your absence…despite helping to clean up after, you seem stuck on missing the group activity of cooking…ONE meal.) This is a subject for a priest, and possibly a personal counselor. I think there may be more issues than simply missing a service, here. Yes, Rome has imposed the obligation of attendance upon you - but how Godly is it to pass the burden of your attendance onto others? Please, speak with your priest. Ask his direction, and follow it…

 

[Samwise1]

For me, both situations are of a different order.

Your wife’s anxiety about being alone and her resentment for the church put grave reasons for you to not be able to attend Mass. She can’t change the way she feels.
Do talk with a priest about this, he could be willing to give you dispensation for all future cases where in good conscience you can’t attend on the weekend.
On the Internet there are so many schedules with Mass times; you could try to find a creative solution in going to a city centre, having her shopping and you going to Mass simultaneously. Or something like that.

The trip with your friends: They seem indifferent to the Church and probably they are okay being left alone.
I select my trips-with-secular-friends according to my ability to go to Mass: If I can find a place and time to attend Mass before, after (or during) the trip, I will join; if the schedule of the trip doesn’t allow me to go; I won’t join my friends. That could mean driving myself and passing through a city on my way back, joining later, or going to Mass while the others are having fun. Or even suggesting they’d come with me. Some earlier poster said “don’t make your obligation their sacrifice” and that’s totally true.

By the way, I really like scheduling and planning, and checking all over Internet for options, so that would my advantage in both cases… I don’t know about you

 

[TruthSkr]

Sorry, Nodito, but I am absolutely certain she would never agree to either. If anything, a permanent dispensation due to illness may be in order.

 

[nodito]

Sorry, Nodito, but I am absolutely certain she would never agree to either. If anything, a permanent dispensation due to illness may be in order.

You can certainly ask your pastor about it. Care for an infant or sick child would abrogate the obligation. Do you believe her to be ill? Does she?

 

[ack]

No need for marriage counseling. My wife’s solution is simple. If I continue to push the issue then forget vacations. She’d be content to stay home. Her travel anxiety makes vacations very stressful

I have no doubt that the sex scandal has caused incalculable damage. However, despite her claims otherwise, I would still tend to believe that her travel anxiety is the real issue here.

As in, she only feels safe when traveling if she has 100% control over what’s happening to her, and to you, during every minute of the trip. And if she loses control over the itinerary of the trip, then she loses control over her own composure and emotions.

I think this problem is common in various forms. My grandmother is 95 and suffers incredible anxiety if all of her family members out of town, because she feels there will be nobody to rescue her in a crisis. This is despite the fact that she’s in a nursing home; practically, we can’t do anything to rescue her anyway. We’ve resorted to leaving town secretly.

It seems like your options are
(1) accommodating – not traveling over the weekends anymore, which seems sort of unhealthy to me
(2) forcing the issue by traveling and leaving her alone in the room – this doesn’t sound healthy either, sort of like a game of emotional “chicken”
(3) counseling and compromise – would she be open to this? It could help, but nobody can force her to change.

 

[ack]

By the way, I really like scheduling and planning, and checking all over Internet for options, so that would my advantage in both cases… I don’t know about you

That would have been my first instinct too, but my sense is that trying to “schedule” a solution here would backfire due to the control factor I speculated about in my previous post.

You can certainly ask your pastor about it. Care for an infant or sick child would abrogate the obligation. Do you believe her to be ill? Does she?

From what you have posted, this certainly sounds reasonable to me. If you decide to go with the “accommodation” route, this would be the best way to do it.

 

[Xantippe]

As in, she only feels safe when traveling if she has 100% control over what’s happening to her, and to you, during every minute of the trip. And if she loses control over the itinerary of the trip, then she loses control over her own composure and emotions.

I think this problem is common in various forms. My grandmother is 95 and suffers incredible anxiety if all of her family members out of town, because she feels there will be nobody to rescue her in a crisis. This is despite the fact that she’s in a nursing home; practically, we can’t do anything to rescue her anyway. We’ve resorted to leaving town secretly.

It seems like your options are
(1) accommodating – not traveling over the weekends anymore, which seems sort of unhealthy to me
(2) forcing the issue by traveling and leaving her alone in the room – this doesn’t sound healthy either, sort of like a game of emotional “chicken”
(3) counseling and compromise – would she be open to this? It could help, but nobody can force her to change.

I’m not sure that #1 is so unreasonable for a couple around retirement age. As they get older and have freer schedules, it’s going to be a more and more reasonable solution.

I agree about the prevalence of weird anxieties. We were once visiting my husband’s relatives in Eastern Europe. We were having a pleasant dinner with cousins. Grandma called and called and called and called throughout the dinner, because she was anxious that we be conveyed to Auntie K’s for the night, despite the fact that it was still early evening. But she could not rest as long as she knew that we were still out for the evening. Her daughter and the daughter’s family had previously left the country largely to avoid that stuff…

It’s bad enough when a parent or grandma does that sort of thing, but having a spouse that is so wracked with anxiety that they have to keep tabs on you at all times has got to be like being in jail.

And what happens when the OP dies? Actuarially speaking, you are very likely to predecease her and leave her alone for quite a number of years.

I think you should be making arrangements to ensure that your wife is able to improve her functioning. For one thing, with you gone, all of this pressure will start falling on your children, and it’s only going to get worse with age.

 

[TruthSkr]

I’m not sure that #1 is so unreasonable for a couple around retirement age. As they get older and have freer schedules, it’s going to be a more and more reasonable solution.

I agree about the prevalence of weird anxieties. We were once visiting my husband’s relatives in Eastern Europe. We were having a pleasant dinner with cousins. Grandma called and called and called and called throughout the dinner, because she was anxious that we be conveyed to Auntie K’s for the night, despite the fact that it was still early evening. But she could not rest as long as she knew that we were still out for the evening. Her daughter and the daughter’s family had previously left the country largely to avoid that stuff…

It’s bad enough when a parent or grandma does that sort of thing, but having a spouse that is so wracked with anxiety that they have to keep tabs on you at all times has got to be like being in jail.

And what happens when the OP dies? Actuarially speaking, you are very likely to predecease her and leave her alone for quite a number of years.

I think you should be making arrangements to ensure that your wife is able to improve her functioning. For one thing, with you gone, all of this pressure will start falling on your children, and it’s only going to get worse with age.

Actually, my wife’s mother did exactly that when her husband passed. She was a basket case living alone. She called on the phone constantly, demanding all kinds of things that were really not important. Her two daughters could never out of town at the same time. It wasn’t until we got her in assisted living where she had people all around her all day that she eased up with things. I do think that the control thing is a big part of it. My wife told me that the only trip we’ve been on over the past several years where she did not feel anxious was our trip to Italy last year for our 40th Anniversary because she picked and planned the trip. How ironic that this was the furthest she’d ever been from home, but felt the most relaxed, because she felt in control. I do plan to have her get more involved in the trip planning as this may help. I always did all the planning before because she was too anxious to cope with the planning details. She is involved in a lot of activities, especially with her quilt guild so she has lots of friends and a good support system aside from me.

 

[TruthSkr]

Actually, I’m changing the order.
#1 - DISCUSS THIS WITH YOUR PRIEST. FOLLOW HIS DIRECTION.

You have been raising this question for five years now. At this point, I don’t see how an anonymous message board will help you.

Your wife doesn’t participate in Catholic stuff. The only appropriate answers here are love, and prayer. You won’t guilt her into it, you won’t argue her into it, and no matter how “ridiculous” any anonymous forum posters might describe it, none of it has impact on your perceived problem. Love her. Pray for her. Pray for yourself.

You have issues with church attendance while traveling, whether due to your wife’s mental health issues or your own logistics. Yes, I think you should be “bothering” your priest every single time you travel, at this point. If your needs are going to impact your travel companions significantly (you hold up a departing boat, the whole sailing party?), perhaps you need to find a different solution…like joining them later in the trip, at a port call, after you have attended services. Rent your own car, meet up with them after the day of skiing. There are solutions.

Reading the myriad posts…the underlying theme I’m getting is that it’s more about your own loneliness at having to go on your own. (Example - you seemed quite upset that the group prepared dinner in your absence…despite helping to clean up after, you seem stuck on missing the group activity of cooking…ONE meal.) This is a subject for a priest, and possibly a personal counselor. I think there may be more issues than simply missing a service, here. Yes, Rome has imposed the obligation of attendance upon you - but how Godly is it to pass the burden of your attendance onto others? Please, speak with your priest. Ask his direction, and follow it…

Yes, it has been several years this this has been going on. The good thing is that through these discussions and talking with my wife I have come to realize that the real problem does appear to be anxiety disorder with my wife blaming the Church for what she is feeling. Now that I have a better understanding of what is likely happening, I plan to have my wife more involved in the trip planning process. As for myself, when traveling with friends and going to Mass alone, it is very hard to do that. You feel so alone and kind of like the oddball in the group when no one else does what you do. I have never known anyone else who had to do this and do it so often.

 

[ack]

As for myself, when traveling with friends and going to Mass alone, it is very hard to do that. You feel so alone and kind of like the oddball in the group when no one else does what you do. I have never known anyone else who had to do this and do it so often.

I have had to do this (with family, which makes it even more awkward). It sucks, but you’ll live. Unlike the situations where your wife is involved, I wouldn’t try to accommodate or seek any kind of dispensation here.