Sunday obligation at other parishes?

[TrueLight]

Well, honestly man, I don’t think they are, but that is not a Catholic position. I agree that you ought to have gone - I also think that it in no way nullified your spiritual progress up until now. I think it would be a real shame if you believed that.

With all the problems that seem to pop up on here with regard to scrupulosity, it seems clear to me that there is something about the way the CC commonly deals with this that doesn’t work all that well.

You sinned, you learned. Move on.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Here is a question… what is “reasonable distance” ? I know some Sundays I have woken up late, or not feeling well, or sick and don’t want to get others in my parish sick.

But if Sunday evening I am feeling much better, and there is a 5pm (or even 8pm) Mass that is 35 miles away or so - plus handling gas at $4 a gallon, is that reasonble distance?

What is in your means? If you are elderly and need a walker to move about, then you may not be expected to go beyond the parish closest to you. But if you’re physically fit and have a well paying job that $4/gallon gas won’t drive you to the poorhouse, then a 35 mile drive not too much. Especially if you don’t have to do it every week.

What if the only Mass is one of the “Teen” masses?

Its a valid Mass and you are obligated to go.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Absolutely you had an obligation to go to Mass. Your obligation is NOT to go to any one specific Parish, it is to attend a complete Mass, regardless of where it is located.

If only your own Parish counted, no Catholic could travel to a different state or country (or even very much in their own state).

 

[Binary]

Absolutely you had an obligation to go to Mass. Your obligation is NOT to go to any one specific Parish, it is to attend a complete Mass, regardless of where it is located.

If only your own Parish counted, no Catholic could travel to a different state or country (or even very much in their own state).

Well it’s not really “regardless,” is it? If the closest church was a 2 hour drive away, would you be reasonably expected to attend? How about 1 hour? 30 minutes? I’d really like to know the measurement in distance or in minutes where missing mass switches from “perfectly ok” to “mortal sin.” We could use this information to make a map for all of the churches in the country with circles drawn around them. If one were to miss mass while lodging inside one of the circles, one is in danger of eternal damnation. If you are just outside of the circle, however, there are no negative consequences for missing mass, aside from missing out on it’s obvious benefits.

That sounds like a useful tool, right? We could even have (name removed by moderator)uts from the user like age, health, budget, transportation, etc. that would influence the size of the circles. So who wants to help me with this project? I think I could handle the coding, but I could really use some help with the data.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well it’s not really “regardless,” is it? If the closest church was a 2 hour drive away, would you be reasonably expected to attend? How about 1 hour? 30 minutes? I’d really like to know the measurement in distance or in minutes where missing mass switches from “perfectly ok” to “mortal sin.” We could use this information to make a map for all of the churches in the country with circles drawn around them. If one were to miss mass while lodging inside one of the circles, one is in danger of eternal damnation. If you are just outside of the circle, however, there are no negative consequences for missing mass, aside from missing out on it’s obvious benefits.

That sounds like a useful tool, right? We could even have (name removed by moderator)uts from the user like age, health, budget, transportation, etc. that would influence the size of the circles. So who wants to help me with this project? I think I could handle the coding, but I could really use some help with the data.

There’s no specific amount of distance or time of travel. As long as you are reasonably able to make that trip, then you are expected to make that trip. Putting a specific amount of time or distance would be overly legalistic and would make people to scrupulous on the legality. Look at it this way, I drive an average 40 minutes one way to work everyday. So traveling one hour to church once a week is not a big deal.

In another thread I posted this question. If the grocery store where you frequent was closed for the day and you were out of groceries at home, how far would you travel to the next grocery store? Its a reasonable question because going to church is like getting groceries for our soul.

 

[TrueLight]

There’s no specific amount of distance or time of travel. As long as you are reasonably able to make that trip, then you are expected to make that trip. Putting a specific amount of time or distance would be overly legalistic and would make people to scrupulous on the legality. Look at it this way, I drive an average 40 minutes one way to work everyday. So traveling one hour to church once a week is not a big deal.

In another thread I posted this question. If the grocery store where you frequent was closed for the day and you were out of groceries at home, how far would you travel to the next grocery store? Its a reasonable question because going to church is like getting groceries for our soul.

I’d order takeout.

 

[Bluegoat]

Well it’s not really “regardless,” is it? If the closest church was a 2 hour drive away, would you be reasonably expected to attend? How about 1 hour? 30 minutes? I’d really like to know the measurement in distance or in minutes where missing mass switches from “perfectly ok” to “mortal sin.” We could use this information to make a map for all of the churches in the country with circles drawn around them. If one were to miss mass while lodging inside one of the circles, one is in danger of eternal damnation. If you are just outside of the circle, however, there are no negative consequences for missing mass, aside from missing out on it’s obvious benefits.

That sounds like a useful tool, right? We could even have (name removed by moderator)uts from the user like age, health, budget, transportation, etc. that would influence the size of the circles. So who wants to help me with this project? I think I could handle the coding, but I could really use some help with the data.

You are sounding very bitter, I know that is presumptuous of me to say, but there it is. It seems to me you are starting to see what the CC defines as mortal sin as a kind of arbitrary designation. While that seems a common complaint among Catholics, I don’t think that it is really how Catholics are supposed to understand and practice it - I do know some very pious and learned Catholics that would not agree with that approach, including priests.

When we think about sin we need, among other things, to look at the overall pattern of our life. In general, do you seem to be drawing nearer to God, improving at your spiritual and other disciplines? Are you having trouble in general? Are there patters - you get tired and things fall apart? How is your prayer life?

Our relationship to God is about acts as well as attitude, but it is not about a list of “Sin X so many times” defines your relationship with God. It is more like the imagery of Jacob’s ladder, where we go a little way forward now, and back the next day, but we want always, with God’s grace and the disciplines and sacraments of the Church, to trend upward. Sometimes something, or an accumulation of somethings, may block your path, or you may even start to head down in a more active way, and then you need to do something about that.

So in relation to this issue I would be asking myself - is this an act or part of a pattern that is putting a serious block between myself and God? Did I, fully consciously, say no to something essential about God? In not attending was I deliberately saying that I didn’t want to be part of the Christian community or partake of the Eucharist? Do I do this a lot? Was I unusually tired or run down?

Do you have a confessor you trust and see every time, and who knows you and the sins you tend to struggle with, and don’t struggle with? Having someone else who can look at you objectively can go a long way toward helping with issues you are unsure about.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

This is great advice Bluegoat. We should look at the trend in our lives. Was this a once and infrequent occurance? Or do I only make it to Mass 2x a month and feel great if I make 3? Am I fully able to get up on time for an early tee-time, but always hit the snooze on Sundays? In other words, is it my intention and habit to get to Mass each week and this one time I blew it? Or do I frequently end up with excuses as to why I couldn’t get there?

This is applicable to any and all sins in our lives. Our goal should always be to trend upward!

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Well it’s not really “regardless,” is it? If the closest church was a 2 hour drive away, would you be reasonably expected to attend? How about 1 hour? 30 minutes? I’d really like to know the measurement in distance or in minutes where missing mass switches from “perfectly ok” to “mortal sin.” We could use this information to make a map for all of the churches in the country with circles drawn around them. If one were to miss mass while lodging inside one of the circles, one is in danger of eternal damnation. If you are just outside of the circle, however, there are no negative consequences for missing mass, aside from missing out on it’s obvious benefits.

That sounds like a useful tool, right? We could even have (name removed by moderator)uts from the user like age, health, budget, transportation, etc. that would influence the size of the circles. So who wants to help me with this project? I think I could handle the coding, but I could really use some help with the data.

Ah, so do you ask your family/friends exactly how much time they feel you should spend with them and exactly how often they think it should be done?

Our relationship with God is just that: a relationship. There’s all sorts of unquantifiable elements that go into a relationship. Life is not a spreadsheet that we can enter data into and come to a definitive answer for each and every question. Imagine saying to the person you’re dating, “There’s a lot of other things I’d like to do with my time so just tell me how much time I’m required to spend with you to keep you happy.”

Couples in long distance relationships might only physically see each other once a month. But that would be a horrible relationship if they both lived in the same town. Different circumstances allow for different “requirements.”

The Church gives us useful guidelines on how to keep a strong relationship to God and sometimes we need to apply some common sense and love to figure out the answer to our particular situation. Only you can answer whether, given your circumstances, it would have been reasonable to attend the latter Mass. However, if you ask other people for their opinion don’t be upset when they give it to you…

 

[TrueLight]

Do you fulfill your Sunday obligation if you attend a service at an Orthodox church?

Sorry, this was the most relevant thread I could find to post this.

 

[Binary]

Ah, so do you ask your family/friends exactly how much time they feel you should spend with them and exactly how often they think it should be done?

Our relationship with God is just that: a relationship. There’s all sorts of unquantifiable elements that go into a relationship. Life is not a spreadsheet that we can enter data into and come to a definitive answer for each and every question. Imagine saying to the person you’re dating, “There’s a lot of other things I’d like to do with my time so just tell me how much time I’m required to spend with you to keep you happy.”

Couples in long distance relationships might only physically see each other once a month. But that would be a horrible relationship if they both lived in the same town. Different circumstances allow for different “requirements.”

The Church gives us useful guidelines on how to keep a strong relationship to God and sometimes we need to apply some common sense and love to figure out the answer to our particular situation. Only you can answer whether, given your circumstances, it would have been reasonable to attend the latter Mass. However, if you ask other people for their opinion don’t be upset when they give it to you…

I don’t alternate between being on a path of perfect union with my friends and being eternally separated from them every time I cancel on them for dinner/call to apologize. Given the stakes, as well as my own bias which may cloud my judgment, I hope you can understand why I’m reluctant to say “eh, I’m probably fine. After all, I’m a reasonable guy.”

My understanding of the rest of Catholic teaching completely agrees with your statement that we have a relationship with God rather than an on/off switch. That’s why I think the standard of what a “reasonable” person would do is at best useless and at worst a complete misnomer. If it were a matter of reason, we’d be able to arrive at an unassailable conclusion through our natural faculties alone.

My church attendance is less than stellar, so while I have an active prayer life, my understanding is that most of my life is spent in a state of mortal sin. Let me be clear: I’m not saying any piece of Catholic doctrine is wrong. I just don’t understand it, and I find that very frustrating. I’d like to think that my ignorance is pitiable enough to mitigate my culpability, but that’s a hell (literally) of a gamble.

 

[Binary]

You are sounding very bitter, I know that is presumptuous of me to say, but there it is. It seems to me you are starting to see what the CC defines as mortal sin as a kind of arbitrary designation. While that seems a common complaint among Catholics, I don’t think that it is really how Catholics are supposed to understand and practice it - I do know some very pious and learned Catholics that would not agree with that approach, including priests.

When we think about sin we need, among other things, to look at the overall pattern of our life. In general, do you seem to be drawing nearer to God, improving at your spiritual and other disciplines? Are you having trouble in general? Are there patters - you get tired and things fall apart? How is your prayer life?

Our relationship to God is about acts as well as attitude, but it is not about a list of “Sin X so many times” defines your relationship with God. It is more like the imagery of Jacob’s ladder, where we go a little way forward now, and back the next day, but we want always, with God’s grace and the disciplines and sacraments of the Church, to trend upward. Sometimes something, or an accumulation of somethings, may block your path, or you may even start to head down in a more active way, and then you need to do something about that.

So in relation to this issue I would be asking myself - is this an act or part of a pattern that is putting a serious block between myself and God? Did I, fully consciously, say no to something essential about God? In not attending was I deliberately saying that I didn’t want to be part of the Christian community or partake of the Eucharist? Do I do this a lot? Was I unusually tired or run down?

Do you have a confessor you trust and see every time, and who knows you and the sins you tend to struggle with, and don’t struggle with? Having someone else who can look at you objectively can go a long way toward helping with issues you are unsure about.

These are all excellent questions and they highlight what I hope is the heart of the matter, rather than my legalistic focus. And yes, I am bitter, though in the course of writing this post I realize I have no right to be.

At this point I think I’m just lashing out, so I’m going to reflect on what’s been said and try to refrain from saying anything else out of anger.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Do you fulfill your Sunday obligation if you attend a service at an Orthodox church?

Sorry, this was the most relevant thread I could find to post this.

No. Canon Law is precise that says you fulfill your obligation at any “Mass” of a Catholic Rite. So only Eucharistic Liturgies of Churches in communion with Rome.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t alternate between being on a path of perfect union with my friends and being eternally separated from them every time I cancel on them for dinner/call to apologize. Given the stakes, as well as my own bias which may cloud my judgment, I hope you can understand why I’m reluctant to say “eh, I’m probably fine. After all, I’m a reasonable guy.”

My understanding of the rest of Catholic teaching completely agrees with your statement that we have a relationship with God rather than an on/off switch. That’s why I think the standard of what a “reasonable” person would do is at best useless and at worst a complete misnomer. If it were a matter of reason, we’d be able to arrive at an unassailable conclusion through our natural faculties alone.

My church attendance is less than stellar, so while I have an active prayer life, my understanding is that most of my life is spent in a state of mortal sin. Let me be clear: I’m not saying any piece of Catholic doctrine is wrong. I just don’t understand it, and I find that very frustrating. I’d like to think that my ignorance is pitiable enough to mitigate my culpability, but that’s a hell (literally) of a gamble.

Going to church is like having a meal. If you don’t eat, you get sick physically and you die. If you don’t go to church you don’t get nourished spiritually and your soul will die (ie, separated from God if you physically die in a state of sin). Calling going to church a weekly obligation does demean it a bit. We don’t think we are obligated by law to eat. We eat because we need it. We go to church because we need it spiritually. Looking down on yourself and say “I’m a bad person” doesn’t change anything. You have to stop thinking that. A sick person in the hospital needs to eat as much as a healthy athlete at his prime. Don’t think because you think you are spiritually lacking or a sinner means you don’t need to go to church as much. I have a news flash for you, we all are sinners. And if we don’t go to church then we won’t be able to better ourselves and break free from the bondage of sin. God feeds our souls with grace, which we need to become better. The best place to get that is to go to church at least once a week on Sundays.

 

[TrueLight]

No. Canon Law is precise that says you fulfill your obligation at any “Mass” of a Catholic Rite. So only Eucharistic Liturgies of Churches in communion with Rome.

Thanks.

 

[TrueLight]

Going to church is like having a meal. If you don’t eat, you get sick physically and you die. If you don’t go to church you don’t get nourished spiritually and your soul will die (ie, separated from God if you physically die in a state of sin). Calling going to church a weekly obligation does demean it a bit. We don’t think we are obligated by law to eat. We eat because we need it. We go to church because we need it spiritually. Looking down on yourself and say “I’m a bad person” doesn’t change anything. You have to stop thinking that. A sick person in the hospital needs to eat as much as a healthy athlete at his prime. Don’t think because you think you are spiritually lacking or a sinner means you don’t need to go to church as much. I have a news flash for you, we all are sinners. And if we don’t go to church then we won’t be able to better ourselves and break free from the bondage of sin. God feeds our souls with grace, which we need to become better. The best place to get that is to go to church at least once a week on Sundays.

You explained this beautifully. And I think that is the reason the church makes going to mass an “obligation”, although the word makes it seem like something unpleasant.

I do my best to go to church/mass. As someone learning about Catholicism, barring illness or some emergency, I am going to mass.

However, if I do miss mass cause I wake up tired, I’m not going to beat myself over it. Nor will I believe I’m going to hell if I did suddenly. God searches the heart and he knows my intentions.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I don’t alternate between being on a path of perfect union with my friends and being eternally separated from them every time I cancel on them for dinner/call to apologize.

Nor do we with God. Our relationship to God, like most relationships, is not a simple on/off light switch but more of a dimmer switch with various levels of light but with the possibility of complete darkness.
Usually our actions are a mirror of the strength of our relationship and not the cause. Its perhaps not the missing of Mass that hurt our relationship but rather the missing of Mass reveals that we’ve already strayed from our relationship with God.

Given the stakes, as well as my own bias which may cloud my judgment, I hope you can understand why I’m reluctant to say “eh, I’m probably fine. After all, I’m a reasonable guy.”

Unfortunately in life it falls upon our own shoulders to make those judgments, its called personal responsbility and nothing can relieve us of it. Sometimes we make wrong decisions and that’s what repentance is for…

My understanding of the rest of Catholic teaching completely agrees with your statement that we have a relationship with God rather than an on/off switch. That’s why I think the standard of what a “reasonable” person would do is at best useless and at worst a complete misnomer. If it were a matter of reason, we’d be able to arrive at an unassailable conclusion through our natural faculties alone.

If all of life were really that simple as applying “natural faculties alone.” Life is full of unquantifable qualities and mysteries.

My church attendance is less than stellar, so while I have an active prayer life, my understanding is that most of my life is spent in a state of mortal sin. Let me be clear: I’m not saying any piece of Catholic doctrine is wrong. I just don’t understand it, and I find that very frustrating. I’d like to think that my ignorance is pitiable enough to mitigate my culpability, but that’s a hell (literally) of a gamble.

We can only do our best, after that we have to leave it in God’s loving and merciful hands.

 

[Bluegoat]

Going to church is like having a meal. If you don’t eat, you get sick physically and you die. If you don’t go to church you don’t get nourished spiritually and your soul will die (ie, separated from God if you physically die in a state of sin). Calling going to church a weekly obligation does demean it a bit. We don’t think we are obligated by law to eat. We eat because we need it. We go to church because we need it spiritually. Looking down on yourself and say “I’m a bad person” doesn’t change anything. You have to stop thinking that. A sick person in the hospital needs to eat as much as a healthy athlete at his prime. Don’t think because you think you are spiritually lacking or a sinner means you don’t need to go to church as much. I have a news flash for you, we all are sinners. And if we don’t go to church then we won’t be able to better ourselves and break free from the bondage of sin. God feeds our souls with grace, which we need to become better. The best place to get that is to go to church at least once a week on Sundays.

I agree in general, but honestly it seems to me that there is some weird ways that this is expressed. I mean, why is Sunday Mass so much more significant that missing it is a grave sin? If I go to Mass several times a week and miss on Sunday because the bad music makes me feel angry (I was once in a parish where I felt this way, so that is why I use that example) does that mean my relationship with God is messed up? Even if I participate with the Christian community in other ways?

I know of four groups that use Confession: Anglicans like myself, Lutherans, Catholics, and the Orthodox. Now, Anglicans and Lutherans are often lax about it which is an issue. Catholics and the Orthodox take it seriously. Only the Catholics use this mortal sin/laundry list kind of method, and the emphasis on reconciling with penance. They also seem to be the only ones that have this problem with people getting bitter and confused this way, or suffering from scrupulosity. I personally think there is a connection.

Anyway, that is probably not helpful to the OP, but it is something I’ve been thinking about lately.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I agree in general, but honestly it seems to me that there is some weird ways that this is expressed. I mean, why is Sunday Mass so much more significant that missing it is a grave sin? If I go to Mass several times a week and miss on Sunday because the bad music makes me feel angry (I was once in a parish where I felt this way, so that is why I use that example) does that mean my relationship with God is messed up? Even if I participate with the Christian community in other ways?

I know of four groups that use Confession: Anglicans like myself, Lutherans, Catholics, and the Orthodox. Now, Anglicans and Lutherans are often lax about it which is an issue. Catholics and the Orthodox take it seriously. Only the Catholics use this mortal sin/laundry list kind of method, and the emphasis on reconciling with penance. They also seem to be the only ones that have this problem with people getting bitter and confused this way, or suffering from scrupulosity. I personally think there is a connection.

Anyway, that is probably not helpful to the OP, but it is something I’ve been thinking about lately.

Actually, if you miss 3 Sunday Liturgies in a row without good reason, you will be excommunicated from the Orthodox Church.

Sunday is important because its the day of Resurrection. That is what we are trying to achieve when going to church. The tradition reinforces the fact about the Resurrection because its done on the same day as the Resurrection. Its like saying, why do Americans celebrate July 4 when they can celebrate their independence on, say, November 30 or any other time of the year? Every Sunday is Easter in its own little way.

 

[Bluegoat]

Actually, if you miss 3 Sunday Liturgies in a row without good reason, you will be excommunicated from the Orthodox Church.

Sunday is important because its the day of Resurrection. That is what we are trying to achieve when going to church. The tradition reinforces the fact about the Resurrection because its done on the same day as the Resurrection. Its like saying, why do Americans celebrate July 4 when they can celebrate their independence on, say, November 30 or any other time of the year? Every Sunday is Easter in its own little way.

I don’t think this really addresses what I was getting at. Also, the Orthodox never have to sing “Gather Us In”.

Seriously though, that was mostly an example, perhaps not the best one.