Sunday Obligation Question

[Mrs_Sally]

He says the words of Consecration correctly (except he leaves out the word “may” on the consecration of the wine), so I don’t actually doubt the validity of the Mass. But the rest of the Eucharistic Prayer he changes according to his personal preference. He may add phrases that aren’t a part of the prayer, or take phrases out, etc.

But my question is, are we obligated to attend a Mass that is irreverent, full of illicit actions, and where unorthodox teachings are taught, even if it is the only Mass in our town? Also, if we are, then what about the influence that this may have on our children? Are we obligated to make them attend a Mass that may be harmful to their faith?

I do understand your concerns, but I am wondering how you intend to raise your children as Catholics if they never attend an actual Mass? Where and how will the receive the sacraments? Especially first and subsequent communions? Unless you are planning to move away from this town, you will need to address these issues. It is my experience that once a priest becomes a pastor of a church the bishop usually leaves him in that assignment for 10+ years. That’s a long, long time to go without Mass!!!

I think you need to speak to your bishop. I very much doubt that the issues you describe will negate your obligation to attend Mass each week.

 

[Spirithound]

But my question is, are we obligated to attend a Mass that is irreverent, full of illicit actions, and where unorthodox teachings are taught, even if it is the only Mass in our town? Also, if we are, then what about the influence that this may have on our children? Are we obligated to make them attend a Mass that may be harmful to their faith?

I think that if notorious liturgical abuse by the priest was a valid reason to not attend Mass, then canon law would say something about that.

Regarding your children, this could be a teachable moment. You can explain the faith to them when Father says something heretical, and tell them that priests sin too.

 

[ServantofMary]

Another issue is the issue of sacrilege. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines sacrilege as:

Sacrilege consists in profaning or treating unworthily the sacraments and other liturgical actions, as well as persons, things, or places consecrated to God. Sacrilege is a grave sin especially when committed against the Eucharist, for in this sacrament the true Body of Christ is made substantially present for us. (para. 2120)

This is what is happening at this Mass. Am I obligated to expose myself and my family to sacrilege? Am I obligated to expose myself and my family to the Body and Blood of Christ being treated unworthily and without respect and reverence? Even if I teach my children how Mass is suppose to be, children are still very impressionable with what they see and hear from others around them.

 

[malphono]

Another issue is the issue of sacrilege. …

This is what is happening at this Mass. Am I obligated to expose myself and my family to sacrilege? Am I obligated to expose myself and my family to the Body and Blood of Christ being treated unworthily and without respect and reverence? Even if I teach my children how Mass is suppose to be, children are still very impressionable with what they see and hear from others around them.

Of course I don’t have any first-hand knowledge of the goings-on, but I would hope that the word “sacrilege” is a bit strong. Perhaps it’s “just” lack of reverence and/or orthodoxy (either of which is bad enough on its own). In any case, NeelyAnn gave some excellent advice:

…regardless of your decision, you should speak to the priest. Make sure to bring information to support that what he is doing is wrong. If he does not respond, or responds negatively, consult your bishop in writing with evidence (such as pictures, or statements from others who witnessed the abuses) and proof that these things are wrong. Maintain all of your correspondence. If you receive no results, forward a copy of everything to Rome.

Whatever you decide, since this is evidently something of deep concern to you, I’d suggest you go elsewhere. Hopefully there is another church within reasonable distance that you you can attend.

 

[ServantofMary]

I have expressed my concerns to the priest. He thanked me for sharing my feelings and for being honest to him about them, and that was it.

 

[Harrison]

ServantofMary -

The answers you get on here are going to be from one end of the spectrum to the other. Most who consider themselves “Traditional” Catholics will normally advise not to go (for all the reasons you mentioned you are concerned about, plus others). Those that fall in the conservative, but not necessarily traditonal camp, are going to say go.

Personally, I would say don’t go. We have been in this position before with an alternating priest who gave heretical sermons. When he would give the sermons, we would have to pull our daughter out of Mass during the sermons. We made a point to not attend Mass at this parish when we knew it was his week to give the sermons, but occassionally he would be there unexpectedly. It became easier not to attend Mass there at all. However, we did not stay home from Mass altogether. We did find another place to attend.

I am not sure where you are located, but surely there must be another place to attend Mass, even if you have to drive a little. Have you checked to see what options you have 30-60 minutes from your home? Perhaps there is a Latin Mass nearer than you think.

Try these 2 links:

web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm

traditio.com/tradlib/masslat.pdf

The abuses and the general atmosphere of the parish you attend are very important issues. Not only can your faith be weakend by attending there, but that of your children can also be. Some may say that it is the Eucharist you are receiving so it does not matter, but it does. So what if you receive the Eucharist but have lost the faith. How will that help you? Many people receive on Sunday who do not have the faith. That is not profitable to them, it is actually harmful if they are receiving unworthily.

The next thing to consider is the possibility that the Consecration may not be vaild. If the priest is changing the words of the prayers, etc. during Mass, he may also be changing the words of the Consecration. You need to pay attention to know if he is doing this.

You also need to find out if he is using valid matter for the bread and wine. With all of the other abuses, and the relaxed/irreverent atmostphere your described, this may be a possibility. It would not be the first time. Fr. Z recently received an email from someone asking him what to do about a priest using grape juice for the wine. The grape juice is not valid matter and even with the correct words of Consecration does not become the Blood of Christ. Some years ago I remember hearing that it was found that the entire diocese of Cincinnatti had used invalid matter for the hosts for many years. Meaning, the Eucharist was not vaildly consecrated for all of those years. I am not saying this is the case at your parish, however I would look into to it because of all of the toehr abuses you have already mentioned.

Anyway, point is - it is not always a given in that you are receiving the Eucharist. It can be possible that you are not.

I would advise everyone to stay away from the second link posted which is to traditio.com. Page 34 of the document at that link says that the Novus Ordo is invalid. Furthermore it says to stay away from diocesan churches and instead go to independent, sedevacantist or SSPV churches.

 

[baltobetsy]

But as I mentioned in my original post, according to the Saint Joseph Foundation, when Canon Law speaks of the obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and other days of obligation, it assumes that the Mass is licit. I was wondering about the obligation to attend an illicit Mass.

I think that would refer to Masses that are celebrated with Church approval, rather than Masses that might incorporate some illicit or unapproved practices. A licit Mass would be celebrated by a regular diocesan parish, by the FSSP, by an approved religious order. An illicit Mass would be celebrated by a priest who does not have approval to do so: a rent-a-priest on a cruise ship or at a wedding, an excommunicated priest who forms his own congregation to perpetuate his errors, and I’m not gonna touch the SSPX with a ten foot pole.

Any Mass that is offered at your diocesan parish, no matter how off-putting it is, will be licit. It may be marred by word changes, inappropriate music, additions of elements or omissions of things like the Creed, and even outright doctrinal errors in the homily, but it is still valid and licit. It could be invalidated by significant changes in the wording of the Consecration or by the intention of the celebrating priest, but that is quite rare.

There’s a parallel in the distinction between mortal and venial sin. A thousand venial sins do not add up to a mortal sin. A large number of illicit practices within a Mass do not make it invalid or illicit to attend.

If you have no other choices about where to attend Mass, I caution you strongly against keeping yourself and your family away from the Church and the sacraments because things are not done correctly at your parish. It’s very dangerous to set yourself up as a judge of what’s right and wrong in this instance. That’s the Bishop’s job, not a layperson’s. If you have a number of serious concerns, by all means make them known (politely and dispassionately) to the Bishop.

Betsy

 

[malphono]

I think that would refer to Masses that are celebrated with Church approval, rather than Masses that might incorporate some illicit or unapproved practices. A licit Mass would be celebrated by a regular diocesan parish, …

Any Mass that is offered at your diocesan parish, no matter how off-putting it is, will be licit.

That is not necessarily true.

 

[ProVobis]

But as I mentioned in my original post, according to the Saint Joseph Foundation, when Canon Law speaks of the obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and other days of obligation, it assumes that the Mass is licit. I was wondering about the obligation to attend an illicit Mass.

Our obligation is only to attend a valid Mass. The priest may be the biggest sex abuser or under infinite suspension but his Masses are still valid, given correct form, matter, and intention. Many times we don’t know if a Mass is illicit or not, but in any case, our attendance at a valid Mass in no way condones the licitnes or illicitness of the Mass.

That said, we also need to exercise some discretion when attending known illicit Masses. Too much support will no doubt only encourage more illicitness.

 

[ServantofMary]

I think that would refer to Masses that are celebrated with Church approval, rather than Masses that might incorporate some illicit or unapproved practices.

Actually, I shared with the Saint Joseph Foundation the whole situation, and it was in that context that they responded.

 

[baltobetsy]

Actually, I shared with the Saint Joseph Foundation the whole situation, and it was in that context that they responded.

It sounds like a standard response.

But you really want to be told you are right to stay away from Mass because it doesn’t measure up to your expectations. I hope that somewhere, deep in your conscience, you know that’s wrong. The burden of responsibility for the illicit elements in those Masses is on the priest, not you. The Mass, even in your parish, remains the source and summit of our life in Christ. Please do not deprive your family of this source of infinite grace.

Betsy

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[NeelyAnn]

Actually, I shared with the Saint Joseph Foundation the whole situation, and it was in that context that they responded.

Servant of Mary -

Email your question to Father Z. Explain your situation in detail. He usually gives fair advice. As I said before, your answers on this forum will vary depending on who does the answering.

 

[FAB]

One of the main things for me is that he is very much into false ecumenism. He mentions that it doesn’t matter what denomination or religion that one goes to. As long as they are good people they will go to heaven. Our deacon has even said that he believes that his grandfather is in heaven, even though he wasn’t even a Christian and never stepped inside of a church building, simply because he was a good person.

Certainly part of this is a pastoral comments with so many who have relatives and children who are not Catholic.
As far as being false ecumensim, it’s not, the Church in Lumen Gentium recongises salvation outside of the faith is possible through other denominations, even those who are not Christian.

Peace,
FAB

 

[NeelyAnn]

It sounds like a standard response.

But you really want to be told you are right to stay away from Mass because it doesn’t measure up to your expectations. I hope that somewhere, deep in your conscience, you know that’s wrong. The burden of responsibility for the illicit elements in those Masses is on the priest, not you. The Mass, even in your parish, remains the source and summit of our life in Christ. Please do not deprive your family of this source of infinite grace.

Betsy

Betsy, what you fail to see is that this is not about personal preference or personal expectations. The Mass is not about US but GOD. When we offer God an ad-libbed, irreverent, sacrilegious Mass, do you really think he finds that pleasing? Even if the Consecration is valid, it can still be wrong to participate in the Mass if it is indeed sacrilegious. The Consecration in a Black Mass can be valid, but it would be wrong to take part in a Black Mass. Yes, this is an extreme example, but it gets the point across. We should never participate in something that offends God.

From St. Thomas (S.T. II-II.85.2. ad 2):

I answer that, As stated above (A[1]), a sacrifice is offered in order that something may be represented. Now the sacrifice that is offered outwardly represents the inward spiritual sacrifice, whereby the soul offers itself to God according to Ps. 50:19, “A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit,” since, as stated above (Q[81], A[7]; Q[84], A[2]), the outward acts of religion are directed to the inward acts. Again the soul offers itself in sacrifice to God as its beginning by creation, and its end by beatification: and according to the true faith God alone is the creator of our souls, as stated in the FP, Q[90], A[3]; FS, Q[118], A[2], while in Him alone the beatitude of our soul consists, as stated above (FS, Q[1], A[8]; FS, Q[2], A[8]; FS, Q[3], AA[1],7,8). Wherefore just as to God alone ought we to offer spiritual sacrifice, so too ought we to offer outward sacrifices to Him alone: even so “in our prayers and praises we proffer significant words to Him to Whom in our hearts we offer the things which we designate thereby,” as Augustine states (De Civ. Dei x, 19). Moreover we find that in every country the people are wont to show the sovereign ruler some special sign of honor, and that if this be shown to anyone else, it is a crime of high-treason. Therefore, in the Divine law, the death punishment is assigned to those who offer Divine honor to another than God.

…

Reply to Objection 2: The offering of a sacrifice is measured not by the value of the animal killed, but by its signification, for it is done in honor of the sovereign Ruler of the whole universe. Wherefore, as Augustine says (De Civ. Dei x, 19), “the demons rejoice, not in the stench of corpses, but in receiving divine honors.”

Also from St. Thomas (S.T. II-II.99.3):

On the contrary, Acts and habits are distinguished by their objects. Now the sacred thing is the object of sacrilege, as stated above (A[1]). Therefore the species of sacrilege are distinguished according to the sacred things.

I answer that, As stated above (A[1]),** the sin of sacrilege consists in the irreverent treatment of a sacred thing.** Now reverence is due to a sacred thing by reason of its holiness: and consequently the species of sacrilege must needs be distinguished according to the different aspects of sanctity in the sacred things which are treated irreverently: for the greater the holiness ascribed to the sacred thing that is sinned against, the more grievous the sacrilege.

Now holiness is ascribed, not only to sacred persons, namely, those who are consecrated to the divine worship, but also to sacred places and to certain other sacred things. And the holiness of a place is directed to the holiness of man, who worships God in a holy place. For it is written (2 Macc. 5:19): “God did not choose the people for the place’s sake, but the place for the people’s sake.” Hence sacrilege committed against a sacred person is a graver sin than that which is committed against a sacred place. Yet in either species there are various degrees of sacrilege, according to differences of sacred persons and places.

In like manner the third species of sacrilege, which is committed against other sacred things, has various degrees, according to the differences of sacred things. Among these the highest place belongs to the sacraments whereby man is sanctified: chief of which is the sacrament of the Eucharist, for it contains Christ Himself. Wherefore the sacrilege that is committed against this sacrament is the gravest of all. The second place, after the sacraments, belongs to the vessels consecrated for the administration of the sacraments; also sacred images, and the relics of the saints, wherein the very persons of the saints, so to speak, are reverenced and honored. After these come things connected with the apparel of the Church and its ministers; and those things, whether movable or immovable, that are deputed to the upkeep of the ministers. And whoever sins against any one of the aforesaid incurs the crime of sacrilege

.

 

[baltobetsy]

I stand by everything I said. It is not for us to decide what liturgy is pleasing to God and what is not and to deprive ourselves and our families of the ultimate source of grace based on that determination.

It’s ridiculous to compare a poorly-celebrated Mass to a demonic black Mass.

Which heart do you think the Lord finds comfort in, the one that hardens and refuses to attend a poorly celebrated Mass or the one that goes humbly to that Mass and becomes a point of love in the midst of the errors?

 

[ServantofMary]

But you really want to be told you are right to stay away from Mass because it doesn’t measure up to your expectations.

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with “my expectations.” It has everything to do with the expectations that the Church has of Her priests. The Church expects its priests to follow the prescribed liturgy according to the rubics. The Church expects its priests to have reverence in regards to the Body and Blood of Christ. The Church expects its priests to teach the Catholic Faith faithfully and accurately.

 

[ServantofMary]

Which heart do you think the Lord finds comfort in, the one that hardens and refuses to attend a poorly celebrated Mass or the one that goes humbly to that Mass and becomes a point of love in the midst of the errors?

I’m not simply talking about a “poorly celebrated Mass.” I’m talking about a Mass where the priest deliberately changes prayers, and adds and takes things out of the liturgy that the Church itself has prescribed.

 

[ServantofMary]

As far as being false ecumensim, it’s not, the Church in Lumen Gentium recongises salvation outside of the faith is possible through other denominations, even those who are not Christian.

Salvation outside of the Church is another topic. But all I’ll say is that what this priest teaches is contrary to what the Church teaches (see my signature line below).

 

[ProVobis]

Which heart do you think the Lord finds comfort in, the one that hardens and refuses to attend a poorly celebrated Mass or the one that goes humbly to that Mass and becomes a point of love in the midst of the errors?

What are you trying to say here? That God intends to punish us with having to attend His Mass done in poor taste, so there!!! ?

I’m sorry but I would like to think we should enjoy worshipping God and seek those parishes which give him His rightful respect.

 

[PJM]

=ServantofMary;6206698]I have a question that I would like your thoughts on. I live in a town that only has one Catholic parish (not TLM). The priest of the parish is very liberal. He changes the liturgy by adding things that aren’t suppose to be there, taking things out that are suppose to be there, and changing the words of the prayers (even the Eucharistic Prayers). Masses there are very casual and irreverent. He even many times teaches things during his homily that are contrary to the Catholic Faith. I have no doubt that the Masses are valid, but they are clearly illicit from all of the abuses.

My wife and I also have four children (ages 9, 5, 2, and 5 months), and we don’t want them to be exposed to these things. We don’t want them to grow up thinking that this is how Mass is suppose to be celebrated, and we don’t want them to be exposed and influenced to some of the wrong things that this priest says and teaches. We’re afraid that it will harm their faith.

Now, my question is am I obligated to attend an illicit Mass such as this to fulfill my Sunday obligation? I wrote to the Saint Joseph Foundation (who are Canon Law experts) about this situation, and they responded that Canon Law does not address this issue, since it assumes that every Mass that is celebrated within the Church is licit.

So since Canon Law doesn’t address this issue, what are your thoughts on this?

*** My dear friend in Christ,

The short answer is yes you and your family must fulfill your Sunday and Holiday obligation.

Having shared that you may certainly seek out another parish, even if it means a bit of a drive. You could under the circumstances even attend one of the Orthodox Churches. [Actually this is always an option.]

The other option puts more pressure on you and the Mrs., BUT you could after each Mass sit the kids down and share with them what the truth is, while it is fresh in there minds.

This is a wonderful opportunity to teach the faith and to bond as a family.

Because of the way kids talk, GREAT care needs to be taken to not “ruin” the reputation of your priest. Father might of explained it better /differently. I’m not sure at he age of your children that you ought to get into actual specific abuses, except to your Bishop.

I would definitely express your concerns, much as you did in your post to your Bishop [who may or may not choose to do something about it? There are still a GREAT many Liberal Bishops in positions of authority. In your letter, be kind, be specific [give an example or two] and be brief [not more than a page is ideal.] Keep a copy of your letter and if no response within 30 day’s, PM me [PJM] and I’ll get you the contact information for the “Nuncio.”

If you know other parishioners with similar concerns, you might ask them for permission to include there names and contact information, which by the way needs to be clearly shown in your Bishops communication, even if it adds a page. Be sure they are in agreement with what you write.

Keep in mind that God has placed you [and your priest] where you are for His Purpose. And while we may not like it, God has a plan. Pray daily for your priest and Bishop.

Sadly this story is not isolated. Indeed it if oft repeated in other places and parishes.

Again, I stress that yes, you and your family must fulfill your Sunday and Holyday Obligations. The Mass remains valid, even if not “licit." Father is using wine and unleavened bread I pray? If not then the Mss is also invalid. And your Bishop MUST is advised.

IF, if, there are no other options* [even at an inconvenience to you and your family] God will credit you with fulfilling your obligation. If you have other options take them and still write to your Bishop. **

God Bless you good and faithful servant.

Love and prayers,

Pat