Sunday Worship as an Apologetic Argument

[Messenger]

hi,

Ok, in reviewing the previous posts I believe, at my lead, we are shotgunning too much at once. Let’s focus on one issue at a time. Going back to Genesis 2, what do you think of this:

Heb 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Does this not point back to God resting from his work in Genesis?

 

[Messenger]

also, going back to the stamp of the vatican… why would the papacy stamp a book to be printed if they don’t officially endorse it? In a sense they would be allowing false teachings to spread through their organization.

If that is true, I would wrestle the rubber stamp from the pope.

 

[Messenger]

Also what do you think of this regarding Genesis 2?

Didache #4

[c. 250-300 AD Apostolic Constitutions:] Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence . . . .—bk. 2, sec. 7, lix.

Isn’t this one of the sources Catholics and other Sunday keeping denominations cite from to illistrate Sunday being kept by early Christians?

 

[Messenger]

Could you post me all of the early church (christ to 500 A.D.) documents that state the people kept Sunday? Preferably from a non-religous source, but if it must come from a site subjective in nature, as long as it is accurate and leaves nothing out (half quoted statements).

Are these the common ones? Did leave any out?

Didache 1-5
Ignatius
Barnabas
Pliny
Epistula Apostolorum
Irenaeus

Thanks

 

[Messenger]

also, going back to the stamp of the vatican… why would the papacy stamp a book to be printed if they don’t officially endorse it? In a sense they would be allowing false teachings to spread through their organization.

If that is true, I would wrestle the rubber stamp from the pope.

Ok, I did some more research and for all to see:

A Roman Catholic imprimatur can consist of up to three stamps, each followed by a signature (name and title):

**Imprimi potest **(Latin, meaning “able to be printed”) – If the work is that of a member of a religious order, this stamp indicates that it has first been examined and approved by the religious superior or head of the religious order (or a duly appointed representative).

**Nihil obstat **(Latin, meaning “nothing hinders”) – This stamp indicates that the work has been examined and approved by the censor of the diocese, and that he finds it free of doctrinal or moral error. The censor is often a scholarly priest appointed by the bishop, and it is his task to work back-and-forth with the author of the work to correct any inaccuracies or problems.

**Imprimatur **(Latin, meaning “let it be printed”) – Finally, this stamp indicates that the work has been approved for printing by the bishop of the diocese, or other ecclesiastical authority.

These “stamps” and “signatures” are simply rendered in plain type on a page at the front of the book (i.e. they are not literal stamps and hand-written signatures), and are often followed by the date and place of signing, as on legal documents.

This was taken from wikapedia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprimatur

I would like to know for my own understanding which stamp these following books contain of the three listed above?

prompta bibliothica
congress cattecism of catholic doctirne
la civila cattlica
catholic national
joseph devarbe’s catehism
michael muller “the catholic priest”

 

[Maria1212]

Hmmm… your return question never answered my questions… LOL Let me ask again.

1. was a Sabbath ever mentioned?
2. Was anyone commanded to keep the Sabbath in Genesis 2?
3. Was anything talked about in regards to a weekly observance of the 7th day of creation in Genesis?

Can someone let me know what post number Messenger`s response to these questions is posted in. I read the whole thread but could not find it.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[SDA2RC]

Ok, I did some more research and for all to see:

A Roman Catholic imprimatur can consist of up to three stamps, each followed by a signature (name and title):

**Imprimi potest **(Latin, meaning “able to be printed”) – If the work is that of a member of a religious order, this stamp indicates that it has first been examined and approved by the religious superior or head of the religious order (or a duly appointed representative).

**Nihil obstat **(Latin, meaning “nothing hinders”) – This stamp indicates that the work has been examined and approved by the censor of the diocese, and that he finds it free of doctrinal or moral error. The censor is often a scholarly priest appointed by the bishop, and it is his task to work back-and-forth with the author of the work to correct any inaccuracies or problems.

**Imprimatur **(Latin, meaning “let it be printed”) – Finally, this stamp indicates that the work has been approved for printing by the bishop of the diocese, or other ecclesiastical authority.

These “stamps” and “signatures” are simply rendered in plain type on a page at the front of the book (i.e. they are not literal stamps and hand-written signatures), and are often followed by the date and place of signing, as on legal documents.

This was taken from wikapedia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprimatur

I would like to know for my own understanding which stamp these following books contain of the three listed above?

prompta bibliothica
congress cattecism of catholic doctirne
la civila cattlica
catholic national
joseph devarbe’s catehism
michael muller “the catholic priest”

Messenger, none of these stamps mean that the books are authoritative for the Church. These stamps are simply given by LOCAL bishops for permission to publish them with the blessing of the Church. They can still contain inaccuracies and teachings that the official church would not whole heartedly endorse. These stamps (especially the **Nihil obstat) **mean that the book should not contain anything injurious to the Church, but none of these stamps mean that they are considered authoritative for the Church. It is kind of like books printed by Pacific Press, or Review and Herald… they may or may not align exactly with SDA doctrine on every point, however, they are approved to be printed. This does not however, mean that they speak officially for the Adventist Church, as the General Conference reserves that right to herself.

It is a common misperception among Non-Catholics that just because a book has an imprimatur or Nihil Obstat, that the books must be considered as an authority for Catholics, it simply is not true.

Authoritiative documents for the Catholic Church are scripture, Official papal pronouncements given “ex Cathedra” (there are very few of these), and documents produced by a Church council, and approved by the Pope. In addition, the Official Catechism is considered be the only (in the USA)catechism which officially summarize our beliefs and is approved by the Vatican and Bishops for doctrinal authority.

Therefore, none of the books you listed would be considered authoritative for Catholics, however, they may be useful for understanding, devotion, or study.

Hope this helps.

 

[SDA2RC]

hi,

Ok, in reviewing the previous posts I believe, at my lead, we are shotgunning too much at once. Let’s focus on one issue at a time. Going back to Genesis 2, what do you think of this:

Heb 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Does this not point back to God resting from his work in Genesis?

Messenger,
There remains a rest, not a Sabbath Day, the rest we have is in Christ, we rest from our works and from fear. We believe that the Sabbath was a temporal rest which was fulfilled in the eternal rest that we now have in Christ. I do not believe that this verse points back to genesis 2, in fact I believe just the opposite, that Genesis 2 was a shadow of the Eternal Rest which could only be secured through the Death and Resurrection of Our Lord. Therefore, Genesis 2 points us to the eternal rest that we can all experience in Christ.

 

[SDA2RC]

Also what do you think of this regarding Genesis 2?

Didache #4

[c. 250-300 AD Apostolic Constitutions:] Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence . . . .—bk. 2, sec. 7, lix.

Isn’t this one of the sources Catholics and other Sunday keeping denominations cite from to illistrate Sunday being kept by early Christians?

Did you look this quote up? I think you will find the context enlightening.

(Hint: They were paraphrasing the 10 Commandments)

 

[SDA2RC]

Could you post me all of the early church (christ to 500 A.D.) documents that state the people kept Sunday? Preferably from a non-religous source, but if it must come from a site subjective in nature, as long as it is accurate and leaves nothing out (half quoted statements).

Are these the common ones? Did leave any out?

Didache 1-5
Ignatius
Barnabas
Pliny
Epistula Apostolorum
Irenaeus

Thanks

Here is a list given by Catholic Answers, you will need to look each of them up in context… you can usually find many of them at various sites around the web or in a library with a good collection of early Church fathers.

catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp

 

[Maria1212]

BTW… are you using any Catholic Commentaries or are you solely using protestant authored commentaries?

I highly recommend **A Biblical Defense of Catholicism **by Dave Armstrong. It also has excellent appendixes. Even if you choose not to believe in Catholicism, it clearly demonstrates that Catholic teachings are based on the Bible.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Messenger]

Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence

I was mostly posting that to emphasize that the author of this writing acknowledged that Christians kept/keep the Sabbath in honor of God resting from His work on the seventh day.

What’s your take on this?

 

[Messenger]

Here is more to consider regarding the meaning behind gen 2

2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."93
2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord’s day a memorial of Israel’s liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."94
2171 God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant.95 The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set apart for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Israel.
2172 God’s action is the model for human action. If God “rested and was refreshed” on the seventh day, man too ought to “rest” and should let others, especially the poor, "be refreshed."96 The sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.97

Cited from: Catechism of the Catholic Church (OFFICIAL)lol

Ex 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God…
Ex 20:11 for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The catechism even recognizes the origin of the Sabbath and states that we should follow God’s example in all things, in this case the Sabbath. Even the commandment itself points to its origin.

The reason I have not answered your question, “does gen 2 say that God intended on us to worship” etc is because if I said yes, well then I would technically be wrong because the exact wording of the passage does not say, “worship on this day”. If I said no then I would be in a sense denying the spirit of the passage.

I don’t think the origin of the Sabbath can get any clearer than that. During Israels 300 bondage in Egypt they lost certain truths they had before. They were out of touch with God. They had not kept a Sabbath for a large majority of that time (throughout generations). One can deduce this simply by asking themselves, would the king of Egypt give his slaves a day off each week? I think not. He could care less for the spiritual needs of Israel exemplified when Moses asked the pharoah to let them have 1 day to worship God in the wilderness

(Ex 5:1 ¶ Afterward Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh, “Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘Let My people go, that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness.’”)

As you may recall the pharoah didn’t like the idea. My point is when Israel left Egypt they had to re-receive the light of God through His word, thus the 10 commandments and Moses laws.

My whole point here is this: The Sabbath is not the Jewish Sabbath. It did not originate with the Jews. It started in creation with God. Adam kept the Sabbath just as Christ did.

 

[SDA2RC]

I was mostly posting that to emphasize that the author of this writing acknowledged that Christians kept/keep the Sabbath in honor of God resting from His work on the seventh day.

What’s your take on this?

Messenger, this is a little off topic, since I thought we were sticking first to Genesis 2, but really quickly, I do not believe that this passage, which BTW is referenced wrong, supports your position? I am wondering if you looked it up, because if so, you probably would have noticed that the actual passage is found in Book 2, Section 4 paragraph XXXVI not section 7 paragraph LIX, as you stated. This is why I asked if you had looked it up, if you had, you would have found that the quote you gave was not in the paragraph or section you gave. Again, this leads me to believe that you are merely citing a web page rather than doing the work yourself. I hope I am wrong.

Anyway, you also did not quote the entire passage, please let me do it for you:
Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, **not for idleness of the hands.
**This is exactly opposite of what scripture teaches… scripture teaches to rest from all labor (work of the hands) on the Sabbath, whereas this recitation of the 10 commandments commends a rest for meditation (mental) of the law, but not for labor or work.

I do not believe it supports Sabbath keeping. Further reading of the Apostolic constitutions will confirm this for you… as Christians are again and again commended the Lords day for gathering and worship.

Now… back to Genesis

 

[SDA2RC]

Here is more to consider regarding the meaning behind gen 2

2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."93
2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord’s day a memorial of Israel’s liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."94
2171 God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant.95 The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set apart for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Israel.
2172 God’s action is the model for human action. If God “rested and was refreshed” on the seventh day, man too ought to “rest” and should let others, especially the poor, "be refreshed."96 The sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.97
Cited from: Catechism of the Catholic Church (OFFICIAL)lol

Who-hoo… now there is something we can talk about! I admitted previously that the Catholic Church has always stated that he Sabbath was on Saturday. But I want you to notice Paragraph 2171 which you quoted above. "God entrusted the Sabbath to ISRAEL, and I agree that man too ought to rest… However, what the Catechism does not say is that Christians should still rest on the Jewish Sabbath!

The Sabbath does point back to what happened in creation, but again, this does not mean that he Sabbath orginated in Genesis, we have absolutely NO PROOF of that. Quite clearly Genesis 2 DOES NOT state that he Sabbath was instituted at creation, as you are claiming.

The catechism even recognizes the origin of the Sabbath and states that we should follow God’s example in all things, in this case the Sabbath. Even the commandment itself points to its origin.

Did I mention that I was proud of you about using an official Catholic source… this is a first among Adventists on this board… LOL Anyway… The Catechism does recognize the origin of the Sabbath with ISRAEL, not ADAM AND EVE. We should follow God’s example in all things, this however does not mean that we are required to follow Jewish institutions, as the Catechism goes on to say in
Paragraph 2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord’s Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.
Cont.

 

[SDA2RC]

The reason I have not answered your question, “does gen 2 say that God intended on us to worship” etc is because if I said yes, well then I would technically be wrong because the exact wording of the passage does not say, “worship on this day”. If I said no then I would be in a sense denying the spirit of the passage.

Thank you… You are right… you would be wrong if you said yes… but you see the “spirit” of the passage as you put it, is inserted by you based on your beliefs and interpretive framework. If you said “No” then you would be forced to accept what scripture actually says, regardless of your how you have interpreted it in the past. Read scripture for what it says… I really think it is important to not try to insert an act (the establishment of a weekly Sabbath binding on all mankind) where one does not exist in the text (by your own admission).

I don’t think the origin of the Sabbath can get any clearer than that.

This is where we differ, If God had wanted us to believe as you do, he simply could have said that the Sabbath was instituted on Day 7 of Creation… but he didnt! It could have been much clearer if your view was correct. I believe it is important to take scripture at what it says, not what works with my theology. The plain and simple truth, as you said, is that the actual language of the text does not say that a weekly sabbath binding on mankind is established. Here you are relying on your INTERPRETATION or “reading between the lines”, to establish your belief. As soon as you do that, you have abandoned basing your beliefs on scripture and instead begun placing yourself above scripture and what you think God “really meant to say” above what He actually did say. The fact is that he didnt say it… I dont know how much clearer I can make it.

During Israels 300 bondage in Egypt they lost certain truths they had before. They were out of touch with God. They had not kept a Sabbath for a large majority of that time (throughout generations).

Um… again this is something not found in the Bible. For someone who came to the forum saying that you need to base everything on the Bible, you sure make a lot of extra-Biblical statements… LOL . Scripture never records anyone keeping the Sabbath before they went into Egypt, therefore how can you possibly say that they lost the Sabbath truth, and that they had not kept a Sabbath for a large majority of the time. IF you really base your beliefs on scripture alone, rather than SDA theology, the only conclusion you can make is that according to scripture, there is no record of them ever keeping the Sabbath before the Exodus.

As you may recall the pharoah didn’t like the idea. My point is when Israel left Egypt they had to re-receive the light of God through His word, thus the 10 commandments and Moses laws.

Again, the problem being that scripture NEVER states that anyone ever kept a Sabbath prior to the Exodus, so the idea that it was being “reintroduced” to them is simply not biblical. It is a man made insertion into the scriptural narrative, designed to support a doctrine which scripture does not support.

My whole point here is this: The Sabbath is not the Jewish Sabbath. It did not originate with the Jews. It started in creation with God. Adam kept the Sabbath just as Christ did.

You know my first response… You claim that you follow scripture only, therefore I must ask, please prove from scripture that, “Adam kept the Sabbath”. If you cannot do that, you have proven to the forum that you in fact do not base all your beliefs on scripture. Further, scripture never records ANYONE other than the Jews being given the Sabbath commandment. No one before the Jews in Exodus 16 was given the Sabbath, God said that the Sabbath was a sign between He and ISREAL (not Seventh-Day Adventists), and there is not one single instance of a Christian (i.e. after the resurrection of Christ) being commanded to observe the Sabbath. In fact quite the opposite.
The point is that while I understand that you believe in the Sabbath, you yourself have to admit that technically (not even technically in my opinion) there is no establishment of the Sabbath in Genesis. I believe God inspired the writers of scripture and I believe that inserting “private interpretation” into scripture is condemned in the Bible. Therefore, as a Catholic, I cannot accept this violation of Holy Scripture. (2 Pet 1:20 NASB) But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
I must accept the plain words of scripture, rather than your interpretation of them which contradicts the plain words of scripture.

BTW… you still never directly answered my three questions… LOL

So… what do you want to discuss next?