Support for Jews

[didi1961]

This is all interesting food for thought. I truely believe that the whole situation between Palestine and Israel stinks for both sides. As anyplace else, you can find nice normal people who just want to be left alone and live in peace and then you find crazy fanatics who ruin it for the rest.
I like to support Jews who are persecuted in other countries and help them get back to their homeland if they so desire. This is not for biblical reasons as some members stated as the main reason for people doing this (and I’m sure there are the ones who do).
Speaking from a strictly humanitarian standpoint (and all politics aside), we need to lend a helping hand for those in need. Which brings me to the point of helping “everybody” who needs help - which includes the other side, too. This had been on my mind for a while and I finally got the chance to help a little Palestinian girl who lives in the West Bank Gaza, through the “World Vision” organization. Those people are also being deprived of some basic human needs and are suffering, so they need help just as well. As Christians following in Jesus’ footsteps, we are all called to be charitable people to whoever needs our charity. :grouphug:

 

[Sepharad]

Hello Sepharad,

The owners of these so called " triumphant attitudes" can be seen quite differently by the members of this forum ( I am one )

I believe YOU as well as all the Jews are indeed the chosen people. ( not because YOU INSIST on it but rather the bible tells me so.

(rest snipped for brevity in replying)

I do believe the Jewish people are God’s chosen BUT I try to emphasize that God’s loves ALL people, not only the Jews.

I recently switched synagogues largely for this reason…I wanted a place to worship where I did not always have to hear, “…You, who hast chosen us ABOVE all other nations”, and now I hear, “You, who has chosen us with love and favor”…period. It was that important to me.

I really wanted to get away from the triumphalistic mindset, but without removing any reference to the Jews as the chosen people (which Scripturally, we are.)

I also want people, Jews as well as Gentiles, to understand what “chosenness” means. It does not mean “better than”; it means chosen for a specific mission of honoring the Covenant of God, and being a light unto the Gentiles in the best way we can.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

(rest snipped for brevity in replying)

I do believe the Jewish people are God’s chosen BUT I try to emphasize that God’s loves ALL people, not only the Jews.

I recently switched synagogues largely for this reason…I wanted a place to worship where I did not always have to hear, “…You, who hast chosen us ABOVE all other nations”, and now I hear, “You, who has chosen us with love and favor”…period. It was that important to me.

I really wanted to get away from the triumphalistic mindset, but without removing any reference to the Jews as the chosen people (which Scripturally, we are.)

I also want people, Jews as well as Gentiles, to understand what “chosenness” means. It does not mean “better than”; it means chosen for a specific mission of honoring the Covenant of God, and being a light unto the Gentiles in the best way we can.

hello again Sepharad, ( and good night, my gorgious bride wants me to go night night) lol

Very Well said ( my humble opinion)

God bless,
Carl

 

[belgianwaffles9]

I really wanted to get away from the triumphalistic mindset, but without removing any reference to the Jews as the chosen people (which Scripturally, we are.)

I also want people, Jews as well as Gentiles, to understand what “chosenness” means. It does not mean “better than”; it means chosen for a specific mission of honoring the Covenant of God, and being a light unto the Gentiles in the best way we can.

See, i feel the exact same way, from the point of view of my religion. Scripturally (that is, according to our scripture), we are God’s Church. And it means so much more than being a chosen “people” because we are many peoples, and people of many nationalities, races, colors, rites, etc etc. We feel that this truly is the best way to emphasize God’s love for all: that the Church is truly open to all, jews AND gentiles.

We do believe we are correct, and we do believe in the end our Church will triumph - over evil, over sin, over death. Thus, I do express a triumphant joy at being Catholic. Am I to be denied that belief or that feeling?

I understand how you feel, because I feel it too. We believe we are “chosen for a specific mission of honoring the Covenant of God,” which we believe to be the Church, and we believe we must be “a light unto” non-Catholics in the best way we can. Including you. As a Jew, we would love to see you and your entire people especially come into the Church, because we truly believe that it is God fulfilling his every promise to you.

I appreciate and understand how you feel, yet I also feel slighted by you, in that you seemed not to undertand or accept how we can feel the same way.

 

[Valke2]

I hope you dont really mean this? (I’ve been guilty of shooting off emails or post responses I didn’t really mean and have regretted). I’m a Jew who believes in Christ as the Messiah (call me a Christian or a Jewish believer, I’m not a label person). To me, this book burning was hauntingly reminicent of book burnings in Germany. There is never really any excuse for burning another’s holy scriptures - its not a Jewish, or Christian, thing to do.

I understand, from your other posts, that you are a Jewish antimissionary - I respect your right to expound your views, share your literature and engage in respectful debate. I’m happy to do the same - and maye be we can learn from each other?

Blessings,

Brian

wait a sec. If JW come to my shul and dump a load of pamphlets there every shabbot, and we decide to burn the pamphlets out of protest, you would compare that to book burning in Nazi Germany??

 

[ruslan]

wait a sec. If JW come to my shul and dump a load of pamphlets there every shabbot, and we decide to burn the pamphlets out of protest, you would compare that to book burning in Nazi Germany??

Well, if I found a load of Torahs dumped in my yard on a Sunday (or any other day) - should I just go ahead and burn them? (BTW, I would not burn them).

I ask this with a great deal of charity.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I suggest you visit Palestine & speak to the people under occupation for 40yrs. Their land has been taken, their houses bulldozed; their orchards & olive groves destroyed.

To equate Israel with the Jewish people is a very naive idea - most Israelis are secular, even atheists. Many orthodox rabbis refuse to recognize the legitimacy of Israel since a Jewish state can only be founded when the Messiah appears.

The Holocaust happened in Europe not in the Arab or Moslem world where Jews lived happily for hundreds of years. Pograms occurred regularly in Russia & Poland but not in Iran where today the second largest world community of Jews live and even train in the Iranian army. One should never equate a religion with a State; particularly where the vast majority of the citizens are non-religious.

To many people outside US, Israel is an illegal, colonial power which refuses to comply with numerous UN decrees. There can never be peace until Israel returns to its '67 borders and gives the occupied land back to the Palestinians.

More & more moderate Jews are leaving Israel for Europe or US; believing they have much more in common with that culture than the ME. Another 20yrs will bring radical changes to that part of the world. Once the oil is gone US will no longer have any interest in the place & it will return to desert as in Biblical times. Probably a good thing.

Tob,

You’re quite misinformed on several fronts. The biggest one that jumped out at me is your ascertian that Iran has the second largest Jewish population exists in Iran. Iran ranks 25th with fewer than 21,000 Jews…down from 80,000 in 1979 before the Iranian revolution…get your facts straight, the Populations stats go US, Israel, Russia, France…only the US and Israel have a population of more than 1 million Jews.

Why is Gaza and the West Bank occupied by Israel? Does Israel just arbitrarily go in and bulldoze homes, or is it in retaliation for terrorist attacks? Was the West Bank and Gaza NOT occupied before 1967? How are Palestinian Arabs treated in other arab countries as oppossed to their treatment in Israel and the West Bank?

Many Orthodox Rabbis and most Reform and Conservatives DO recognize Israel.

Hitler made no distinction between religious and non-religious Jews…so the argument that Israel isn’t Jewish due to a secular nature is mute.

The following paragraph needs to be visited in detail:

To many people outside US, Israel is an illegal, colonial power which refuses to comply with numerous UN decrees. There can never be peace until Israel returns to its '67 borders and gives the occupied land back to the Palestinians.

The opinion of those who don’t consider Israel to be a legal nation are mute…the United Nations authorized the founding of Israel. Israel rightly ignores UN resolutions because the UN attempts to interfere UNFAIRLY in Israeli internal and defense matters. When the UN starts to issue resolutions against Palestinain terror and Arab aggression perhaps those decrees will carry some weight.

And here’s the most ridiculous sentence:

There can never be peace until Israel returns to its '67 borders and gives the occupied land back to the Palestinians

Was there peace BEFORE Israel took the West Bank and Gaza in 1967? NO! Arabs used these territories to launch attacks agains the nation of Israel. NOTHING CHANGES by giving full control of the West Bank and Gaza to the Arabs, they would still be used as launching points for attacks against innocent civilians. No, peace will not come until the Arabs renounce terror as a tool. Who here thinks Palestine would have a nation if back in 1994 the Palestinians rejected terrorism out of hand and started trying to build a state?

 

[Yerusalyim]

So what? That is not excuse, even if it was completely true. Jewish settlers were mobilizing for war even before the UN mandate and official independance. Not to mention, even forming the state of Israel was a defacto declaration of war against the Arab states in the region, who retaliated based on justified concerned.

You seem to forget that the Arabs were also mobilized for war before the UN Mandate. Forming the State of Israel was NOT a “defacto declaration of war” except that the Arabs didn’t want Israel to exist. The first aggression in the first Arab/Israel war was by the Arab states moving against the soveriegn nation of Israel. This was no “retaliation” the “justified concern” was that the Arabs did not want a Jewish State. This was NAKED AGGRESSION on the part of the Arabs…had they not attacked, neither would Israel have attacked.

And so what if they do? It is still very little, so i have every right to be unsatisfied. Just look at the horrible relations between the Israeli government and the Vatican. Or the recent bonfires of Books of Gospels organized by the Israelis.

After 1700 years of on again off again persecution by Christians the Israelis have a right to be stand offish about overtures from the Vatican. I don’t condone the burning of books by anyone, but I don’t condone the burning of people either.

God loves the Jews? Yes, because he loves everybody. But the covenant that was Judaism was fulfilled. THE CHURCH is God’s new chosen people. Jesus satisfied, fulfilled, and ended Judaism. Christians are God’s people.

You should study the theology of the Church a little more in depth. The Church says that Judaism is already a response to the call of God. Christians do not REPLACE Israel in the covenant, but are grafted into the tree of Israel. The Jews are STILL God’s chosen people because God’s call and promises are IRREVOCABLE…that’s what the Church teaches inspite of the replacement theology proposed by some.

And before them, it was controlled by phoenecians. Lets revive phoenicia! Long live Phoenicia! The Coast was controled by Phoenecians…find me some phoenencians today and we can have this discussion, otherwise, it’s a mute point.

Why would we want a jewish religious state any more than we would want a religious Islamic state. In many ways, Islam is even less heretical that Judaism! Besides, your assertion that Israel is the lone voice of reason in the region is ridiculous; there are arab countries there which are truly “western” and modern. But contemporary western values are ridiculous values to establish a society on anyways.

Perhaps it’s because this Jewish state is the only reliable friend of the US in the region, it brings the light of democracy into an otherwise despotic world. Perhaps it’s because no one has tried to murder all the Muslims, but there are still those in the world that would destory all Jews…Iran for instance. Which countries in the Arab world are Western and Modern?

 

[Lev23]

Because of the nature of this thread I won’t belabor these points too much except to say that Israel expanded it’s UN boarders because it was attacked by 5 Arab armies on the day of its creation. .

Yup, those armies tried to kill the “baby in the crib”, but failed.

 

[Valke2]

Well, if I found a load of Torahs dumped in my yard on a Sunday (or any other day) - should I just go ahead and burn them? (BTW, I would not burn them).

I ask this with a great deal of charity.

First, that is not likely to happen.

Second, you’d be better off selling them on Ebay. You could probably get an average of $15,000 per Torah Scroll.

However, if I distributed Copies of the Chumash (the book form of the Torah) in a traditional Muslim neighborhood, as part of a campaign to convert them, I would bear much of the responsibility if they choose to burn or otherwise destroy them.

 

[ruslan]

First, that is not likely to happen.

Second, you’d be better off selling them on Ebay. You could probably get an average of $15,000 per Torah Scroll.

However, if I distributed Copies of the Chumash (the book form of the Torah) in a traditional Muslim neighborhood, as part of a campaign to convert them, I would bear much of the responsibility if they choose to burn or otherwise destroy them.

It’s not a matter of whether or not it’s likely to happen. It’s a matter of whether or not I should burn them if it did happen.

I would not sell them on eBay either.

Your reply tells me a lot.

 

[Valke2]

It’s not a matter of whether or not it’s likely to happen. It’s a matter of whether or not I should burn them if it did happen.

I would not sell them on eBay either.

Your reply tells me a lot.

I’m happy to be informative. If I knew you were not jewish and I purposely left texts at your premises, you’d be perfectly justified in burning them, tearing them up, mulching them or whatever.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I am delighted that the thread hasn’t resulted in too much mud-slinging. I was hoping to avoid that. We’ve seen some who support Israel and the Jews, some who support one or the other and those who don’t do either.

My original questions to our Jewish friends here still stands. Do you embrace Christian support for Jews and/or Israel? Are you skeptical of their motives? Do you want their support?

And even on another note: Do you like the support from America as a nation towards Israel and your people? Do you want it? Do you feel like you need it?

Thank you in advance.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I’m happy to be informative. If I knew you were not jewish and I pruposely left texts at your premises, you’d be perfectly justified in burning them, tearing them up, mulching them or whatever.

Yes. I wouldn’t burn them though. I would trash them. I sometimes receive religious propaganda. I may look at it, see how ridiculous I think it is and it goes in the trash. Generally, burning implies something evil that needs to be incinerated so that no wandering soul may pick it up and be tainted by it.

Peace…

MW

 

[judcath4]

First, that is not likely to happen.

Second, you’d be better off selling them on Ebay. You could probably get an average of $15,000 per Torah Scroll.

However, if I distributed Copies of the Chumash (the book form of the Torah) in a traditional Muslim neighborhood, as part of a campaign to convert them, I would bear much of the responsibility if they choose to burn or otherwise destroy them.

LOL! Another Jew trying to make money somehow!! Hahahahah

 

[Yerusalyim]

LOL! Another Jew trying to make money somehow!! Hahahahah

OK, joke or not that was uncalled for.

Torah scrolls do pull good geld though.

To the OP’s question, none of the Jewish Organizations I’ve given to have a problem with my being a Christian and giving them money.

 

[Sepharad]

Well, if I found a load of Torahs dumped in my yard on a Sunday (or any other day) - should I just go ahead and burn them? (BTW, I would not burn them).

I ask this with a great deal of charity.

I suppose that would be within your right. But we do not dump our religious books onto people who do not want them.

In the Middle Ages, in France and a few other countries, the Catholic Church went out and took copies of the Talmud from rabbis and burned them publicly. Thye did this after several Jewish converts to Catholicism, in an attempt to “get back” at their people, lied and said the Talmud was nothing more than slurs against Jesus and Mary (for reference, look up Nicholas Donin, Paul of Burgos, Pablo Christiani and a few other Jewish converts to Catholicism…none of whom ever have their testimonies listed, for some odd reason, when Catholics list all the Jews who became Catholics…but I digress…)

Was that also OK? For them to go and take what did not belong to them and burn them in bonfires?

At least the religious Jews in Israel did not go to the Christians, take their literature and burn it. It was dumped, in massive quantities, ON THEIR TOWN.

 

[Sepharad]

I am delighted that the thread hasn’t resulted in too much mud-slinging. I was hoping to avoid that. We’ve seen some who support Israel and the Jews, some who support one or the other and those who don’t do either.

My original questions to our Jewish friends here still stands. Do you embrace Christian support for Jews and/or Israel? Are you skeptical of their motives? Do you want their support?

And even on another note: Do you like the support from America as a nation towards Israel and your people? Do you want it? Do you feel like you need it?

Thank you in advance.

Peace…

MW

I’ll respond as a Jew with much experience with Christianity, and their missionaries. I also respond as a Jew who is very familiar with Jewish history.

Historically, whenever Christians sought to befriend us, it was with an ulterior motive. I am not saying ALL Christians, today, have such a motive, but many if not most, do.

It is part of much evangelical theology that Jesus cannot return until the Jews are re-established in the Holy Land. According to the most traditional Jewish theology, the Jewish people will not be returned to the Holy Land until the Messiah comes. The most traditional Jews believe that until Messiah comes and reestablishes us in our Land, we have no rightful claim to it.

Secular and less religious Jews tend to grasp onto Christian support for their zionist state, because many of them have lost much hope in God and a coming Messiah, and see that state as their savior. I do not.

As a non-zionist Jew, Christian support of the zionist state means nothing to me. Unlike the less religious Jews, the Orthodox know why most evangelicals support the zionist state, and they are not fooled. The root cause of it is their own religious theology, though I do think they respect the Jews because of the promise God made in the Torah (“I will bless them that bless you, and curse those that curse you”). I think one reason why we see more expressions of love from evangelicals than from Catholics is because they tend to be more familiar with the Bible (esp. the Jewish part of it) than Catholics historically have been.

As for America, I love this country above all others not because they “support Israel”, but because this is the only country that was willing to give my grandparents a save haven from Tsarist pogroms. I consider myself an American, first and foremost, and believe that God expects all Jews to be loyal to the countries in which He has scattered us, to pray for their welfare and to work for it (this is even stated by the prophet Yirmayahu/Jeremiah.)

 

[Sepharad]

LOL! Another Jew trying to make money somehow!! Hahahahah

An antisemitic, stereotypical comment from a Jewish convert to Catholicism. Hmmm…

 

[judcath4]

An antisemitic, stereotypical comment from a Jewish convert to Catholicism. Hmmm…

If you don’t have a sense of humor on this forum forget it…and what is it you are implying Sepahard? Or should I say Rabbi?