Support for Jews

[Sepharad]

If you don’t have a sense of humor on this forum forget it…and what is it you are implying Sepahard? Or should I say Rabbi?

You have made a number of antisemitic, stereotypical, supercessionist comments on this forum since you arrived, all the while, claiming to be a Jewish convert to Catholicism.

All I’m saying is, you are confirming what most Jews have always known about many such converts.

 

[Sepharad]

Never mind my last comment…I just realized who you are, “Judcath4”…the writing style, the anti-Jewish comments, the targeting of me…looks like I have to plunk you into the ignore file as I did your previous nom de plume.

(Not to mention that this “judcath4” handle showed up a mere 2 hours or so after your previous handle was banned…)

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

LOL! Another Jew trying to make money somehow!! Hahahahah

Don’t do this.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I’ll respond as a Jew with much experience with Christianity, and their missionaries. I also respond as a Jew who is very familiar with Jewish history.

I’m glad you responded.

Historically, whenever Christians sought to befriend us, it was with an ulterior motive. I am not saying ALL Christians, today, have such a motive, but many if not most, do.

I’m sure that’s true. You’ll have to take me at my word, but I want you to know that I’m not one of those.

It is part of much evangelical theology that Jesus cannot return until the Jews are re-established in the Holy Land. According to the most traditional Jewish theology, the Jewish people will not be returned to the Holy Land until the Messiah comes. The most traditional Jews believe that until Messiah comes and reestablishes us in our Land, we have no rightful claim to it.

Yes, I’ve heard this before too.

Secular and less religious Jews tend to grasp onto Christian support for their zionist state, because many of them have lost much hope in God and a coming Messiah, and see that state as their savior. I do not.

I didn’t know that. Interesting.

As a non-zionist Jew, Christian support of the zionist state means nothing to me. Unlike the less religious Jews, the Orthodox know why most evangelicals support the zionist state, and they are not fooled. The root cause of it is their own religious theology, though I do think they respect the Jews because of the promise God made in the Torah (“I will bless them that bless you, and curse those that curse you”). I think one reason why we see more expressions of love from evangelicals than from Catholics is because they tend to be more familiar with the Bible (esp. the Jewish part of it) than Catholics historically have been.

As a lifelong reader of the Bible and Bible studies as an evangelical, I can tell you that that verse (Gen. 12:3) is one I’ve remembered over the years. I can’t take that verse any other way. There are others as well, many in fact, that speak of God’s love for the Jewish people, His favor upon them, etc. So, I’ve not looked to theology to explain why or why not the Jews are the chosen ones or replaced or what have you. I take a literal reading of those Scriptures and live by them.

If I may ask, you state you are a non-Zionist Jew, so then are you Orthodox, secular or something else? I admit I’m ignorant of the differences.

As for America, I love this country above all others not because they “support Israel”, but because this is the only country that was willing to give my grandparents a save haven from Tsarist pogroms. I consider myself an American, first and foremost, and believe that God expects all Jews to be loyal to the countries in which He has scattered us, to pray for their welfare and to work for it (this is even stated by the prophet Yirmayahu/Jeremiah.)

I’m thankful that our country has been so open to receiving folks from all over, especially to the Jewish people. It seems that America and Israel has the most Jewish people in the world. I’m proud of that as an American.

Thank you for addressing my questions. That’s the intent of the thread - dialogue and understanding.

Peace…

MW

 

[Valke2]

Tob,

You’re quite misinformed on several fronts. The biggest one that jumped out at me is your ascertian that Iran has the second largest Jewish population exists in Iran. Iran ranks 25th with fewer than 21,000 Jews…down from 80,000 in 1979 before the Iranian revolution…get your facts straight, the Populations stats go US, Israel, Russia, France…only the US and Israel have a population of more than 1 million Jews.

It is the largest jewish population in the mideast outside of Israel.

 

[Robbinson]

wait a sec. If JW come to my shul and dump a load of pamphlets there every shabbot, and we decide to burn the pamphlets out of protest, you would compare that to book burning in Nazi Germany??

Hello Rabbi:

This really isn’t the same thing at all.

First JW materials, as you describe, are not their Holy Scriptures but rather descriptions of their faith and theological essays about God and the Bible. Similarly, Christian tracks and materials about Chrisitan theology would not be akin to holy scriptures.

Second - I think you would agree that the “burning” of the Bible is, (forgive the pun) incendary - and very symbolic. I can’t imagine publicly burning any one’s Holy Sciptures (and to your point, I would never publcly burn the JW written materials either - I would, if not interested, disgard them, but not in a public burning). I can’t imagine the circumstances under which a public burning of the Torah/Old Testatement would not generate a public outcry by the Jewish community (as it should).

Would you endorse a burning of the Koran? (that’s a rhetorical question - of course not), nor would you or I react well to someone burning the Torah - under any circumstances.

For the record, we are visted frequently by JW neighbors and my wife routinely invite them in. I’m not suggesting that is required - a simple “no thank you” will do.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Lev23]

It is part of much evangelical theology that Jesus cannot return until the Jews are re-established in the Holy Land. According to the most traditional Jewish theology, the Jewish people will not be returned to the Holy Land until the Messiah comes. The most traditional Jews believe that until Messiah comes and reestablishes us in our Land, we have no rightful claim to it.

Secular and less religious Jews tend to grasp onto Christian support for their zionist state, because many of them have lost much hope in God and a coming Messiah, and see that state as their savior. I do not.

As a non-zionist Jew, Christian support of the zionist state means nothing to me. Unlike the less religious Jews, the Orthodox know why most evangelicals support the zionist state, and they are not fooled. The root cause of it is their own religious theology, …
…in which He has scattered us, to pray for their welfare and to work for it (this is even stated by the prophet Yirmayahu/Jeremiah.)

Well, according to you then, most “traditional Jews” ignore Ezekiel 36 an 37, or totally misinterpret it altogether.

I think this whole scenario stinks. I wish people would jettison this “traditional view” garbage and simply read what the God of Israel says.

Before the Messiah comes back, God will allow the Jews to come back in the land, and even the land was prophesied to so it will flourish again by their hand when they return.

The God of Israel tells the House of Israel to “be ashamed” for their conduct among the nations and that he is doing all of this not for their sake, but for his Holy Namesake.

A simple reading of Ezekiel 36, 37 and beyond would disprove the oldest “traditional” views and support what is happening in the land today.

It is amazing that most Jews returning to the land tend to be more secular. They live there, work the ground and making a go of the place, in accordance to God’s prophecy. It is the religious “naysayers” that are working against God’s prophecy because God’s Word goes against their “traditional beliefs”.

If you think about it, when one tells a Jew that the current event of Jews back en masse in the land of Israel is NOT of God, is really the act of aiding that Jew in their unbelief.

 

[Lev23]

Most evangelical Christians support the zionist state because they think it is a fulfillment of their prophecies that the Jews must be returned to the Land before their messiah returns. I really don’t think they support the zionist state out of a true love for Jews, but because they see the establishment of the state as one further step toward the return of their messiah.

One thing they forget is that the most religious of the Orthodox Jews are not zionists, and many are even anti-zionist (see this website for more info: jewsagainstzionism.com

Many Jews, even the zionist ones, do not truly trust the evangelicals; they feel the support they give is designed to assist in their efforts to ultimately convert Jews to Christianity.

We are not as dumb as we may seem, you know.

Then read and listen to the prophets then!

 

[Lev23]

I suggest you visit Palestine & speak to the people under occupation for 40yrs. Their land has been taken, their houses bulldozed; their orchards & olive groves destroyed.

To equate Israel with the Jewish people is a very naive idea - most Israelis are secular, even atheists. Many orthodox rabbis refuse to recognize the legitimacy of Israel since a Jewish state can only be founded when the Messiah appears.

The Holocaust happened in Europe not in the Arab or Moslem world where Jews lived happily for hundreds of years. Pograms occurred regularly in Russia & Poland but not in Iran where today the second largest world community of Jews live and even train in the Iranian army. One should never equate a religion with a State; particularly where the vast majority of the citizens are non-religious.

To many people outside US, Israel is an illegal, colonial power which refuses to comply with numerous UN decrees. There can never be peace until Israel returns to its '67 borders and gives the occupied land back to the Palestinians.

More & more moderate Jews are leaving Israel for Europe or US; believing they have much more in common with that culture than the ME. Another 20yrs will bring radical changes to that part of the world. Once the oil is gone US will no longer have any interest in the place & it will return to desert as in Biblical times. Probably a good thing.

These lies must be printed on a cue card and put on windshields of cars in Church parking lots while service is going on. Again, the scriptually illiterate will fall for these type of things.

 

[Lev23]

God loves the Jews? Yes, because he loves everybody. But the covenant that was Judaism was fulfilled. THE CHURCH is God’s new chosen people. Jesus satisfied, fulfilled, and ended Judaism. Christians are God’s people.

.

Show me anywhere in the bible where God will have a new chosen people, a new and improved Israel, etc., etc.

The Covenant is New. God promised it to the same House of Israel and Judah as there is today. We know also know it is also for the gentiles. So it is for all people.

Read Romans 11 again. The Olive Tree is now comprised of natural and wild branches(gentiles) that were grafted in. Outside of the tree are broken off natural branches and wild shoots. St.Paul said how natural for a broken branch of the original Olive Tree can be grafted back in, especially if God can graft a wild branch into it. Though they are broken off, they are still a natural branch of the tree, if they get grafted back in, it is if they never were broken off. The broken branches are still Gods chosen people. They need to repent and seek him the way he wishes to be sought according to the scriptures and the Gospel of Yeshua.

We should never present the Gospel to the Jews as if it came from outside their nation. Because Yeshua was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And his disciples took the Gospel, starting in Jerusalem, out to the whole world.

 

[Valke2]

Hello Rabbi:

This really isn’t the same thing at all.

First JW materials, as you describe, are not their Holy Scriptures but rather descriptions of their faith and theological essays about God and the Bible. Similarly, Christian tracks and materials about Chrisitan theology would not be akin to holy scriptures.

Ok. why distribute your holy scriptures in an orthodox jewish neighborhood?

Second - I think you would agree that the “burning” of the Bible is, (forgive the pun) incendary - and very symbolic.

I agree. I believe the burning in this case symolized the orthdox jewish community’s anger about having their children, friends and family bombarded with someone else’s scripture in an attempt to get them to abandon their faith.

Would you endorse a burning of the Koran? (that’s a rhetorical question - of course not), nor would you or I react well to someone burning the Torah - under any circumstances.

I would not endorse burning anything. However, if muslims targeted a jewish neighborhood to distribute copies of the Quran, I would not blame the neighborhood for destroying the books by burning or otherwise. This is not a case of going out, grabbing books with ideas you don’t agree with, and burning them. This is a case of staying home, having people force these books on you continually and reacting to that.

And I’m not a rabbi. I think you are confused by my signature quote from Rabbi Cohen (he’s not a rabbi either, he’s a folk singer).

 

[Valke2]

These lies must be printed on a cue card and put on windshields of cars in Church parking lots while service is going on. Again, the scriptually illiterate will fall for these type of things.

would you burn the cue cards?

 

[Robbinson]

And I’m not a rabbi. I think you are confused by my signature quote from Rabbi Cohen (he’s not a rabbi either, he’s a folk singer).

Thanks for the clarification (my bad).

I guess we just have a disagreement (not a religious disagreement, one of principle). I would never burn another’s Holy Scriptures under any circumstances as regardless of the circumstances (whether I did something insensitive or not), I would never want to see someone do that to me.

This concept of do onto others as you would have them do onto you is both Christian (part of the golden rule in the New Testatement) and part of traditional Jewish teaching. ***Hillel said: ‘What is hateful to yourself do not do to another, that is the whole law, the rest is commentary’ (BT Shab. 31a). ***

Blessings,

Brian

 

[LutheranDK]

Support for Jews and support for Israel are, or can be, different things.

To me at least, Jews are a people who are in a minority everywhere they are, except in Israel. They have been savagely persecuted for being Jews, and, generally speaking, are big believers in education and hard work. For that, they deserve a unique form of respect as a group. Some individual Jews are, of course, skunks, as are some Catholics.

Israel is an ally of the U.S.; a bastion of western rationality and progress in a sea of despotism, thuggery and social chaos. The people are largely Jews, which makes them more predictable and understandable to westerners who are familiar with Jews in their own countries.

I am not sure I would prefer to live in a land in which the majority is Jewish, any more than I would prefer to live among the Mormons in Utah, and for the same reason. But if I were a Christian Arab, I would rather live in Israel than in any other Middle Eastern country, and that’s for sure, not because it’s Jewish but because it’s sane.

:clapping:

 

[LutheranDK]

Politically, Israle is interesting, and odd.

I find it hard to support Israel’s politcs sometimes, since they wasted no time expanding beyond their original UN Mandated terrority after their state was artifically created. On the other hand, the people living there have as much a right to live free of terror as anyone else does.

However, i do not support the state of Israel because of the horrible restrictions it places on Palestinan Christians, a large percentage of whom are Catholic, plus a number of Orthodox.

Israel is not friend of Christianity, and i have never understood why evangelical Christian groups are such strong supporters of israel.

Here we go with the “Palestinian” myth again…
You quite conveniently forget that the reason Israel “expanded beyond their original UN Mandated territory” was that the Arab hordes were swarming across the border, trying to crush Israel, and finish off what Hitler had failed to do.

Israel does not place restrictions on Arab Christians because they are Christians. It places restrictions on the West Bank and Gaza, because those who live there keep protecting terrorists who murder innocent civilians at random if they can get the chance.
No other place in the Middle East do Christians enjoy the kind of religious freedom than in Israel. Sure, there are Orthodox Jews who do their very best to make life for non-Jews as difficult as possible, but a good illustration of just how Christians and Messianics are in Israel, is the following true story:
During a campaign in Israel a few years back, Jews for Jesus-staff were assaulted by a group of Orthodox Jews. They took shelter inside a store, and called the police. Guess what happened - the police showed up and helped them out of harms way untouched. This would NOT have happened in an Arabic country! The police, if they even bothered to show up, would join the attackers, and beat the … out of the missionaries for evangelizing to muslims.
So when I repeat: There is no safer place in the Middle East to be Christian than in Israel, it is not a mere opinion. It is a fact. Period.

 

[LutheranDK]

I would not endorse burning anything. However, if muslims targeted a jewish neighborhood to distribute copies of the Quran, I would not blame the neighborhood for destroying the books by burning or otherwise. This is not a case of going out, grabbing books with ideas you don’t agree with, and burning them. This is a case of staying home, having people force these books on you continually and reacting to that.

And I’m not a rabbi. I think you are confused by my signature quote from Rabbi Cohen (he’s not a rabbi either, he’s a folk singer).

I’m sorry, but you forgot to answer the second part of the question you were asked:
Would you, under any circumstances, say “Oh, well, it was our own fault”, if someone decided to feed a fire with the Torah (or Mishna and Talmud for that matter)?

 

[Muzhik]

*Originally Posted by Muzhik
The biggest reason for institutionalized antisemitism in Christianity has to do with St. Augustine, who started speculating that the Christian Church had replaced Israel; that the promises of G_D to Israel had been transferred to Christianity. Over the centuries this developed into Replacement Theology, which was never part of Catholic doctrine but did have a significant influence over the centuries. It began to fall out of favor after WW2, and it was implicitly rejected by Pope JP2.

It’s going to take some time. I’m preparing my apartment for my daughter to move in for college. One source you can check out is “Salvation is From the Jews” by Roy H. Schoeman. I also was mistaken when I said JP2 **implicitly **rejected replacement theology. During his visit to the Synagogue of Rome on April 13, 1986, he **explicitly **rejected it when he said, “*t is not lawful to say that the Jews are repudiated…the Jews are beloved of God, who has called them with an irrevocable calling.”

<><*

 

[Muzhik]

belgianwaffles9, Shalom! What you are preaching is Replacement Theology. It has influenced Roman Catholic theology but was never part of dogma, and has now been rejected by the great majority of RC theologians. Jesus was/is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant; however, His Church has not replaced the Jews. The promises that HaShem (The Lord G_D) made to His people Israel will be kept to His People.

<><

 

[Valke2]

I’m sorry, but you forgot to answer the second part of the question you were asked:
Would you, under any circumstances, say “Oh, well, it was our own fault”, if someone decided to feed a fire with the Torah (or Mishna and Talmud for that matter)?

It’s an impossible question to answer because the scenario would never happen. I’m suppose to imagine Jews going into a Christian or Muslim neighborhood and distributing Torah scrolls? For openers, it is against our law for a nonjew to even touch the Torah scroll.

However, if we distributed Torah in book form, which is how you would purchase one in a Borders book store for example, and they were burned out of protest for our trying to force our religion on them, I would say “Oh well, it was our own fault.”