Supreme Court Ruling on Same Sex Marriage

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“discrimination” is synonymous with “discernment,” :confused: :confused:
I’m really confused by now , are you saying it’s ok to discriminate people because of … :confused:
No it is not OK to discriminate against people. I am saying that it is proper and sometimes necessary to discriminate against behavior.
Secondly , my opinion about homosexuals (in general) ,
is slightly different than/from/to yours , that’s absolutely for sure .
That’s OK. Everyone has opinions. But just because yours is different than mine does not make it right…🙂
 
Or perhaps the State just used to be a little smarter about encouraging a stable society of citizens to go out there and procreate - i.e., protecting its interests and providing for the best possible environment for prosperity…? Ditto every government since the beginning of civilization.
Not really. As previously noted, the State has never given a fig about whether or not marriage license applicants will have children and offers the same incentives for having children to single parents.
I thought you just said the State didn’t care about why people got married? If you ask me the State is starting to sound pretty gosh darn confused…are condoms mandatory for gays performing sodomy now too? Is this not a compelling public health interest?
The State doesn’t care about why people get married and it doesn’t ask. Marriage and its legal trappings provide incentive to encourage the public health benefits of long term monogamous relationships. Contraceptive programs would also be a great way for the State to promote the public health particularly for heterosexuals when it comes to STIs.
 
No it is not OK to discriminate against people. I am saying that it is proper and sometimes necessary to discriminate against behavior.
In cases such as child molesting , kidnapping , rape , deceivers , imposters
i do understand why people try to avoid them .
That’s OK. Everyone has opinions. But just because yours is different than mine does not make it right…🙂
Agree 🙂
We both could learn from eachother , as long we’re not killing eachother 😉
 
D
“discrimination” is synonymous with “discernment,” :confused: :confused:
I’m really confused by now , are you saying it’s ok to discriminate people because of … :confused:

Secondly , my opinion about homosexuals (in general) ,
is slightly different than/from/to yours , that’s absolutely for sure .
People discriminate all of the time, and laws by their very nature discriminate.

Discrimination is not always a sin.
 
Not really. As previously noted, the State has never given a fig about whether or not marriage license applicants will have children and offers the same incentives for having children to single parents.
This is completely untrue. A fundamental interest of every State that has ever existed has been the welfare of its citizens. If you don’t have stable procreating citizens you don’t have a State that will continue, get its taxes, defend the borders, conquer other nations, etc. The fact that this is such a no-brainer could be why it is slipping under the radar a little here (or more likely just being pushed under).
The State doesn’t care about why people get married and it doesn’t ask. Marriage and its legal trappings provide incentive to encourage the public health benefits of long term monogamous relationships. Contraceptive programs would also be a great way for the State to promote the public health particularly for heterosexuals when it comes to STIs.
Again, this is surreal, it really is. Promoting public health IS a compelling state interest. Marriage between a man and a woman is not. Ok, where do we stand on the elimination of the terminally ill, Downs Syndrome victims, AIDS victims, the elderly, the homeless, the homosexuals, etc. Do you realize what a boon this would be for public health? What resources this would free up to use in more productive ways, for the young? - clean energy research? Oh and there is also population control - mandatory? 2 children per household? We could greatly enhance quality of life AND public health.
 
This is completely untrue. A fundamental interest of every State that has ever existed has been the welfare of its citizens. If you don’t have stable procreating citizens you don’t have a State that will continue, get its taxes, defend the borders, conquer other nations, etc. The fact that this is such a no-brainer could be why it is slipping under the radar a little here (or more likely just being pushed under).
That may be an interest of the State, but the State has never used marriage licenses as a means of encouraging that behavior. It has never asked or cared why any couple applied for a license. It has never cared whether or not a married couple intends to or ever does have children. It has never tied any incentives for having children to marriage licenses. The States own actions and actions throughout this nation’s history are in total contradiction with what you allege to be true.
 
About a third of all child sex abuse cases involve men molesting boys–and in one study, 86% of such men identified themselves as homosexual or bisexual. Try as they might, gays and lesbians can’t shrug off the link. This is a homosexual problem
Guessing your unnamed source is “Erickson et al. (1988). Behavior patterns of child molesters. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 17, 77-86”?
 
That may be an interest of the State, but the State has never used marriage licenses as a means of encouraging that behavior. It has never asked or cared why any couple applied for a license. It has never cared whether or not a married couple intends to or ever does have children. It has never tied any incentives for having children to marriage licenses. The States own actions and actions throughout this nation’s history are in total contradiction with what you allege to be true.
You still haven’t provided a compelling reason why the State has been involved in licensing marriages to begin with, if it has nothing to do with the possibility marriages have for creating and caring for new citizens.

Why has the State taken absolutely NO interest in licensing relationships, in general, and, in particular, gay relationships for the past 4000+ years if it has a compelling interest in promoting “monogamous” relationships?

And why would monogamous relationships consisting of two persons, in particular, be of special interest to the state? Why not threes or fours? Why not solitary individuals?
 
That may be an interest of the State, but the State has never used marriage licenses as a means of encouraging that behavior.
Of course it has…

By the mere issuance of licenses the State is supporting, condoning and protecting the institution of marriage. As well it should. The “behavior” expected within the institution of marriage is necessary for the continuation of society and the State. Therefore the State IS, in fact, encouraging the “behavior” expected in marriage.
It has never asked or cared why any couple applied for a license
.

By refusing to grant licenses in some cases…the State cares very much
It has never cared whether or not a married couple intends to or ever does have children.
Since procreation is the purpose of marriage it is expected that the couple will have children. There is no need for the State to assume otherwise.
It has never tied any incentives for having children to marriage licenses.
True, but it has provided considerable tax incentives for families.
 
You still haven’t provided a compelling reason why the State has been involved in licensing marriages to begin with, if it has nothing to do with the possibility marriages have for creating and caring for new citizens.

I’ve probably stated it about half a dozen times. Read my last several posts.

QUOTE=Peter Plato;13112888]Why has the State taken absolutely NO interest in licensing relationships, in general, and, in particular, gay relationships for the past 4000+ years if it has a compelling interest in promoting “monogamous” relationships?
The State does take an interest in licensing relationships in general. That’s what domestic partnerships are. Your second question is a strange one and why stop there? Institutions like slavery, segregation, institutionalized subjugation of women, and institutionalized socio-economic stratification had been around since the dawn of human civilization. Tradition does not make right.
 
About a third of all child sex abuse cases involve men molesting boys–and in one study, 86% of such men identified themselves as homosexual or bisexual. Try as they might, gays and lesbians can’t shrug off the link. This is a homosexual problem
You are totally wrong.
According to Dr. Fred Berlin, a Johns Hopkins University professor who founded the National Institute for the Study, Prevention and Treatment of Sexual Trauma in Baltimore, Md., pedophilia is a distinct sexual orientation marked by persistent, sometimes exclusive, attraction to prepubescent children.
The simplest understanding of this, and a very correct understanding is to see that sexual abuse isn’t about sexual orientation or sexual attraction. Unattractive people are often victims of sexual abuse and sexual violence. Sexual violence and abuse is about power, domination, and control. It’s not about sexual attraction.

Fischer cites a study that says 86% of men who molest boys identify themselves as gay or bisexual with no breakdown of gay or bisexual perpetrators. The study Fischer references is strongly criticized by the consensus of experts in this field. The paper he’s referencing is Erickson et al. (1988). Behavior patterns of child molesters. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 17, 77-86. The paper does claim in passing that 86% of molesters of boys identified as gay or bisexual, but the paper does not describe how this data was gathered, and how it ascertained the sexual orientation of these men.

“But wait!” You might begin. “If men molest boys aren’t they necessarily gay?” The answer is no. Because , for one, sexual orientation isn’t about behavior alone. For example, when Governor Jim McGreevy feigned heterosexuality most of his life and formed a heterosexual family, and presumably engaged in heterosexual behavior was he a heterosexual all of that time? Or was he simply a closeted gay man? Behavior isn’t always consistent with sexual orientation and attraction.

Pedophiles are attracted, primarily, to children. The sex of those children matter less than that they are children. The sex of victim has more to do with access than sexual orientation.

The US Catholic Bishops commissioned a study on priestly child sex abuse from John Jay College. John Jay researcher Margaret Smith reported back to the Bishops on early findings from their study. From the USA Today:
We do not find a connection between homosexual identity and the increased likelihood of subsequent abuse from the data that we have right now … It’s important to separate the sexual identity and the behavior. Someone can commit sexual acts that might be of a homosexual nature but not have a homosexual identity.
From the same article:
In the book Mental Disorders of the New Millennium (2006), author and psychology professor Thomas Plante writes:
Although the majority of clergy abuse victims are males, homosexuality cannot be blamed. First, many of the pedophile priests report that they are not homosexual. This is also true of many non-clergy sex offenders who victimize boys. Many report that they target boys for a variety of reasons that include easier access to boys … pregnancy fears with female victims … homosexuals in general have not been found to be more likely to commit sexual crimes against minors compared to heterosexuals. Sexual orientation is not predictive of sex crimes
Even Pope Benedict XVI, not exactly a liberal gay rights activist, has said the same thing:
Perhaps this is why Pope Benedict XVI himself, en route to the United States for his visit in 2008, responded this way to a question about the abuse crisis: “I do not wish to talk about homosexuality, but about pedophilia, which is a different thing.”
This point has been established by mainstream social scientists for over 30 years:
Typologies of offenders have often included a distinction between those with an enduring primary preference for children as sexual partners and those who have established age-appropriate relationships but become sexually involved with children under unusual circumstances of extreme stress. Perpetrators in the first category – those with a more or less exclusive interest in children – have been labeled fixated. Fixation means “a temporary or permanent arrestment of psychological maturation resulting from unresolved formative issues which persist and underlie the organization of subsequent phases of development” (Groth & Birnbaum, 1978, p. 176). Many clinicians view fixated offenders as being “stuck” at an early stage of psychological development.
By contrast, other molesters are described as regressed. Regression is “a temporary or permanent appearance of primitive behavior after more mature forms of expression had been attained, regardless of whether the immature behavior was actually manifested earlier in the individual’s development” (Groth & Birnbaum, 1978, p. 177). Regressed offenders have developed an adult sexual orientation but under certain conditions (such as extreme stress) they return to an earlier, less mature psychological state and engage in sexual contact with children.
Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as “fixated;” 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that “in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women…There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males…”
 
There have been repeated attempts to link homosexual orientation with pedophilia. Each attempt has failed miserably. They have even gone as far as to test the arousal patterns of gay men and compared them to the arousal patterns of straight men:
In yet another approach to studying adult sexual attraction to children, some Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal, changes in the subjects’ penis volume were monitored while they watched the slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to female children (Freund et al., 1989).
In other words, gay men are no more likely to be sexually attracted to children than straight men.

Another important thing to understand about a pedophile is his inability to gender differentiate when it comes to sexual arousal. Those who prefer mature partners have arousal patterns that demonstrate gender differentiation consistent with preferred gender, pedophiles have difficulty with this:
Pedophiles differentiated erotically between females and males less than males who erotically preferred physically mature partners.
It is important to note that studies of bisexual males show that bisexuals gender differentiate in their arousal patterns. The only group that has difficulty gender differentiating with arousal patterns are pedophiles.
 
The State does take an interest in licensing relationships in general. That’s what domestic partnerships are.
It isn’t clear that domestic partnerships are “licensed,” except to accommodate the fallout from no fault divorce and a subsequent clamour to retain benefits or have them granted to those not willing to formalize their “partnership.”

This sums up nicely the ideology behind what is currently happening…

patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2015/07/ayn-rand-fairy-godmother-of-sexual-orientation.html
…that general, impersonal object that serves as the guiding principle of modern sexuality alongside homo, hetero, gyno, pan, poly, skolio — values of the ego, held as an identity long before any contact with another person, so that our attraction to an actual, living, breathing human being can only be masturbatory, a relation that affirms the values we already hold, stroking our ego, clicking with our pre-set view towards the world (which is thought to be good and meaningful and worthy of affirmation for the mere fact of being ours). Is this not how we speak? Do we not all have a right to seek “self-fulfilling” relations?
An ontology of sexuality that roots attraction in the self and its identity may wear the garb of lefty, millennial hipsterdom, but its equally fit with a pathological, righty, uber-capitalistic vision of the Cosmos. This seem to be why, despite the obvious leftward shuffle, and the equally obvious and earnest attempts to eradicate it from existence, we still speak a language of rape. Rape is a reasonable conclusion of the perverse premises of a sexology of self-fulfillment. Indeed, no one is more self-fulfilled, in the most horrible sense possible, than the rapist, who takes Randian rhetoric to its logical ends, and see in the other person no life outside of the values and desires which he already holds.
That no one would actually advocate or desire this vision of human sexuality is obvious, but we have grown far too timid to check the growing academic behemoth that is our discourse on sexuality with what people actually want — to be loved, cherished, to give of ourselves, and to be called forth into love, rather than to eternally project our idiotic values onto the Cosmos, until every other being is made in our image and likeness.
 
did you know Andrew Sullivan, a conservative Roman Catholic, was the first person to ever write an article in a national newspaper calling for gay marriage? you should leave the Christian Right if you’re against gay marriage cause they are the reason gay marriage advocacy is where it is today. and by the way, Aquinas’ natural law theory isn’t a rulebook. he never saw it as one, nor did he indicate that it was one.
 
did you know Andrew Sullivan, a conservative Roman Catholic, was the first person to ever write an article in a national newspaper calling for gay marriage? you should leave the Christian Right if you’re against gay marriage cause they are the reason gay marriage advocacy is where it is today. and by the way, Aquinas’ natural law theory isn’t a rulebook. he never saw it as one, nor did he indicate that it was one.
There are a few things that strike me as odd about what you’re saying.

Is there a membership card for the Christian Right? Is it an organization where people pledge to all agree with things random other people say?

What constitutes being “against gay marriage”? Is it acknowledging that God has told us what marriage is most specifically and ruled out same sex relationships as marriages? That isn’t really something that is factional or restricted to a lunatic fringe. It is what it is what it is.

Gay marriage does not religiously exist as a marriage, in that sense it is an impossibility - however it is an attempt to: “deliberately refuse to accept His mercy by repenting, reject the forgiveness of sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.” and “Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss”.

It would make no difference in the grand scheme of things if the particular sin were adultery, theft, lying, masturbation, covetousness or anything else. Cook up a mock religious ceremony where you swear to go to the grave happy about that sin, and it is much more serious than the personal weaknesses and transgressions, sexual or otherwise, which I am sure we all struggle with and have to answer for.
 
There have been repeated attempts to link homosexual orientation with pedophilia. Each attempt has failed miserably. They have even gone as far as to test the arousal patterns of gay men and compared them to the arousal patterns of straight men:

In other words, gay men are no more likely to be sexually attracted to children than straight men.

Another important thing to understand about a pedophile is his inability to gender differentiate when it comes to sexual arousal. Those who prefer mature partners have arousal patterns that demonstrate gender differentiation consistent with preferred gender, pedophiles have difficulty with this:

It is important to note that studies of bisexual males show that bisexuals gender differentiate in their arousal patterns. The only group that has difficulty gender differentiating with arousal patterns are pedophiles.
This is what is called “moving the goalposts”. “Pedophile” - while having a strict definition of a person attracted to prepubescent children - is also commonly used as a synonym for Ephebophile, or simply for anyone who is attracted to someone under the age of consent. Given the prevalence of the “twink” ideal among homosexual men, coupled with the efforts to lower the age of consent, it seems that the homosexual male community has no problem with ephebophilia. True pedophilia is a thankfully rare phenomenon when compared with what people commonly call pedophilia - such as in the case of the “Pedophile priests” whose victims were overwhelmingly boys who were not prepubescent. It wasn’t a pedophile problem that the Church had - it was a homosexual problem.
 
There are a few things that strike me as odd about what you’re saying.

Is there a membership card for the Christian Right? Is it an organization where people pledge to all agree with things random other people say?
I don’t know if there’s a membership card for the Christian Right, but there’s definitely a hive-mind mentality.
What constitutes being “against gay marriage”? Is it acknowledging that God has told us what marriage is most specifically and ruled out same sex relationships as marriages? That isn’t really something that is factional or restricted to a lunatic fringe. It is what it is what it is.
Do you feel it is possible to be “against gay marriage” in a theological/philosophical sense, yet accept it as a legal reality–as it currently is?
 
I don’t know if there’s a membership card for the Christian Right, but there’s definitely a hive-mind mentality.
This is rich, actually.

Speaking of “hive-mind,” try to criticize SSM in a public forum and watch the stingers come out in protection of the queens.
Do you feel it is possible to be “against gay marriage” in a theological/philosophical sense, yet accept it as a legal reality–as it currently is?
Only if “legal reality” has absolutely no basis in or connection with reality. How would it be possible to accept something if your best philosophical and theological outlook views it as determinably false?

Who cares if it is true as long as it is legal. Is that what you are promoting?
 
This is rich, actually.

Speaking of “hive-mind,” try to criticize SSM in a public forum and watch the stingers come out in protection of the queens.

Only if “legal reality” has absolutely no basis in or connection with reality. How would it be possible to accept something if your best philosophical and theological outlook views it as determinably false?

Who cares if it is true as long as it is legal. Is that what you are promoting?
Liquor and beer are legal and the Baptists see it as a serious sin. But it’s legal none the less. Caesars laws don’t seem to shake their faith…so why should it make a difference to you? The Church doesn’t allow SSM…and that is that. B
 
That may be an interest of the State, but the State has never used marriage licenses as a means of encouraging that behavior. It has never asked or cared why any couple applied for a license. It has never cared whether or not a married couple intends to or ever does have children. It has never tied any incentives for having children to marriage licenses. The States own actions and actions throughout this nation’s history are in total contradiction with what you allege to be true.
The reason the State issues marriage licenses is to make families more stable, and to ensure there is a way to trace parentage for children, plus to protect wives and children if husbands should try to leave them destitute.
 
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