Supreme Court Ruling on Same Sex Marriage

[Vatican2Rocks]

Originally Posted by KSU:
That’s gibberish; not even intelligible. Why do you insist on speaking in some kind of code? Are you ashamed to come right out and say what you mean?

Is that supposed to distract me from pinning you down? You don’t get to speak gibberish as though that constitutes answers to questions. Are you ashamed to give a straight answer?

maybe you are too tired to understand right now
maybe reread what you wrote and then what i wrote with a fresh mind at a better time

 

[Vatican2Rocks]

If you someday wish to marry a person of the same sex, do you believe it is OK because your will is supreme?

Please quote the passage in the book that confirms it.

I am heterosexual and i believe the same rules of attraction apply to homosexuals
this book was written in 1944, people didn’t even conceive of homosexuals getting together let alone married back then.

if you don’t believe me about my will being supreme in regards to a particular marital partner then ask a priest. here is the link for the catechism citations

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13120216#post13120216

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13138670#post13138670

 

[Vatican2Rocks]

Read each chapter in the order seen here as each chapter builds upon the next. it may seem redundant or self explanatory to you at first but the gems are buried within the material which you have to mine out for yourself. you won’t find the secret to the truth until you read this book completely.

holyspiritinteractive.net/youth/chastity/
True Friendship
General Sex Attraction
Personal Sex Attraction
Physical Sex Attraction
Choice of a Marriage Partner
Choice of a Marriage Partner - II: Moral Qualifications
Choice of a Marriage Partner - III: Agreement
Choice of a Marriage Partner - IV: Self-Sacrifice and Sex Attraction
Falling Out Of Love
The Divine Plan of Reproduction
The Meaning of Chastity
God’s Law of Chastity
Practical Moral Principles
Practical Moral Principles: II
Practical Moral Principles: III
Practical Moral Principles: IV
Practical Moral Principles: V
Some Practical Applications - Kissing and Embracing
Some Practical Applications - Reading
Some Practical Applications - Conversation
Some Practical Applications - Involuntary Sexual Stimulation
Some Practical Applications - Confession
The Beauty of Chastity

 

[KSU]

I am heterosexual and i believe the same rules of attraction apply to homosexuals
this book was written in 1944, people didn’t even conceive of homosexuals getting together let alone married back then.

Well, I’ll try again:
If two Catholic people of the same sex wish to marry, do you believe it should be OK with the Roman Catholic Church because a person’s will is supreme? Please say yes or no.

 

[Rau]

…I am heterosexual and i believe the same rules of attraction apply to homosexuals

To which rules are you referring?

 

[Vatican2Rocks]

Well, I’ll try again:
If two Catholic people of the same sex wish to marry, do you believe it should be OK with the Roman Catholic Church because a person’s will is supreme? Please say yes or no.

They don’t have to get married in the church. They can have a civil marriage in spite of the church. I think there might be homosexuals who are catholic who want to get married and i think it will be a long while before we see homosexuals marrying each other in the church. they don’t need the church to get married outside of it.

now i have a question for you: would it be a valid sacramental marriage for a homosexual to marry a heterosexual in the catholic church?

i say no it would not be valid.

 

[Vatican2Rocks]

To which rules are you referring?

bad choice of words…
principles of personal sexual attraction which you have zero control of.

 

[Rau]

would it be a valid sacramental marriage for a homosexual to marry a heterosexual in the catholic church?

i say no it would not be valid.

The marriage is presumed valid unless and until a tribunal determines it is not.

The two persons must comprise a man and a woman for the marriage to be valid. They must understand the nature of the sacrament and have no intent to misuse it. They must choose marriage freely and have full knowledge of factors relevant to their choice of spouse, and be free to marry. There must be no other impediments (refer canon law). It seems to me fairly unlikely that all of the above would be fulfilled in the scenario you propose. The scenario seems sufficiently unlikely that I would suspect some false motive underpins the marriage, thus calling into question their vows, and thus validity.

I know of one marriage where the husband experiences SSA (in common speak, he might be said to be bisexual). By all accounts he has a successful marriage, and posts here on CAF.

 

[Vatican2Rocks]

Well, I’ll try again:
If two Catholic people of the same sex wish to marry, do you believe it should be OK with the Roman Catholic Church because a person’s will is supreme? Please say yes or no.

I have this to add: I think it would be nice to allow catholics who are homosexual to marry each other in the church if the priest feels their relationship is sacramental. I think for our fellow catholics charity is required on both sides of the argument and not meanness. I think activism will not be helpful but rather normal friendship dialogue and letting fellow parishioners get to know the couple, it is likely they will have friends at church and make new ones too. …I know that the parties to this potential marriage in the church would be unable to force their will because even now the catholic church does not have to marry a couple that comes to them for marriage under shotgun wedding circumstances. this is a situation where the priest and community would have to know the homosexual couple and its going to take a long time for the church to declare the relationship to be sacramental. its going to be a long time and i wouldn’t hold out for it. the civil marriages will be proof enough in time. and they should not wait for the church to make up its mind. its going to be a long time and i really truly believe that the church is going to require proof of a sacramental nature in these marriages before the church would agree to extending the sacrament to catholic homosexuals.

 

[KSU]

Originally Posted by KSU:
If two Catholic people of the same sex wish to marry, do you believe it should be OK with the Roman Catholic Church because a person’s will is supreme? Please say yes or no.

They don’t have to get married in the church. They can have a civil marriage in spite of the church. I think there might be homosexuals who are catholic who want to get married and i think it will be a long while before we see homosexuals marrying each other in the church. they don’t need the church to get married outside of it.

Thanks for the straight answer.

now i have a question for you: would it be a valid sacramental marriage for a homosexual to marry a heterosexual in the catholic church?

i say no it would not be valid.

I agree with Rau in his post #583..

 

[Vatican2Rocks]

The marriage is presumed valid unless and until a tribunal determines it is not.

The two persons must comprise a man and a woman for the marriage to be valid. They must understand the nature of the sacrament and have no intent to misuse it. They must choose marriage freely and have full knowledge of factors relevant to their choice of spouse, and be free to marry. There must be no other impediments (refer canon law). It seems to me fairly unlikely that all of the above would be fulfilled in the scenario you propose. The scenario seems sufficiently unlikely that I would suspect some false motive underpins the marriage, thus calling into question their vows, and thus validity.

I know of one marriage where the husband experiences SSA (in common speak, he might be said to be bisexual). By all accounts he has a successful marriage, and posts here on CAF.

I guess we will have to wait and see then because i hold that the marriage is not valid. a heterosexual woman and homosexual man married to each other in my opinion is not valid. in my opinion there is a defect in the marriage and the church did not help matters by saying heterosexuals should agree to marry homosexuals. the church would be responsible for the error.

 

[Rau]

bad choice of words…
principles of personal sexual attraction which you have zero control of.

Perhaps, but so little is understood about what determines our attractions. While attractions may not be chosen, a decision to turn away from them is within our control.

However, there is clearly a misdirection when one man is sexually attracted to another. The progression to physical sexual attraction leads to the evident conclusion that the attraction is inconsistent with the bodies of the two persons. Something, evidently, is amiss. As the book you’ve referenced advises, Personal Sex Attractions are best turned back from when our reason shows they cannot lead appropriately, and it is best to take such a decision before it becomes more difficult.

 

[Rau]

I guess we will have to wait and see then because i hold that the marriage is not valid. a heterosexual woman and homosexual man married to each other in my opinion is not valid. in my opinion there is a defect in the marriage and the church did not help matters by saying heterosexuals should agree to marry homosexuals. the church would be responsible for the error.

In your opinion, what is the source of the invalidity ?

Can you provide a reference to a Church statement saying that “heterosexuals should agree to marry homosexuals”?

 

[Vatican2Rocks]

Perhaps, but so little is understood about what determines our attractions. While attractions may not be chosen, a decision to turn away from them is within our control.

However, there is clearly a misdirection when one man is sexually attracted to another. The progression to physical sexual attraction leads to the evident conclusion that the attraction is inconsistent with the bodies of the two persons. Something, evidently, is amiss. As the book you’ve referenced advises, Personal Sex Attractions are best turned back from when our reason shows they cannot lead appropriately, and it is best to take such a decision before it becomes more difficult.

This book’s first 4 chapters deals with the matter of personal sexual attraction
holyspiritinteractive.net/youth/chastity/

i don’t recall the book discussing same sex attraction though. i think you misunderstand what i mean by personal sexual attraction to a particular person. i don’t mean the actual act of sex or sexual activity of any kind. i am talking about basic attraction to a particular person, emphasis on particular.

i agree that it is not normal for people to be homosexuals yet even jesus acknowledged their existence in his day. they were present in alexander the great’s time as well. i blame it on genetics and that is something out of our control.

 

[Tomdstone]

I guess we will have to wait and see then because i hold that the marriage is not valid. a heterosexual woman and homosexual man married to each other in my opinion is not valid. in my opinion there is a defect in the marriage and the church did not help matters by saying heterosexuals should agree to marry homosexuals. the church would be responsible for the error.

There have been successful marriages where one of the partners had previous SS relationships.

 

[KSU]

I have this to add: I think it would be nice to allow catholics who are homosexual to marry each other in the church if the priest feels their relationship is sacramental. I think for our fellow catholics charity is required on both sides of the argument and not meanness. I think activism will not be helpful but rather normal friendship dialogue and letting fellow parishioners get to know the couple, it is likely they will have friends at church and make new ones too. …I know that the parties to this potential marriage in the church would be unable to force their will because even now the catholic church does not have to marry a couple that comes to them for marriage under shotgun wedding circumstances. this is a situation where the priest and community would have to know the homosexual couple and its going to take a long time for the church to declare the relationship to be sacramental. its going to be a long time and i wouldn’t hold out for it. the civil marriages will be proof enough in time. and they should not wait for the church to make up its mind. its going to be a long time and i really truly believe that the church is going to require proof of a sacramental nature in these marriages before the church would agree to extending the sacrament to catholic homosexuals.

As a professed Catholic, you already know that no Pope has the authority to Change Church doctrine. So, why torture yourself like this? If there is going to be a happy change for you concerning this issue, it will be that the person you are so concerned about will ask for and get the grace to change. I hear that it happens: couragerc.org/

 

[Rau]

This book’s first 4 chapters deals with the matter of personal sexual attraction
holyspiritinteractive.net/youth/chastity/

i don’t recall the book discussing same sex attraction though. i think you misunderstand what i mean by personal sexual attraction to a particular person. i don’t mean the actual act of sex or sexual activity of any kind. i am talking about basic attraction to a particular person, emphasis on particular.

i agree that it is not normal for people to be homosexuals yet even jesus acknowledged their existence in his day. they were present in alexander the great’s time as well. i blame it on genetics and that is something out of our control.

I’ve read the relevant sections of the book and don’t misunderstand you.

 

[Vatican2Rocks]

In your opinion, what is the source of the invalidity ?

Can you provide a reference to a Church statement saying that “heterosexuals should agree to marry homosexuals”?

I am of the firm belief that a person who is heterosexual should not be married to a homosexual because they are not sexually attracted to each other. I believe homosexuality is hereditary.

 

[Rau]

I am of the firm belief that a person who is heterosexual should not be married to a homosexual because they are not sexually attracted to each other. I believe homosexuality is hereditary.

OK. But what would be the basis for viewing such a marriage as invalid? (I’m not disagreeing that it may be invalid, just wanting to know the basis as you see it.)

And, can you provide a reference to a Church statement saying that “heterosexuals should agree to marry homosexuals”, which you’ve claimed was said.

 

[Rau]

…I believe homosexuality is hereditary.

Is this a personal insight of yours, or do you believe there is any scientific evidence for this view that homosexuality runs in families (ie. Is hereditary)?