Surah 5:47

[mercytruth]

hamba2han,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I am somewhat skittish about graven images, which probably is traceable to some Jewish heritage. For myself, photographs, or paintings of human beings are not much different that graven images. So, it does seem to really depend on whether a person is respecting, or honoring a living human being, or a deceased human being through such images, or actually worshipping that person as god.

As far as the adultery quotation, it is a spiritual quotation and worthy of mention. Thank you.

Would you be able to quote something in the Koran where one is obliged to love one’s enemies? Where one is obliged to bless those who curse you? Where one is obliged to pray for those who persecute you?

Would you be able to quote something in the Koran where it is said, that one can not serve both the Creator, and mammon (wealth).

Salam Alaikom

 

[dolphinlove]

Here is a piece of advice for Christians who might have a bone to pick with Muslims with regard to our differing beliefs i.e. let us first concentrate on the things that we do have in common and do not disagree with, specifically the Ten Commandments.

Muslims believe that Christians (and also Jews) are headed for the Hell-fire because they are flagrantly ignoring and violating much of the Ten Commandments which was handed down to them by God Almighty Himself.

Surah 5:47 of the Qur’an is really a manifestation of the Lord’s displeasure with Christians who have violated the Ten Commandments and which has alas, led them to go far astray in their faith.

Indeed, if you examine every instance where the Qur’an and the Sunnah admonishes the People of the Book, then it is just so obvious that it has been brought about by their gross and willful disregard of the various aspects of the Ten Commandments.

And so, instead of nitpicking about various verses in the Qur’an, let us examine whether or not Christians have willfully disregarded and violated vital aspects of the Ten Commandments since they are indeed found in the Qur’an (with the exception of the Sabbath) and is therefore common ground for discussion between Christians and Muslims.

And now lets see how islam breaks every command shall we!

1)Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Muslim pray to the kabaa rock in saudi arabia, therefore they do idol worshipping.

1. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
   Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

A picture tells a thousand words:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2393046900_6b40ba2274.jpg

and so on and so on…

 

[dolphinlove]

This is really an extension to a post of mine in an earlier thread and is an example of how verse 5:47 in the Qur’an explains the disobedience of Christians caused by them not judging based on what has been revealed to them as recorded in their own scriptures on whether or not something is good or evil

Let us examine what the Second Commandment says in the Book of Leviticus:

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.” … Leviticus 26:1

Does anyone see the word “worship” in this verse of the Bible?

The Second Commandment is warning against ‘making’ any graven images, ‘erecting’ them and ‘bowing down’ to these statues and pictures.

It does NOT explicitly warn against worshiping statues… but it does indeed warn against either making and/or erecting and/or bowing down to them.

http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg

In the immortal words of Benjamin Netanyahu – “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then what is it?”

And so, if something looks like a graven image, then making that object, erecting that object and bowing down to that object is very likely to be a most serious and major sin as stated in the Second Commandment… and committing a sin does NOT in any way, shape or form bring anyone closer to God.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2393046900_6b40ba2274.jpg

And what does the above picture represent, muslims worshipping an idol!!!

As you put it hammy,
It does NOT explicitly warn against worshiping statues… but it does indeed warn against either making and/or erecting and/or bowing down to them.

That is just want your muslim breatheran are doing in the above photo. They made, they erected and are BOWING down to the kabaa - this is definately IDOL worshipping.

 

[mercytruth]

dolphinlove,

Please, one can make a point without mocking another human being, who is made in the image of God. This is not the way of Jesus.

 

[hamba2han]

hamba2han,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I am somewhat skittish about graven images, which probably is traceable to some Jewish heritage. For myself, photographs, or paintings of human beings are not much different that graven images. So, it does seem to really depend on whether a person is respecting, or honoring a living human being, or a deceased human being through such images, or actually worshipping that person as god.

As far as the adultery quotation, it is a spiritual quotation and worthy of mention. Thank you.

Would you be able to quote something in the Koran where one is obliged to love one’s enemies? Where one is obliged to bless those who curse you? Where one is obliged to pray for those who persecute you?

Would you be able to quote something in the Koran where it is said, that one can not serve both the Creator, and mammon (wealth).

Salam Alaikom

I am not aware of any verse in the Qur’an which actually commands believers to forgive their enemies but there are verses which highly encourages the practice of forgiving others and doing good towards them.

"Pardon them and overlook - Allah loves those who do good" (Qur’an 5:13)

**“Those who control their anger and are forgiving towards people; Allah loves the good.” ** (Qur’an 3:134)

The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel (the evil) with one which is better (i.e. Allâh ordered the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly), then verily! he, between whom and you there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a close friend.
But none is granted it (the above quality) except those who are patient, and none is granted it except the owner of the great portion (of the happiness in the Hereafter i.e. Paradise and in this world of a high moral character). (Qur’an 41:34-35)

And as for what the Qur’an says about serving more than one master:

Allah sets forth an example: There is a slave in whom are (several) partners differing with one another, and there is another slave wholly owned by one man. Are the two alike in condition? (All) praise is due to Allah. Nay! most of them do not know. (Qur’an 39:29)

 

[hamba2han]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2393046900_6b40ba2274.jpg

And what does the above picture represent, muslims worshipping an idol!!!

As you put it hammy,
It does NOT explicitly warn against worshiping statues… but it does indeed warn against either making and/or erecting and/or bowing down to them.

That is just want your muslim breatheran are doing in the above photo. They made, they erected and are BOWING down to the kabaa - this is definately IDOL worshipping.

I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. … (Psalm 138:2)

 

[meltzerboy]

I am one Catholic, who believes that the Creator of all has a special love for sincere, humble Muslims of the Koran, and also for sincere, humble Jews of the Tanach, for they are the children of Abraham and of promise. How this all works out in the judgment, is not mine to know.

Although many would disagree, calling this moral relativism, I have these same thoughts, and would even extend them to other sincere, humble people apart from the children of Abraham.

 

[mercytruth]

I am not aware of any verse in the Qur’an which actually commands believers to forgive their enemies but there are verses which highly encourages the practice of forgiving others and doing good towards them.

"Pardon them and overlook - Allah loves those who do good" (Qur’an 5:13)

**“Those who control their anger and are forgiving towards people; Allah loves the good.” ** (Qur’an 3:134)

The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel (the evil) with one which is better (i.e. Allâh ordered the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly), then verily! he, between whom and you there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a close friend.
But none is granted it (the above quality) except those who are patient, and none is granted it except the owner of the great portion (of the happiness in the Hereafter i.e. Paradise and in this world of a high moral character). (Qur’an 41:34-35)

And as for what the Qur’an says about serving more than one master:

Allah sets forth an example: There is a slave in whom are (several) partners differing with one another, and there is another slave wholly owned by one man. Are the two alike in condition? (All) praise is due to Allah. Nay! most of them do not know. (Qur’an 39:29)

hamba2han,

"Those who control their anger and are forgiving towards people; Allah loves the good and,

**‘Patience at the time of anger, and excusing those who treat us badly’ **are very similar to the teachings of Jesus.

Is there anything in the Koran that warns against the accumulation of wealth?

Also, if you would, is there anything in the Koran which states that the ten commandments will be written on our hearts as it says in Jeremiah 31:31-34?

Salam Aleicham

 

[mercytruth]

Although many would disagree, calling this moral relativism, I have these same thoughts, and would even extend them to other sincere, humble people apart from the children of Abraham.

Well, monotheism seems to be the base line from my understanding, but someone who lives according to their conscience in accordance with the moral law of God, I would not judge either.

Shalom.

 

[meltzerboy]

Here is a piece of advice for Christians who might have a bone to pick with Muslims with regard to our differing beliefs i.e. let us first concentrate on the things that we do have in common and do not disagree with, specifically the Ten Commandments.

Muslims believe that Christians (and also Jews) are headed for the Hell-fire because they are flagrantly ignoring and violating much of the Ten Commandments which was handed down to them by God Almighty Himself.

Surah 5:47 of the Qur’an is really a manifestation of the Lord’s displeasure with Christians who have violated the Ten Commandments and which has alas, led them to go far astray in their faith.

Indeed, if you examine every instance where the Qur’an and the Sunnah admonishes the People of the Book, then it is just so obvious that it has been brought about by their gross and willful disregard of the various aspects of the Ten Commandments.

And so, instead of nitpicking about various verses in the Qur’an, let us examine whether or not Christians have willfully disregarded and violated vital aspects of the Ten Commandments since they are indeed found in the Qur’an (with the exception of the Sabbath) and is therefore common ground for discussion between Christians and Muslims.

In which ways do Muslims believe the Jews are violating the Ten Commandments?

And another question (perhaps a new thread): Does Islam believe the Jews were given the Torah–in incorruptible form, at first–from G-d, together with the Ten Commandments? I would assume not the Oral Law as well.

 

[Sam_777]

dolphinlove;9140358:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2393046900_6b40ba2274.jpg

And what does the above picture represent, muslims worshipping an idol!!!

As you put it hammy,
It does NOT explicitly warn against worshiping statues… but it does indeed warn against either making and/or erecting and/or bowing down to them.

That is just want your muslim breatheran are doing in the above photo. They made, they erected and are BOWING down to the kabaa - this is definately IDOL worshipping.


I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. … (Psalm 138:2)

Hey Hamba , Kaaba in Islam is NOT considered as a TEMPLE !!! try to find another workaround…

 

[hamba2han]

hamba2han,

"Those who control their anger and are forgiving towards people; Allah loves the good and,

**‘Patience at the time of anger, and excusing those who treat us badly’ **are very similar to the teachings of Jesus.

Is there anything in the Koran that warns against the accumulation of wealth?

Also, if you would, is there anything in the Koran which states that the ten commandments will be written on our hearts as it says in Jeremiah 31:31-34?

Salam Aleicham

… Islam is not against any material pursuit and neither does it opposes the accumulation of wealth. The only caution Islam puts forward is the danger of obsessive preoccupation in accumulating and conglomerating wealth either in the individual or in the societal and governmental level to the extent sidelining the most essential parts of a person’s self and spirituality. Without sufficient spiritual defense, man will easily be deluded by the deception of wealth…

The above is an excerpt of an informative essay explaining ‘The Philosophy of Wealth in Islam’.

And as for the Ten Commandments being written in our hearts, I am not aware of any such teachings found in the Qur’an nor in the Sunnah.

 

[mercytruth]

hamb2han,

Thankyou for responding to my questions. ‘The Philosophy of Wealth in Islam’ is very good. Just one quote that I woud certainly agree: Man’s own desire and greediness has become his new God while the phantom of his rapacity and selfishness turns out to be his new religion.

Now for the difficult question:

If the Koran says that Isa is a prophet, (and will he not come as judge also?), then as a Muslim are you required to follow the teachings of Isa that are not in the Koran, but are recorded in the gospels?

Salam Aleicham

 

[hamba2han]

In which ways do Muslims believe the Jews are violating the Ten Commandments?

And another question (perhaps a new thread): Does Islam believe the Jews were given the Torah–in incorruptible form, at first–from G-d, together with the Ten Commandments? I would assume not the Oral Law as well.

The Qur’an declares that Jews and Christians have taken their own rabbis and monks as their lords – “They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!” … (At-Tawbe Surah, 9:31)

When Adiy Bin Hatem, who converted to Islam from Christianity, said to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), “The Messenger of Allah! We did not take them as our Lord”, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) made this explanation: “They made those unlawful which Allah declared lawful and lawful which Allah declared unlawful, and you obeyed them. That is taking them as lords.” One need not necessarily call something “lord” in order to have it as his lord.

To elaborate, an example of how Jews have made their rabbis as their lords concerns the matter of usury.

“For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah’s Way;- That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men’s substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.” … [Al-Qur’an, Sûrah al-Nisâ’:160 & 161]

The Jews are following and obeying their rabbis who have made the taking of usury from Gentiles lawful and so they have made their rabbis as their lords despite the fact that Allah has absolutely and strictly prohibited the taking of usury from any source.

Taking usury is an extremely grave sin in Islam and so this brazen act of declaring that the taking of usury from Gentiles is lawful for Jews is just one small example of how the Jews have earned the wrath of the Lord.

Another example of the Ten Commandments being violated concerns the Sabbath which many Jews as well as Christians do not strictly adhere to considering the numerous business, commercial and other such activities which are carried out on that day.

As for the Taurat, the Qur’an has this to say:

Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers. … (Qur’an 5:44).

The original Taurat was indeed pure but like the Injeel, it no longer exists in it’s pure form.

 

[mercytruth]

hamba2han,

When Mohammed received his revelation of the Koran certain facts were not evident then, as they are today.

First, the Dead Sea Scrolls of the Tanakh which date B.C. are practically identical to what the Jewish people have in their possesion today.

Secondly, at the time of Mohammed there were many gnostic sects which were misinterpreting and changing the ‘Injeel’. These gnostic heresies may have been prevalent in the region where Mohammed was born and raised.

From my own small research into the early writings of the Christian fathers of the faith, one can reconstruct the writings of the ‘Injeel’ to early to mid 2nd century, maybe 100 years after the discples of Jesus Christ.

So the ‘impurity’ of the Taurat and the Injeel of which the Koran speaks, may have more to do with the various interpretations, commentaries, and heresies that accompanied these scriptures, rather than the scriptures themselves.

Salam Aliecham

 

[hamba2han]

hamb2han,

Thankyou for responding to my questions. ‘The Philosophy of Wealth in Islam’ is very good. Just one quote that I woud certainly agree: Man’s own desire and greediness has become his new God while the phantom of his rapacity and selfishness turns out to be his new religion.

Now for the difficult question:

If the Koran says that Isa is a prophet, (and will he not come as judge also?), then as a Muslim are you required to follow the teachings of Isa that are not in the Koran, but are recorded in the gospels?

Salam Aleicham

Actually, it is not a difficult question to answer and this question is applicable not just to the Injeel and Taurat, it also applies to other ancient scriptures like the Bhagavad Gita as well.

Not all parts of earlier scriptures have been corrupted and they have indeed retained some of their profound truths which could have come only from Almighty God Himself.

The great news is that humankind has been given the Furqan i.e. the Criterion by which to filter out the corrupted segments of earlier scriptures from the profound truths that are undoubtedly found in them.

This Furqan is of course the noble Qur’an.

And so, if anything appears in earlier scriptures which is not found or seems to conflict with the Qur’an and also with the Sunnah, it is simply disregarded by Muslims.

 

[hamba2han]

Generally speaking, when it comes to matters of faith, knowledgeable Muslims will not particular care about individual or even group “opinions” and they instead will refer to the Qur’an and the Sunnah in order to obtain the definitive answers to questions concerning religious permissibility.

 

[Sparrowhawk1161]

Muslims believe the Gospel has been corrupt before the time of Mohammed but if they read the verse below:

“And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.” – Surah 5:47

How could God charge the people of the Gospel to judge if their Gospel was corrupt? I challenge any Muslim to justify this Surah…

I am Christian. But, being devil’s advocate, you see this. This is a fundimental point of view, looking at each word and not looking at the whole to see the meaning. So, I will be completely fundimental:

“Let the People of the Gospel judge.” That says that people can judge the Gospel, meaning that people can interpret it. Allah has “revealed” to his followers certain stuff.

“Whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, then it is those who are defiantly disobedient.” That’s the clicker.

If you do not take Allah’s words which are revealed to you and do not judge accordingly, then you are not doing his will, you are disobedient. So, you must find allah’s words or you are disobedient. If the words say, Let’s make everyone obey the laws of what allah has told us is right, if you do not do this, you are not doing his will!

On verse can change everything into life or ultimate destruction. If one verse is the ultimate aim, if someone wants that verse to be just that ultimate aim.

This verse says that if Allah teels you something… you have the right to do it…(yet, is it allah saying it or the devil? Or your own mind?) Are you sure that you are really doing what God wants of you in one verse or a paragragh. It’s called, “Taking it out of context.” It’s about taking verses without looking at thew whole meaning of what is being said…and many people do this.

Let’s take an example. Sorry I like using this one.

Saint Paul wrote to the Corinthians. It was a response to a letter he received from followers in Corinth. The were always asking questions about what they should be doing as folloowers of Christ because the Church was new and they had many questions. I love using this as the example…I am sorry.

The disciples in Corinth preached the “Good News” to a crowd. They gained any followers. Yet, some of them were women. This is where you must put history into the context to understand what Paul was saying because history shows us so much… more of a methodolical approach, but certainly puts things in perspective.

The disciples were upset that the women, who received the gospel that they told were so elated, that they danced in the streets. Ladies knowing they are saved from complete and utter destruction, decided to dance in gratitude to the Lord. Even David danced? So they did, too.

Who knows why, but the deciples of Christ were so upset about women danceing in the street and there inability to stop them they went to Paul.

Paul said…

This what is interesting… he says, Men should have their hair short, women their hair long and covered… unless they misbehave and you need to cover their hair with cloth… or if they step out of line…shave there heads. Women’s hair is the glory of man. Men’s hair is the gl;ory of Christ… so shave your head like monks…

What? Theologists look at that and wonder why is Paul going back to the OIld Testimant to say what should be needed when we are free from it.

In the end of that passage, Paul says, “Well, if there is any problem. It’s just the way things are…”

What?

Do you have any idea how many Fundamentalist Churches take the Word, “word for word?”

I don’t believe than people were comatosed when they wrote the “Word of God.” I think they wrote the, “Word of God,” under there own influence, brought about there culture and it was told by God this is, “Good.” It means we need to see the word of God as concepts not indicidual words.

Even though this is so, The verses from “Sarah” are there. But was the muslim person seeing that verse out of context with the rest of the writings. Or, whould the person look at everything… the whole writings… including the Old and New Testement?

The problem is in the translation. Muslims believe that the WOrd of God has been corrupted by many translations. The Karan is a version of the Bible they feel is more true…and Mahamid has found this and warned them of this and has given them the best version of the Bible to date. And what it says is true.

I believe that the muslims see there version of the Bible is true… the best version yet. Yet, we have our own version of the Bible and what we see as true by our magestarium. The problem is the conflict between the two. I beleive that 95% of muslims are peaceful. I knew one of them, a woman in college and found that person to be a very likable person. Knowing this…

Should we be quick to judge others beliefs and admonish them… r should we be the Catholics we are and show are true nature… the loving and caring people we are… putting love first and allow the Holy Spirit to help those, instead of trying to be the Holy Spirit and make them believe?

The greatest avangelistic question of all time. Are you doing it? Or, is the Holy Spirit doing the love you seek to give others?

 

[mercytruth]

Actually, it is not a difficult question to answer and this question is applicable not just to the Injeel and Taurat, it also applies to other ancient scriptures like the Bhagavad Gita as well.

Not all parts of earlier scriptures have been corrupted and they have indeed retained some of their profound truths which could have come only from Almighty God Himself.

The great news is that humankind has been given the Furqan i.e. the Criterion by which to filter out the corrupted segments of earlier scriptures from the profound truths that are undoubtedly found in them.

This Furqan is of course the noble Qur’an.

And so, if anything appears in earlier scriptures which is not found or seems to conflict with the Qur’an and also with the Sunnah, it is simply disregarded by Muslims.

When Isa the Masih comes to defeat the antichrist, and judge the nations, I hope you are not making an assumption that whatever is not in the Quran regarding the teachings of Isa of the Injil, you do not have to obey.

hamba2han,

The Virgin Mary loves Muslims, this is why she appeared in the city of Fatima, Portugal which is named after one of the daughters of Mohammed.

I hope you will respond to these questions:

I have read somewhere that the Passover in Egypt is mentioned in the Quran, is this true?
If so, does the Quran speak of the lamb that was to be without spot or blemish? Isa the Masih, Jesus the Messiah, is the lamb without spot or blemish who was crucified at Passover.

The denial of the actual crucifixion of Isa, or Jesus Christ was taught by the ‘gnostic’ sects of Christian heretics who tried to deceive the people of the Injil. These types of heretics who denied the crucifixion of Isa were called antichrists. So, the Quran is correct in agreeing with these gnostic sects that the crucifixion did not actually happen?

 

[hamba2han]

When Isa the Masih comes to defeat the antichrist, and judge the nations, I hope you are not making an assumption that whatever is not in the Quran regarding the teachings of Isa of the Injil, you do not have to obey.

hamba2han,

The Virgin Mary loves Muslims, this is why she appeared in the city of Fatima, Portugal which is named after one of the daughters of Mohammed.

I hope you will respond to these questions:

I have read somewhere that the Passover in Egypt is mentioned in the Quran, is this true?
If so, does the Quran speak of the lamb that was to be without spot or blemish? Isa the Masih, Jesus the Messiah, is the lamb without spot or blemish who was crucified at Passover.

The denial of the actual crucifixion of Isa, or Jesus Christ was taught by the ‘gnostic’ sects of Christian heretics who tried to deceive the people of the Injil. These types of heretics who denied the crucifixion of Isa were called antichrists. So, the Quran is correct in agreeing with these gnostic sects that the crucifixion did not actually happen?

I am not aware of any verse in the Qur’an which mentions a lamb with regard to the story of Prophet Moses (pbuh) and the people at the time of the Exodus.

The story of the alleged crucifixion of Jesus Christ (pbuh) is not considered a particularly special occasion in Islam since it is not unusual for Allah to save His Prophets (peace be upon them all) from being harmed by their enemies.

And when it comes to sacrifice, the willingness of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) to sacrifice his only child in obedience to his Lord is regarded as a much, much greater act of steadfastness in faith than to sacrifice one’s own self.

And I really cannot understand why Christians believe that this alleged crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh) should be considered as an act of sacrifice by God Almighty since He can so very, very easily create another “Son” anytime He wants to if indeed I were to accept that the story of this crucifixion really did happen the way Christians believe it did.

By comparison, the willingness to slay his only child by Prophet Abraham (pbuh) was really a supreme sacrifice on his part because of the simple fact that unlike his Lord and Creator, he himself was powerless to do anything to replace his son.