Sure, I'll do what Osama says!

[Abu_Ismail]

Part of the trouble with the Quran is how terribly ambiguous it can be. For example, the books are not arranged chronologically, and a verse states essentially that whatever Allah said last is what applies, so the question is which verse came last?
.

No the problem is that people without knowledge feel they can just pick and choose verses of the Qur’an out of context and turn it into some type of general ruling. The short time I have been on these forums I have seen some people quoting all sorts of verses without any idea whatsoever as to what context it refers to.

I’m not sure why this is the case, perhaps it’s something that Christianity permits or even encourages, however it is not something that Islam allows - for the very reason that in order to be in the position to come to a ruling that people can follow, a person needs to be of the utmost calibre in the fields of Arabic, and in Hadiths, and many other sciences before anyone will even listen to that person. Anyone can claim anything they want by quoting a verse here and there, or a website or two, but Islamically that has very little bearing on the matter of what is as Islamically acceptable ruling.

The problem afflicting the Muslim world is the dearth of knowledgeable scholars trained in the traditional sciences, which has always been balanced. It saddens me when I see non-Muslims, of all people, promoting these false teachings on this forum, as this does nothing except spread the ignorance and false teachings. I get the feeling some people do this simply to help increase their faith in their own beliefs, which is a sad state of affairs if it is the case.

Anyway… sorry for waffling… yes what you speak of is called naskh wa mansukh which refers to abrogation, but the number of verses that are considered abrogated are very few, and it takes knowledge of asbab al-nazul (the cause of revelations) to know which verses were abrogated, and why.

Peace to all those that seek the truth.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

No the problem is that people without knowledge feel they can just pick and choose verses of the Qur’an out of context and turn it into some type of general ruling. The short time I have been on these forums I have seen some people quoting all sorts of verses without any idea whatsoever as to what context it refers to.

I’m not sure why this is the case, perhaps it’s something that Christianity permits or even encourages, however it is not something that Islam allows - for the very reason that in order to be in the position to come to a ruling that people can follow, a person needs to be of the utmost calibre in the fields of Arabic, and in Hadiths, and many other sciences before anyone will even listen to that person. Anyone can claim anything they want by quoting a verse here and there, or a website or two, but Islamically that has very little bearing on the matter of what is as Islamically acceptable ruling.

The problem afflicting the Muslim world is the dearth of knowledgeable scholars trained in the traditional sciences, which has always been balanced. It saddens me when I see non-Muslims, of all people, promoting these false teachings on this forum, as this does nothing except spread the ignorance and false teachings. I get the feeling some people do this simply to help increase their faith in their own beliefs, which is a sad state of affairs if it is the case.

Anyway… sorry for waffling… yes what you speak of is called naskh wa mansukh which refers to abrogation, but the number of verses that are considered abrogated are very few, and it takes knowledge of asbab al-nazul (the cause of revelations) to know which verses were abrogated, and why.

Peace to all those that seek the truth.

It is at least slightly comforting that Osama is the only one of his family to go down that dark path…

 

[Abu_Ismail]

It is at least slightly comforting that Osama is the only one of his family to go down that dark path…

It is not comforting, in fact there are others that think like him, and whilst I’ve found that many are all talk, given that 1.5 billion or so Muslims exist on the globe it’s not hard to see that there are probably others that think that way and are willing to act, however invalid Islamically their beliefs may be.

The Muslim world is in turmoil at the moment, no doubt. Whether it be from petro-funded reformist teachings coming out of Saudi or what have you, it’s true that along with colonisation many of the traditional learning centres were shut down, and this has been disasterous for the wider Muslim community. Ask the average Muslim in the street the most basic question on Islamic jurisprudence and they either wont be able to answer, or else give an incorrect answer. With such widespread ignorance such as this combines with massive political upheaval then it’s no wonder we’re in a mess at the moment.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

That seems to be true of all major religions- some members are ignorant or otheriwse ignore that which doesn’t suit them. It is common among Catholics. Many universities are secular or outright anti-religious. It is a sad state the world is in.

 

[Abu_Ismail]

I think that is why it’s important for like-minded religious people to put aside their theological differences and work together to improve things.

Just the other night my friends and I were discussing whether or not we should vote for the “Family First” party here in Australia, based on the fact that they upheld good decent values, even though they have come out and openly attacked Islam.

There is another initiative being run in this country called the “Goodness and Kindness” campaign that was started by a good friend of mine, see smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/19/1061261157765.html for details.

These types of things can really build bridges and help defeat the zealots and extremists on all fronts, I believe. We just need people to get past them “I’m right, you’re wrong so I’m going to attack you” mentality.

 

[Montalban]

This is pure fantasy. The Qur’an is clear on this point, there is no compulsion in religion. All classical scholars agree that accepting Islam is only valid if a person believes it to be the truth in the heart.

If you believe you’re going to be killed, then you’re going to want to convert with all your heart!

If there were no compulsion, why make non-Moslems discriminated against in law?

 

[Montalban]

I think that is why it’s important for like-minded religious people to put aside their theological differences and work together to improve things.

There’s nothing wrong with building bridges, but to deny certain things about the other is like Chamberlin waving a piece of paper he got from Hitler and saying “Peace in our time!”

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

There’s nothing wrong with building bridges, but to deny certain things about the other is like Chamberlin waving a piece of paper he got from Hitler and saying “Peace in our time!”

It is true that it is difficult to find a Christian who wants to blow himself up as compared to finding a Muslim who would do so.

I keep reading about indoctrinization in palestinian children- that certainly isn’t helping…

 

[bpbasilphx]

I confess. I confess. I confess there is no God but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate!

 

[Montalban]

It is true that it is difficult to find a Christian who wants to blow himself up as compared to finding a Muslim who would do so.

I keep reading about indoctrinization in palestinian children- that certainly isn’t helping…

Indeed. There’s a number of well-meaning people on both sides, and I’m assuming (for the present) that Abu Ismail is one such person who simply wish to gloss over these very major differences of belief and hope we can all live together.

I hope we can too.

But as with my example, it would be like living in Britian in 1938 and assuming that Hitler was as good as his word when he spoke of peaceful co-existence in Europe.

 

[De_Maria]

Some do, and many don’t. I lived in Malaysia for a few years, and in Kuala Lumpur it’s easier to find a Church than it is a mosque.

Exactly what point are you making? That Malaysia is a Christian country? It is in Malaysia that Christians have been shot in Church isn’t it?

         • [**Christian              Community Center Burned in Malaysia**](http://www.worthynews.com/news-features-2/malaysia-community-center-burned.html) - Worthy News
        A Christian community center in Malaysia was set ablaze on July 21              by suspected Muslim extremists.

Or are these reports lies?

What “some nations” do does not mean it is Islamically acceptable.

Then why aren’t you there teaching what is Islamically acceptable? Isn’t it possible that you are the one who doesn’t know what is Islamically acceptable? What makes you the authority?

In the Saudi, no other religions are permitted except Islam? Where is the “no compulsion clause” in their Quran?

In Sudan, Christians are enslaved and raped daily. Where is the “non oppression” clause there?

What good does it do for you to correct what you call our misinterpretations of the Quran when the majority of Muslims are making the very same interpretations we are making with dire consequences for nonMuslims?

No, the Qur’an does not say this. It does, however, say:

If it doesn’t then Sharia law, which is the law based on the Quran, needs to be rewritten:

MALAYSIA: Apex Court to Decide If Muslims Can Convert
By Baradan Kuppusamy

• Converts like Lina live in fear because the punishment for apostates includes forced “rehabilitation”, caning and imprisonment. The Quranic injunction of “death and damnation” for Muslims who help others renounce Islam is taken seriously, even by officials.

According to some estimates there are at least 15,000 Malay-Muslims who have converted to Christianity. Most converts are students who changed their faith while studying abroad or, like Lina, are married to people of other faiths and want the state to recognise the change for themselves and their families. *

ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33940

So don’t you think your time would be better served educating your fellow Muslims about how they are misinterpreting the Quran?

And many, many more I could quote… so exactly where is the “convert or die” message in these verses?

It isn’t in those verses, but it is in the Quran. It is in the verses you left out but which your fellow Muslims don’t leave out.

Note how this Muslim, believes as you do, but admits that forced conversions occur.

*However, the post-Qur’anic Islamic literature is not so friendly to religious freedom. The hadiths and the jurists’ opinions based on them added a lot of extra rules and regulations due to the political needs of the early Islamic empire. The ban on apostasy was such a post-Qur’anic rule that I think we Muslims should abandon right away. People should have the right to leave Islam and choose other religions if they decide to do so.

However, forced conversion is something that goes even beyond the mainstream post-Qur’anic orthodoxy, whether it is Sunni or Shiite. Although pagan Arabs weren’t tolerated and were forced to convert, the Sunni orthodoxy accepted that Christians and Jews (and later, Hindus and Buddhists) had the right to keep their faith by accepting the dhimmi (“protected”) status.
*
**Excerpt begins in about the tenth paragraph of this article:
jihadwatch.org/archives/013668.php
**

Or are you simply content to quote over verses out of context to fool yourself into thinking it is the case.

Nope. I simply see what is going on in the Islamic world and how they ALL treat other religions with disdain and disrespect. You claim it isn’t in the Quran, but somehow it is getting in your Islamic religion. Whether it be via the Quran or not.

And I think your priorities are misplaced. Instead of telling us what we are somehow being unfair to Muslims because we don’t understand the Quran, you should be educating the Muslims who are misinterpreting the very same Quran and thereby persecuting and oppressing innocent people of all religions.

Saying “classical scholars aside” is sort of like saying, “Islam aside, …”.

No. Its like saying that you don’t know what you are talking about. You’re talking theory and people are being killed and oppressed by Muslims who are doing exactly what you say the Quran doesn’t teach. Yet they are gettng their teaching from somewhere aren’t they?

Again, if hatred is being preached in some mosques, then this does not justify anything Islamically. I don’t disagree with you that there are incorrect interpretations of Islam floating about… the question is, which one are you willing to believe? If you take the literal puritanical interpretation of the extremists, then what is the difference between you and them?

I’m not a Muslim. I don’t believe anything the Quran says. As far as I’m concerned it is a book inspired by Satan.

The important thing here is not what I believe. It is what your Muslim brothers believe. They are the ones causing the bloodshed and mayhem. They are the ones blowing themselves up along with innocent Jews and other civilians of any faith.

Where are the “good” Muslims which should be telling the “bad” Muslims, “Hey, don’t do that!” But instead you are here telling us we are wrong.

Really… Osama said that did he? You must be reading a different transcript than I have. In the one I have he mentions how Christians have been living side-by-side with Muslims for centuries.

What does that transcript say about Americans?

That’s if you believe the video really is OBL, of course.

And you don’t? What, is it another case of Western propaganda? Muslims good, all others are liars?

Nobody will deny here that there are problems in the Muslim world at the moment. However, think about it - God in the Qur’an clearly mentions that oppressors are doomed, so obviously, anyone oppressing a group of people is not following what God intends for us.

So, you are telling a group of Catholics that Muslims are wrong for oppressing people. Shouldn’t you be telling those Muslims?

Oh, but I note that you carefully worded the statement to avoid admitting the guilt of Muslims in this respect. Par for the course. There are problems in the Muslim world, not complete chaos, injustice, and unwarranted violence against other religions.

What you need to explain to us, is how Sharia law, which was developed by the scholars which you mentioned earlier and which is based on the very same Quran which you worship, can have so many things in it, which are not in the Quran.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

No the problem is that people without knowledge feel they can just pick and choose verses of the Qur’an out of context and turn it into some type of general ruling. The short time I have been on these forums I have seen some people quoting all sorts of verses without any idea whatsoever as to what context it refers to.

The typical Muslim party line. Its not our fault, you guys are not understanding Islam. Meantime, Muslims are killing and oppressing Jews, Christians and Pagans all over the world and using the Quran to justify their actions.

I’m not sure why this is the case, perhaps it’s something that Christianity permits or even encourages,

Its because Muslims themselves tell us why they are attacking us. Lets look at the headlines:

The principal of an Islamic school in Acton, England has admitted that it uses textbooks which describe Jews as “apes” and Christians as “pigs” and has refused to withdraw them, reports ThisisLondon.co.uk.
people.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1259530.php/Dr._Sumaya_Alyusuf_Jews_apes_and_Christians_pigs

June 25, 2006

**Christians still 'swine' and Jews 'apes' in Saudi schools**

Another story on Saudi dissembling about their textbooks. And of course, why wouldn’t this material be in them? It’s in the Qur’an (2:62-65; 5:59-60; 7:166). From the Telegraph, with thanks to Anon:
Saudi Arabia has been accused of continuing to foster religious hatred in its schools, despite its repeated assurances since the September 11 attacks that it would rewrite textbooks that refer to Jews as “apes” and Christians as “swine”. The charges come after Freedom House, a non-partisan American research group which monitors civil rights worldwide, examined textbooks that it smuggled out of Saudi Arabia. The group found that despite promises of change from leading Saudi officials, including Saud al-Faisal, the foreign minister, and Turki al-Faisal, the ambassador to America, schoolbooks in the kingdom still promote hatred of those who do not practise its strict form of Wahhabi Islam.
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011971.php

however it is not something that Islam allows

You can’t prove it by Muslim behavior. I’ve met many Muslims personally before. I’ve listened to their tirades against Jews and other nonbelievers.

And their behavior is consistent with what is going on in the world.

• for the very reason that in order to be in the position to come to a ruling that people can follow, a person needs to be of the utmost calibre in the fields of Arabic, and in Hadiths, and many other sciences before anyone will even listen to that person. Anyone can claim anything they want by quoting a verse here and there, or a website or two, but Islamically that has very little bearing on the matter of what is as Islamically acceptable ruling.

And what are your qualifications? Are you an Arab speaker? Are you a convert? Are you from Arabia? What exactly are your qualifications to tell us what Islam is about?

The problem afflicting the Muslim world is the dearth of knowledgeable scholars trained in the traditional sciences, which has always been balanced. It saddens me when I see non-Muslims, of all people, promoting these false teachings on this forum, as this does nothing except spread the ignorance and false teachings. I get the feeling some people do this simply to help increase their faith in their own beliefs, which is a sad state of affairs if it is the case.

Anytime you want to compare the contradictions of the Quran to the fullness of truth in Catholic Teaching, I’m ready to help you. Perhaps then you’ll see how open or closed your people are to other religions.

Anyway… sorry for waffling… yes what you speak of is called naskh wa mansukh which refers to abrogation, but the number of verses that are considered abrogated are very few, and it takes knowledge of asbab al-nazul (the cause of revelations) to know which verses were abrogated, and why.

In other words, no one really knows which verses are abrogated nor why. The scholars contradict each other and have no authority to make rulings over all the Islamic world.

The very plain fact is that the abrogation doctrine is simply a way of justifying the contradictions in the Quran. It does not remove contradictions, it confirms them.

Peace to all those that seek the truth.

If you want to seek the truth, you need to study Catholic Teaching. Islam contains very little truth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[dolphinlove]

Between Osama and Paars constant spamming, ive been hypnotized and now its time for me to convert…:hypno:


This is the part of the reason ill never respect Islam, it makes me mad to see this murderer still getting the amount of publicity he gets.

 

[Abu_Ismail]

If you believe you’re going to be killed, then you’re going to want to convert with all your heart!

If there were no compulsion, why make non-Moslems discriminated against in law?

Non-Muslims were not discriminated. All that was asked was that men who wished to be exempt from fighting to protect the land pay a tax in return for it, and even this could not be taken by force. When you add up all the zakat which was an obligation for every Muslim man, woman, or child, along with the compulsory military service, it pretty much pales in comparison.

In some cases it was even waived, or reduced.

Hardly an instrument of oppression.

 

[Montalban]

Non-Muslims were not discriminated.

That’s simply false. You already recognise on another thread the need for them to pay a tax just for being non-Moslem. That’s a start.

There’s no equality before the law- a non-Moslem’s testimony can’t be used to convict a Moslem

All that was asked was that men who wished to be exempt from fighting to protect the land pay a tax in return for it, and even this could not be taken by force. When you add up all the zakat which was an obligation for every Muslim man, woman, or child, along with the compulsory military service, it pretty much pales in comparison.

What children had to pay zakat? On the other thread you at least recognised it’s only persons with property. Now you say all children!

In some cases it was even waived, or reduced.

Hardly an instrument of oppression.

The fact non-Moslems had to pay a tax just for being non-Moslem is the start of oppression.

In accordance with the Pact of Umar, dhimmis had no right to bear arms of any kind.[34] The few exceptions to this rule were some Jewish tribes in the Atlas Mountains and in the Central Asia.[97] Despite the prohibition to carry weapons, Muslim jurists allowed using a dhimmi as an auxiliary soldier “as one would use a dog”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Personal_safety

And, ever heard of Devshirme? Moslems would take Christian boys from their families and force them to become Moslem soldiers; most infamoulsy the Jannisary

 

[Montalban]

These types of things can really build bridges and help defeat the zealots and extremists on all fronts, I believe. We just need people to get past them “I’m right, you’re wrong so I’m going to attack you” mentality.

For Christians, we believe you’re wrong, and say so. But that’s not an ‘attack’ in the same sense that Moslems attack Christians i.e with violence.
See
vom.com.au/

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

What is Jizyah?

Ibn Rushd defines it thus: what is taken from the people of disbelief in repayment for their security and SPARING THEIR LIVES while they remain unbelievers.

zakatpages.com/about/

Not very nice, is it? The mafia says the same thing when they exact protection money. Islam is nothing but a protection racket against the dhimmis.

 

[hamba2han]

In Islam, it is forbidden to dye one’s hair black.

Ibn ‘Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “The Messenger of Allah (Peace & Blessings of Allah be upon Him) said: ‘At the end of time there will be people who will dye their hair black like the crops of pigeons. They will never even smell the fragrance of Paradise.” (reported by Imam Ahmad, see also Saheeh al-Jaami‘, no. 8153).

And so, if the person in that video had dyed his beard black with full knowledge of the punishment, then he will not enter Paradise.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

What absurd rules Islam has. You cannot dye your hair black but you can dye it red with henna like Muhammad used to do.

 

[hamba2han]

It was also reported from the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allah be upon Him) that one should change grey hair, using any colour except black.

Abu Dharr reported that the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allah be upon Him) said: “The best things with which to change grey hair are henna and ‘katam’ (a plant similar to henna which is used as a dye).” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, no. 1675).

And so, that man in the video really is not following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) at all if indeed he has dyed his beard black.