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StAnastasia
Guest
Not apples and oranges at all. I celebrate more abundant life!
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Apollos
Guest
I steered clear of this thread once the principal contributor started talking about people as property. Because I didn’t want to break Godwin’s Law.
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catharina
Guest
On the contrary. In the matter of in vitro, you celebrate sin - and sin is death.
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Dr_Paul
Guest
I truly thank all who have contributed to this thread. While the discussion has moved away from my original question on how to best explain the “why” of the Church’s teaching on artificial reproductive methods, the attempt to justify rejection of the Church’s teaching has helped to strengthen my understanding of the “why not” mentality.
Sadly it is often those who through their level of education feel justified in rejecting Christ by rejecting the teachings of His Church. I only pray that those who think this way are able to step away from the rhetoric and consider what is truly at stake here.
The Church agrees wholeheartedly that the generation of new human life is very very good. What StAnastasia apparently does not understand is the use of evil means to achieve this end leads to erosion of our sense of who we are and who God is. Like Adam and Eve, we begin to think that we can be God (or at least more godlike). What really happens is the opposite.
Sadly it is often those who through their level of education feel justified in rejecting Christ by rejecting the teachings of His Church. I only pray that those who think this way are able to step away from the rhetoric and consider what is truly at stake here.
The Church agrees wholeheartedly that the generation of new human life is very very good. What StAnastasia apparently does not understand is the use of evil means to achieve this end leads to erosion of our sense of who we are and who God is. Like Adam and Eve, we begin to think that we can be God (or at least more godlike). What really happens is the opposite.
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catharina
Guest
Paul, again, my sympathy.
God blessed me with six brothers (and a sister) so I can imagine how painful this is.
As for your brother’s faith, does he think he must understand the Blessed Trinity?
Or transubstantiation? Or the concept of infinity as it relates to God?
I’m certain he accepts all such things in Faith.
Our ‘understanding’ is not required - but our obedience is required.
Acceptance of Church teachings is required.
You know that - maybe you could remind your brother of such things.
God bless you.
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catharina
Guest
Encouraging such a stance to one’s students is even more disturbing.
To encourage such misunderstanding is to enter another level of profound error.
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ALLGIRLS
Guest
Once again we are not talking about what society allows or medical practitioners will do. Everyone has free will, that’s why there is evil in the world. We’re talking about WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ALLOWS! This forum is called CATHOLIC ANSWERS, and this is the MORAL THEOLOGY section. The OP came looking for advice FROM THE CATHOLIC PERSPECTIVE, not secular society’s. I think you’re trying to convince (and the rest of us), that what his brother and sister-in-law are doing is just wonderful. That’s not what he wants to hear! He knows it’s wrong, and wants advice on how to approach it FROM A CATHOLIC PERSPECTIVE! So, in a word, YOU ARE NOT HELPING!
In Christ,
Ellen
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catharina
Guest
Ellen, great assessment!
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ALLGIRLS
Guest
Not for the thousands of babies not “lucky” enough to be “chosen” for implantation and either immediately destroyed, torn apart for research, or left in a frozen limbo for years until their parents decide they don’t want anymore children (or can’t afford anymore procedures) and are then discarded or used for research. Or the one’s unlucky enough to be targeted for “selective reduction” if too many babies have the audacity to implant successfully against the odds.
You can’t have it both ways. Once this “wonderful technology” is allowed, you can’t put Catholic moral parameters on it; i.e., “you may only create the exact amount of embryos you are willing to implant and carry to term”. That’s not how secular society works, as you well know. It’s all or nothing. Do you really believe it’s right to sacrifice countless children (and yes, they are children, with immortal souls, from the moment of their conception in the petri dish, even the “defective” ones) just so a couple can have a biological child? And don’t try to compare this with valid medical procedures like heart bypass or moral fertility like the use of clomid or operations to correct defects so the marital act can work as it’s supposed to. You KNOW it’s not the same thing at all!
In Christ,
Ellen
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catharina
Guest
It challenges all reason to accept that any Catholic “celebrates life”
when that ‘life’ comes into being through the commission of multiple sins.
It challenges all reason to think that one can pretend to present the notion
for “acceptance” on a Catholic site that upholds all teachings of the Church.
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Newbie2
Guest
Very simply stated, this POV is inconsistant with Catholic Theology. I would challenge St.A to produce evidence beyond a personal opinion to the contrary. Philosophy does not equal Theology, although the Catholic Church makes use of philosophy as as aid to her Theology.
Wow, that’s pretty deep thinking.
Using that philosophy, “life is good”, we could then make a case for sheep-human hybreds. double
However, the creation of life and the preservation of life are two different things. I would think that such would be a clear distinction for someone who claims to teach ethics and espouse Catholic morality.
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catharina
Guest
What you are supporting as a “Catholic professor”
is the very antithesis of Church teachings.
How can you justify that to yourself?
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Dr_Paul
Guest
I think it is easier to accept a teaching that one does not fully understand when one does not have another conflicting desire or belief. My brother is a Thomist and he knows that faith does not contradict reason. He is having difficulty is reconciling his reasoning (misguided as it is) with Church teaching. I think at a deeper level, he does see the problem. But once he has been able to accept that IVF and surrogate motherhood are intrinsically evil, he will then need to explain this to his wife and convince her of this truth. It is a very difficult place to be. The easier path seems to be to build the arguments for why the Church must be wrong and proceed with their plans.
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StAnastasia
Guest
That’s the interesting question: explaining why surrogacy and in vitro fertilization are intrinsically evil. I have yet to see a convincing argument in support of that claim. I’m pro-life, so I’m glad that the woman I know whose sister bore her and her husband’s biological children will now have a family to raise in God’s love.
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ALLGIRLS
Guest
How can you say you are pro-life and be ok with the 1000s of babies that are killed as by-products of this procedure? You can wax theoretical all you want about “ethically” creating only the number of embryos that will be implanted and carried to term, but this is NOT reality, and it will never be reality in a society that ignores Church teaching. We may not kill even one innocent person, much less 1000s, so that others may live.
In Christ,
Ellen
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StAnastasia
Guest
Do you like deliberatley distorting what other people say? Is this what you think chartable listening involves?
I thought I made it clear that I am opposed to abortion and the death of your “1000s of babies.” I am arguing only for the now possible fertility treatment of direct insemination of one or two eggs, depending on the number of embryos desired. I am absolutely opposed to the creation of hundreds of embryos that will be wasted.
I don’t distort your words. Please return me the favor by not distorting what I have said.
StAnastasia
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Dr_Paul
Guest
In my brother’s case, he does see and recognize the problem with destruction of embryos. His plans are to fertilize and implant only two embryos. He recognizes that this is a very costly approach that reduces the chances of success. He believes that if this is successful it will be an affirmation that he has done God’s will. You are correct that in practice, IVF usually involves the creation and destruction (or indefinite storage) of embryos. But this does not necessarily need to happen.
IFV is intrinsically evil EVEN IF only embryos to be implanted are generated. The reason the Church gives is that it is evil because it separates the unitive and procreative aspects that need to be present in generation of every new human life. My brother needs help in understanding why IVF violates this principle and why this is an absolute requirement. My attempts to explain this to him have been unsuccessful.
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ALLGIRLS
Guest
Then you need to support a moratorium on the procedure until such rules are in place(which will never happen so long as unborn children are not considered human beings with rights), not continue to support a make-believe version that doesn’t currently exist, which only contributes to more babies dying.
In Christ,
Ellen
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ALLGIRLS
Guest
At this point there’s probably nothing more you can do than pray. “There is none so blind than those who won’t see.” I used to be the same way: completely pro-choice feminist. Someone must have been praying for me, so miracles can happen
In Christ,
Ellen
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momor
Guest
I sympathize with you and your brother. I have to admit that I still struggle with some of the Church’s teaching on reproduction and the insistence on not bypassing normal intercourse ( but tell me, how ‘normal’ are penile implants?) under any circumstances. For instance, how natural are organ transplants? It certainly seems to go against the plan God had for our biological nature to be walking around with other people’s organs inside us, yet this is OK.
All I can do is obey and hope to come to some understanding.
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