survey Mary is God? yes or no?

[Shenango]

Greetings Daniel Marsh,

The allegation that the Qur’an erred in believing that Christians deified Mary has really become one of the oldest tricks in the book used to attack the Qur’an. In fact, I believe it comes up on this forum at least once a month, if not more (which should tell you something about its value).

Why doesn’t it wash with Muslims? Because the verse is very obviously taken out of context, and, considering other similar verses in the Qur’an, could very well have other than the zealously literal meaning Christians like to read from it (as you have done). If it’s just a matter of interpretation, then it becomes a very weak argument indeed.

The context of the rest of the passage will show you that 5:116 isn’t concerned with refuting Christian beliefs about God. Christians are standing on the plain of Judgement on the Last Day, about to be condemned to perish. God is not as concerned at this point with whatever lip service Christians paid to belief in God and the Trinity formulation. Beliefs are trivial at this point: we are talking concrete actions with regard to God. As Jesus (PBUH) is reported to say, he will disown Christians, saying that he was a witness over their actions when he was among them, but that he’s not responsible for what they did after. These are serious crimes against God Christians are being tried for…for offering devotions to Jesus (PBUH) and Mary and bestowing on them honor that is the right of God alone.

While it’s great that Catholics don’t consider Mary God, I could point you to several things everyday Catholics commonly do and say, listed on Catholic sites, with regard to Mary that would amount to blasphemy and idolatry against God in Islam. If you have accorded to other than God what belongs to Him only, then you have effectively worshipped that object, whether you would acknowledge that object or profess its worship, or not. Actions speak louder than words.

Finally, the Qur’an speaks symbolically in so many other locations: you have not offered an argument for why we must take this verse (5:116) in its zealously literal meaning, divorced from its clear context. For instance, compare this verse with 9:31, which accuses Christians and Jews of worshipping their priests and rabbis, and yet others which warn mankind against worshipping Satan.

Clearly nobody practiced the worship of Satan in the Qur’an or Muhammad’s time, nor is it likely that Muhammad (PBUH) erroneously believed that Christians and Jews considered their rabbis and priests gods or God. Clearly, these verses must mean something else. In fact, they exaggerate for effect, and 5:116 does so in the same manner. Anyone who’s studied literature can tell you this is a common device.

If only the Qur’an was as shallow and easy to defeat as you dream…if only…

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Joseph_Alison and Shenango, who is judging at the last Judgement Jesus or Allah or God the Father?

 

[Shenango]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi Joseph_Alison and Shenango, who is judging at the last Judgement Jesus or Allah or God the Father?

Allah is judging at the last Judgement, and “Allah” is identical to who Christians call and know as “God the Father”, the first person of the Trinity (though, not the Son or the Holy Spirit). Allah/Elohim/YHWH/God/The Father…whatever you want to call Him, calls forward all the prophets as a testimony against people’s wrongful acts, to show that what people did was not what these prophets actually preached. This is what Jesus (PBUH) is called to do, and he’s asked if he commanded his followers (ostensibly, those who call themselves Christians) to serve and honor other than God (The Father/Allah, who is the only true god), namely him and his mother (thus effectively making them as co-gods with God).

And Jesus (PBUH) testifies that he only preached service to God alone, and afterwards separates himself from what Christians have done in respect to him and Mary after his earthly mission ended, disclaiming any partiality or caring what God decides to do with them. We’re not told what God will decide, for obvious reasons, and the scene leaves off there.

 

[corkybob]

“And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.” Holy Qur’an 5:116

Do you believe that Mary is God?

Is there anywhere in Catholic History where it was believed that Mary is God?

The answer is no. Mary is not God. Mary is a creature like us that was not subjected to original sin, that sin of Adam. In doing so God created her so that she could bare the Christ, the Son (made of the same substance as) of the eternal God. According to the bible, all those who follow her son and God call her blessed. Since she eternally remained a virgin she is called the Blessed Virgin Mary.

As far as did the Catholic Church ever hold her as a God? Depends on what you mean. Early a cult in Egypt did in fact worshiped her. When the bishops heard of this they immediately ordered them to cease these type of worship services.

Pax
John

 

[Justice2006]

corkybob:

The answer is no. Mary is not God. Mary is a creature like us that was not subjected to original sin, that sin of Adam.

Mr. corkybob,

Why Saint Mary cannot be God as well?

Afterall she gave birth to “Son of God” by carrying “Him” for nine months. Oh sorry! I should have said “Saint Mary gave birth to “God Almighty” by carrying “Him” for nine months”.

Now Mr. corkybob, do you think giving birth to “God Almighty” is as same as any woman’s giving birth to any Tom, Dick and Harry?

If Jesus’s birth without Father makes him, God Almighty, then, the one, who literally kept “God Almighty” in her womb for whole nine months, must be greater than Jesus-God Almighty. Because God Almighty (Jesus)** too ** had an another God who was greater than “God Almighty” as he is reported to have said in one of the gospels: “My Father is greater than me”.

You may say: “Well since Saint Mary did not perform any miracle, thus she cannot be God Almighty or cannot be part of mysterious Holy Trinity”.

Then, I must ask you that:

**Did Jesus, who was God Almighty, perform any miracle or any wonder or any sign from his own?

Show me which sign or which wonder or which miracle, “God Almighty” performed from his own power? Please show me atleast one.**

.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

MariaG:

Question: Do mothers pray to God for thier children in Islam? Husbands for their wives? Friends for their friends? My ignorance of your religion is great so I ask have to ask.

Maria

Salaam Maria;
Sorry for the late answer.
The answer is yes to all your questions.
In Islam we also believe that the one who prays for his brother/sister gets the same thing he is asking Allah (SWT) for his brother/sister.

There are two sorts of prayers: the “outspoken” prayers, and the “silent, none spoken, in the heart” prayers.

What is the number of simultaneous “outspoken” prayers going up to heaven in one single moment? It can be thousands, millions or billions. And who can hear all these simultaneous prayers at once? One single Being can, and He is Omniscient, Omnipresent, that is God. If I believe that someone else, apart from God, can hear all the multitude of “outspoken” simultaneous prayers at once, it simply means I believe that he has an attribute which belongs only to God, which amounts to ascribing a partner to God in one of His exclusive attributes. This is major shirk.

What is the number of the “silent, none spoken, in the heart” prayers go up to heaven in one single moment? It can be thousands, millions or billions. And who can hear all these simultaneous “silent, none spoken, in the heart” prayers at once? One single Being can, and He is Omniscient, Omnipresent, that is God. The person sitting besides me can’t. Only God knows what takes place in the hearts. If I believe that someone else, apart from God, can hear my “silent, non spoken, in the heart” prayers, it simply means I believe that he has an attribute which belongs solely to God, which amounts to ascribing a partner to God in one of His exclusive attributes. This is major shirk.

We both agree that only God has the power to answer prayers, and we both see no harm in asking each other for prayers. To Muslims it is only God Who has the power to hear all the “outspoken” and “silent, none spoken, in the heart” prayers at once; believing that someone else, apart from God, has that capability, simply amounts to ascribing a partner to God in His exclusive attributes which, in this case, are omniscience and omnipresence, that amounts to major shirk.

Sister Maria, I would be grateful if you can educate me on the Catholic view:

1. Do Catholics believe that Mary (or the Saints) can hear ALL the simultaneous, one single moment, “outspoken” prayers directed to God through them, no matter what the number is?
2. Do Catholics believe that Mary (or the Saints) can hear ALL the simultaneous, one single moment, “silent, none spoken, in the heart” prayers directed to God through them, no matter what the number is?

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

You all do realize that Jesus will be the one who judges on Judgement day? Matthew 25.

The President of the United States is greater than me, but we both are of the same human nature. The text about the Father being greater than the Son, Jesus has to do with rank. Also, as a man the Father God would be greater than the human side of Jesus. All those proof texts prove is that Jesus was fully human. And, since us Christians believe that Jesus was fully God and fully human, Man that is not a problem to us.

 

[JimG]

Joseph_Alison:

Do Catholics believe that Mary (or the Saints) can hear ALL the simultaneous, one single moment, “outspoken” prayers directed to God through them, no matter what the number is?

Saints in heaven no longer exist in time or in space, so the concept of simultaneity has no meaning in heaven. Further, the saints in heaven are united with God. It is through God’s will and God’s power that saints can hear our prayers.

Consider an earthly analogy: A communications satellite in geostationary orbit can transmit one signal, and yet be heard by millions simultaneously on the earth. If such is possible using mere earthly means, why should we limit the power of God with respect to the saints in heaven?

Is it beyond the power of God to enable the saints to hear our prayers? Does God’s infinite power not extend to this possibility?

 

[MariaG]

Joseph_Alison:

Salaam Maria;
Sorry for the late answer.
The answer is yes to all your questions.
In Islam we also believe that the one who prays for his brother/sister gets the same thing he is asking Allah (SWT) for his brother/sister.

There are two sorts of prayers: the “outspoken” prayers, and the “silent, none spoken, in the heart” prayers.

What is the number of simultaneous “outspoken” prayers going up to heaven in one single moment? It can be thousands, millions or billions. And who can hear all these simultaneous prayers at once? One single Being can, and He is Omniscient, Omnipresent, that is God. If I believe that someone else, apart from God, can hear all the multitude of “outspoken” simultaneous prayers at once, it simply means I believe that he has an attribute which belongs only to God, which amounts to ascribing a partner to God in one of His exclusive attributes. This is major shirk.

What is the number of the “silent, none spoken, in the heart” prayers go up to heaven in one single moment? It can be thousands, millions or billions. And who can hear all these simultaneous “silent, none spoken, in the heart” prayers at once? One single Being can, and He is Omniscient, Omnipresent, that is God. The person sitting besides me can’t. Only God knows what takes place in the hearts. If I believe that someone else, apart from God, can hear my “silent, non spoken, in the heart” prayers, it simply means I believe that he has an attribute which belongs solely to God, which amounts to ascribing a partner to God in one of His exclusive attributes. This is major shirk.

We both agree that only God has the power to answer prayers, and we both see no harm in asking each other for prayers. To Muslims it is only God Who has the power to hear all the “outspoken” and “silent, none spoken, in the heart” prayers at once; believing that someone else, apart from God, has that capability, simply amounts to ascribing a partner to God in His exclusive attributes which, in this case, are omniscience and omnipresence, that amounts to major shirk.

Sister Maria, I would be grateful if you can educate me on the Catholic view:

1. Do Catholics believe that Mary (or the Saints) can hear ALL the simultaneous, one single moment, “outspoken” prayers directed to God through them, no matter what the number is?
2. Do Catholics believe that Mary (or the Saints) can hear ALL the simultaneous, one single moment, “silent, none spoken, in the heart” prayers directed to God through them, no matter what the number is?

Salaam.
Joseph.

Joseph,

Thank you for answering my question. The reason I asked is because for a Catholic Christian, we believe since Christ overcame death, that we are united in one body, those who have died and those who are living, through God’s power. And since God finds it pleasing for us to pray for one another, He allows those who have died to continue to do so by allowing them to hear our requests for them to pray for us. For us, it is no different asking Mary to pray for us than it is for us to pray for our children or husbands, or asking other friends to do so.

I do not believe that the Saints hear all the prayers simultaneously. It is my belief that God allows them to hear and then pray for each person one at a time. Since there is no time in heaven, time is not an issue.

However, I do not know the official “Catholic answer”. I have put in a question to ask the apologist.

As for silent, unspoken prayer I do not know the official answer either. I believe that God alone hear the unspoken, cry from the heart. When I ask the saints to pray for me, it is much like a conversation I would have with a fellow Christian, asking them to pray for me. However, I do believe that God allows the saints to hear our mental prayers. Mental prayers being delibrate thought, silent unspoken ones being more as “groans” from the heart that I believe God alone hears.

If the Apologist choose to answer my question, I will post the answer here on this thread. It can take awhile though, they have alot of questions to answer.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Joseph_Alison]

JimG:

Saints in heaven no longer exist in time or in space, so the concept of simultaneity has no meaning in heaven. Further, the saints in heaven are united with God. It is through God’s will and God’s power that saints can hear our prayers.

Salaam JimG;
The above information is part of the unseen world to human beings ; no one has access to the unseen world safe God, except if He decides to let people know. Is it the case here? Did God inform that the saints no longer exist in time and space?
Did God inform that the saints are united with Him?
Did God inform that the saints hear prayers through His Will and Power?

Is it beyond the power of God to enable the saints to hear our prayers? Does God’s infinite power not extend to this possibility?

God can certainly do whatever pleases Him, but for such an important issue as prayers, He should have informed people that the possibility exists for them to act upon. Is it the case here? Did God inform that he made the Saints able to hear prayers?
Thanks.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[JimG]

Joseph_Alison:

God can certainly do whatever pleases Him, but for such an important issue as prayers, He should have informed people that the possibility exists for them to act upon.

Where is it written that God must write everything down for us? As a Catholic, I don’t believe in the doctrine of sola scriptura. It’s not up to us to decree how God must operate with respect to man. I believe that He gave his full revelation in Person—in the Person of Jesus. We have John in his gospel stating that not everything Jesus did was written about in detail; and we have nowhere in the scriptures a command by Jesus to write down anything.

Still, the scriptures are full of urgings for us to pray for one another. We are not told to stop praying for one another when we get to heaven.

(PS—I think some people who do not believe in praying to the saints, actually do believe in it in practice. I knew a widow who used to visit her husband’s gravesite every day. She firmly believed him to be in heaven. She would stay there for a long time talking to him about various things. Her denomination would not have approved of prayer to the saints, yet her actions indicated otherwise. She never seemed to think that these were useless exercises, or that God would not allow her husband to hear her. Just an observation.)

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Revelation 6:9-11 (King James Version)

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
**
This above looks like those in heaven are still subject to time.
**

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Note to self another thread to read, thanks again.

Whenever, I have seen Dominic Sanchez Falar post his false teachings on a mainline catholic site, he has been rebuked.

Third Secret states Mary is God.
Question from dominic sanchez falar on 8/6/2005:

The Third Secret of Our Lady of Fatima actually states that Mary is God. Mary is the Soul of the Holy Spirit.

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 8/7/2005:
**
That is heresy and therefore it is impossible that Our Lady of Fatima could have made such a claim.
**
Thanks, Dominic

Father Echert

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=445285&Pg=Forum7&Pgnu=1&recnu=10

 

[IHS]

I agree.Mary is not God. Although many catholics elevate her to a position that makes her equal with God.

 

[Neithan]

The Blessed Virgin Mary is indeed especially connected to the Holy Spirit–but she does not share in the Divine Personhood as Christ does.
In fact, *all *Christians in the Communion of Saints are specially connected to the Holy Spirit–but Mary first and foremost. Mary’s mysterious union with the Paraclete is the model which the Church emulates.

St. Maximillian Kolbe was of the opinion that when Our Lady of Lourdes said “I am the Immaculate Conception” she was referring to her particularly intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit, whom she mirrors. This mirror-image He called the Immaculata:

The* Incarnation* is the Son of God actually becoming a human being. Jesus Christ is both fully man and fully God, but He is one single Person.

The *Immaculata *is the Holy Spirit imaging Himself in a human being, but not actually becoming human. Like the Incarnation, this results in the union of human and Divine, but unlike the Incarnation, the two do not form one person; Mary is a separate and solely human being, but her intimate bond with the Third Person makes her into the most glorious of God’s pure creatures.

God=One Nature (Divine)=Three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

Incarnation=Two Natures (Human and Divine)=One Person (Son)

Immaculata=Two Natures (Human and Divine)=Two Persons (Mary and Holy Spirit resp.)

Mary is not a part of the Blessed Trinity, but she is a created compliment of it, an itinerary:
Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, and Bride of the Holy Spirit.

In Mary, God reveals the glory, purpose, and ideal of Woman.
It is right, just, and virtuous that we should super-venerate her as our Queen.

 

[Justice2006]

Mr. corkybob,

I repeat what I said before.

Why Saint Mary cannot be God as well?

Afterall she gave birth to “Son of God” by carrying “Him” for nine months. Oh sorry! I should have said “Saint Mary gave birth to “God Almighty” by carrying “Him” for nine months”.

Now Mr. corkybob, do you think giving birth to “God Almighty” is as same as any woman’s giving birth to any Tom, Dick and Harry?

If Jesus’s birth without Father makes him, God Almighty, then, the one, who literally kept “God Almighty” in her womb for whole nine months, must be greater than Jesus-God Almighty. Because God Almighty (Jesus)** too ** had an another God who was greater than “God Almighty” as he is reported to have said in one of the gospels: “My Father is greater than me”.

You may say: “Well since Saint Mary did not perform any miracle, thus she cannot be God Almighty or cannot be part of mysterious Holy Trinity”.

Then, I must ask you that:

**Did Jesus, who was God Almighty (=Jesus), perform any miracle or any wonder or any sign from his own?

Show me which sign or which wonder or which miracle, “God Almighty” performed from his own power? Please show me atleast one.**

.

 

[Myangel]

Justice2006:

Then, I must ask you that:

Did Jesus, who was God Almighty (=Jesus), perform any miracle or any wonder or any sign from his own?

Show me which sign or which wonder or which miracle, “God Almighty” performed from his own power? Please show me atleast one.

.

Please tell me you are joking? Do you really believe that Jesus did not perform any miracles? ARE YOU SERIOUS? :whacky: All the muslim people I have known believe that Jesus performed miracles and that he was the mightiest (I disagree with this) prophet! What was Mohammed’s miracle?

 

[JimG]

Justice2006:

If Jesus’s birth without Father makes him, God Almighty, then, the one, who literally kept “God Almighty” in her womb for whole nine months, must be greater than Jesus-God Almighty.

This is a serious misunderstanding and misstatement of Christian theology.

It is not Jesus being born of a virgin which “makes him” God almighty. He possesses His divinity by reason of his pre-existence as the eternal Son, being consubstantial with the Father.

The person of the son is not created by being born of a virgin. His conception in the womb of the virgin is the point in time and space at which the Person of the Eternal Word assumes a particular human nature.

If you wish to criticize Christianity, fine; but at least get the facts straight.

 

[horsegirl]

i think you’ve all been looking for this!
MARY-IS-GOD CATHOLIC MOVEMENT
maryisgod.org.

they are a group of Lay & Religious Catholics promoting Mary Worship and claiming it as the real third secret of Fatima.

 

[horsegirl]

warning:

They don’t have official approval by the Catholic Church.
If they did they would have posted it already.