Survey on priests' dislike of Missal may be inaccurate [CNA]

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Hamden, Conn., May 25, 2013 / 04:03 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- A survey of U.S. priests’ attitudes towards the new English translation of the Roman Missal showing “widespread skepticism” may be inaccurate because of its methods, according to a polling expert.
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On May 21, St. John's School of Theology, located in Collegeville, Minn., released its survey results saying that the majority of priests in America dislike the new Missal.

Of the some 1,500 priests who responded to the survey, 39 percent like the new text, and 59 percent dislike it, according to the Collegeville survey.

“All 178 Roman Catholic Latin rite dioceses in the U.S. were invited to take part in this study; 32 dioceses participated...in the period February 21 – May 6, 2013, priests in participating dioceses were invited to participate in the online survey via an email to all priests on the diocesan distribution list,” according to the survey's executive summary.

Peter Brown, who is assistant director of Quinnipiac University's Polling Institute, discussed polling procedures with CNA May 23. “Random sampling is the key to getting accurate poll results,” he said.

Since only a few dioceses chose to participate in the survey – just under 18 percent – and only some priests in those dioceses chose to respond, survey respondents were “self-selecting.”

“They participated not randomly, but because they were the ones that chose to respond,” Brown explained. “Self-selected samples are not generally thought of....they don't produce a random sample.”

Since polls rely on a small number of people to represent the attitudes or beliefs of a larger population, “you have to be absolutely sure that the random group is a random group.”

The Collegeville survey, Brown said, “might not meet those criteria” since its participants were self-selecting.

“It's very difficult to know exactly” in this particular case, he added, though he had noted that self-selecting samples are generally not random.

The survey's project manager, Chase Becker, is a graduate student in liturgical studies at St. John's School of Theology, and holds a bachelor's degree in philosophy. No ostensible polling experts were involved, and the survey's professional consultant was an associate professor of psychology at the institution.

The poll also had no indication of its margin of error.

The survey's results were welcomed by vocal critics of the new translation, such as Bishop Donald W. Trautman, Erie's bishop emeritus. He said the texts of the new Missal are “unintelligible and non-proclaimable” and have “lengthy sentences.”

And Bishop Robert H. Brom of San Diego complained that opening prayers in the newly translated Missal are “especially difficult” and said the Missal has “strange vocabulary.”

Meanwhile, Monsignor Andrew Wadsworth, executive director of the group responsible for preparing the new Missal, noted that “the 1,536 priests who responded may represent less than 3.7 percent of priests in the US...a significant fact in determining just how representative this consultation can be considered.”

Jeffrey Tucker, director of publications at the Church Music Association of America, noted that the survey “lacks demographic data,” failing to break down priests' response by their age and other factors.

“I suspect a generational split is at work here. It shouldn't really be surprising that some priests of an older generation are annoyed,” he wrote May 21 at The Chant Café website. “They came (to) terms with one way, received vast amounts of catechesis along these lines, and developed a more casual liturgical style to go with it, and now they are told to do it another way.”

The new translation of the Missal, which has been in use since Nov. 27, 2011, is more faithful to the Latin original than was the translation in use since the 1970s.

In accord with a 2001 document on the implementation of Vatican II, the new translation is meant to be closer not only to the sense of the original Latin, but its structure as well, and is less informal than the 1970s translation.

A poll conducted by the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate surveyed American Catholics, not only priests, about their perception of the new Missal last September. That poll showed that Catholics in the pews have overwhelmingly been positive about the new translation.

Seventy percent of those polled agreed that “the new translation of the Mass is a good thing.” And those who attend Mass at least weekly were even stronger in their approval, at 80 percent. The poll had a margin of err of plus or minus three percentage points.
feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/catholicnewsagency/dailynews?d=yIl2AUoC8zA
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/catholicnewsagency/dailynews/~4/OFnenFCh7Z8

Full article…
 
I for one am shocked that this report was biased (not actually shocked :rolleyes:)
 
Typical translation war. Both sides are biased. I happen to know one person in the article who spent months trying to prove simony on the IDEL’s side. So what else is news?
 
Yeah, St. John’s Collegeville isn’t really a reliable source for this kind of information.
 
Hamden, Conn., May 25, 2013 / 04:03 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- A survey of U.S. priests’ attitudes towards the new English translation of the Roman Missal showing “widespread skepticism” may be inaccurate because of its methods, according to a polling expert.
Code:
On May 21, St. John's School of Theology, located in Collegeville, Minn., released its survey results saying that the majority of priests in America dislike the new Missal.

Of the some 1,500 priests who responded to the survey, 39 percent like the new text, and 59 percent dislike it, according to the Collegeville survey.

“All 178 Roman Catholic Latin rite dioceses in the U.S. were invited to take part in this study; 32 dioceses participated...in the period February 21 – May 6, 2013, priests in participating dioceses were invited to participate in the online survey via an email to all priests on the diocesan distribution list,” according to the survey's executive summary.

Peter Brown, who is assistant director of Quinnipiac University's Polling Institute, discussed polling procedures with CNA May 23. “Random sampling is the key to getting accurate poll results,” he said.

Since only a few dioceses chose to participate in the survey – just under 18 percent – and only some priests in those dioceses chose to respond, survey respondents were “self-selecting.”

“They participated not randomly, but because they were the ones that chose to respond,” Brown explained. “Self-selected samples are not generally thought of....they don't produce a random sample.”

Since polls rely on a small number of people to represent the attitudes or beliefs of a larger population, “you have to be absolutely sure that the random group is a random group.”

The Collegeville survey, Brown said, “might not meet those criteria” since its participants were self-selecting.

“It's very difficult to know exactly” in this particular case, he added, though he had noted that self-selecting samples are generally not random.

The survey's project manager, Chase Becker, is a graduate student in liturgical studies at St. John's School of Theology, and holds a bachelor's degree in philosophy. No ostensible polling experts were involved, and the survey's professional consultant was an associate professor of psychology at the institution.

The poll also had no indication of its margin of error.

The survey's results were welcomed by vocal critics of the new translation, such as Bishop Donald W. Trautman, Erie's bishop emeritus. He said the texts of the new Missal are “unintelligible and non-proclaimable” and have “lengthy sentences.”

And Bishop Robert H. Brom of San Diego complained that opening prayers in the newly translated Missal are “especially difficult” and said the Missal has “strange vocabulary.”

Meanwhile, Monsignor Andrew Wadsworth, executive director of the group responsible for preparing the new Missal, noted that “the 1,536 priests who responded may represent less than 3.7 percent of priests in the US...a significant fact in determining just how representative this consultation can be considered.”

Jeffrey Tucker, director of publications at the Church Music Association of America, noted that the survey “lacks demographic data,” failing to break down priests' response by their age and other factors.

“I suspect a generational split is at work here. It shouldn't really be surprising that some priests of an older generation are annoyed,” he wrote May 21 at The Chant Café website. “They came (to) terms with one way, received vast amounts of catechesis along these lines, and developed a more casual liturgical style to go with it, and now they are told to do it another way.”

The new translation of the Missal, which has been in use since Nov. 27, 2011, is more faithful to the Latin original than was the translation in use since the 1970s.

In accord with a 2001 document on the implementation of Vatican II, the new translation is meant to be closer not only to the sense of the original Latin, but its structure as well, and is less informal than the 1970s translation.

A poll conducted by the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate surveyed American Catholics, not only priests, about their perception of the new Missal last September. That poll showed that Catholics in the pews have overwhelmingly been positive about the new translation.

Seventy percent of those polled agreed that “the new translation of the Mass is a good thing.” And those who attend Mass at least weekly were even stronger in their approval, at 80 percent. The poll had a margin of err of plus or minus three percentage points.
feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/catholicnewsagency/dailynews?d=yIl2AUoC8zA
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/catholicnewsagency/dailynews/~4/OFnenFCh7Z8

Full article…
**The fishwrap (catholic reporter :eek:) did an article on this a while back. Typically full of lies and still having that nice newspaper smell. Perfect for Perch. **
 
I agree that the changes are bothersome. Getting away from universal concept of Catholic “we” and reverting to "I’ is a little annoying. It’s been a year and we still have a bunch of conservative older parishioners refusing to say the new phrasing. I try to get it and sometimes is works but if I’m in the moment, if I’m letting the ritual transform me in a contemplative prayerful state, I often say the old phrasing and then the spiritual connection is broken. So going to church doesn’t have the regenerative aspects for me that it once had. While I have a great prayer life and can engage in regenerative prayer at home, I miss achieving a steady and calming prayerful state in church. Oh well. Nothing I can do about it. I know that my opinions are that of one person, one small brick in the foundation of a very large church. I can opine all I want in this forum, but nothing is going to change. Just venting I guess. Thanks for listening.
 
I agree that the changes are bothersome. Getting away from universal concept of Catholic “we” and reverting to "I’ is a little annoying. It’s been a year and we still have a bunch of conservative older parishioners refusing to say the new phrasing. I try to get it and sometimes is works but if I’m in the moment, if I’m letting the ritual transform me in a contemplative prayerful state, I often say the old phrasing and then the spiritual connection is broken. So going to church doesn’t have the regenerative aspects for me that it once had. While I have a great prayer life and can engage in regenerative prayer at home, I miss achieving a steady and calming prayerful state in church. Oh well. Nothing I can do about it. I know that my opinions are that of one person, one small brick in the foundation of a very large church. I can opine all I want in this forum, but nothing is going to change. Just venting I guess. Thanks for listening.
Doesn’t your parish have the typical “cheat sheets”? I’m really not getting why you’d find it hard to follow those. I find I’m still relying on them and hoping to know them by heart someday soon, but I’m good with the changes. I actually think these are more in line with the Latin and a positive change for sure.

I would venture to guess that the older parishioners are just tired of all the liturgical changes they have experienced. They are probably the pre-Vatican II parishioners, correct? I’m not giving them an excuse, but trying to at least understand why they would “refuse”.
 
At my parish, you can still hear people using the old responses, especially these two parts, I noticed again at Mass last evening.
V.
Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
R.
It is right and just
You can still hear various people responding with the old response.

and this;
V Behold the
Lamb of God,
behold him who takes away the sins of the world.
Blessed are those called to the supper
of the Lamb.
R: Lord, I am not worthy
that you should enter under my roof,
but only say the word
and my soul
shall be healed
You can still hear people reciting the old response

I think this translation isn’t all that great and is only confusing for many.

The older response was, " Lord I am not worthy to “RECEIVE,” you.

Isn’t that what we’re doing ?

Why mimic the words of the centurion in the Gospel ?

Jim.
 
I agree that the changes are bothersome. Getting away from universal concept of Catholic “we” and reverting to "I’ is a little annoying. It’s been a year and we still have a bunch of conservative older parishioners refusing to say the new phrasing. I try to get it and sometimes is works but if I’m in the moment, if I’m letting the ritual transform me in a contemplative prayerful state, I often say the old phrasing and then the spiritual connection is broken. So going to church doesn’t have the regenerative aspects for me that it once had. While I have a great prayer life and can engage in regenerative prayer at home, I miss achieving a steady and calming prayerful state in church. Oh well. Nothing I can do about it. I know that my opinions are that of one person, one small brick in the foundation of a very large church. I can opine all I want in this forum, but nothing is going to change. Just venting I guess. Thanks for listening.
Honest qusetion here: isn’t the “we believe” vs the “I believe” a very clear cut case of (intentional) mistranslation? (I always assumed influenced by the spirit of the 60s)…
 
Honest qusetion here: isn’t the “we believe” vs the “I believe” a very clear cut case of (intentional) mistranslation? (I always assumed influenced by the spirit of the 60s)…
Yet Pope Benedict XVI himself wrote in Spe Salvi that the story of salvation was never meant to be individualistic, but societal.

So, “We Believe,” at Mass was appropriate.

Also, Pope Benedict XVI in the 2nd volume of his book, Jesus of Nazareth,: explains why the words, Jesus died “for many,” actually means, “for all.”

Once again, the new translation using the word, “for many,” has to be explained to the people that it means, “for all.” This goes against the reform of Vatican II, that little explanation should be required for the people to understand the context of the words used in the Liturgy.

Jim
 
Honest qusetion here: isn’t the “we believe” vs the “I believe” a very clear cut case of (intentional) mistranslation? (I always assumed influenced by the spirit of the 60s)…
In this case, absolutely. Any first year Latin student can tell you that “we believe” was a mistranslation (and I can say this because I only took 1 semester of Latin). Here’s the text in Latin:
Credo in unum Deum
The verb in this sentence is Credo, from the verb “credere” (or “to believe”). The ‘o’ at the end of the word indicates it’s “person”, and in this case “Credo” is a 1st person singular indicative active verb. Therefore, the correct translation into english is “I believe” (or “I do believe” or “I am believing”). To get “we believe”, the proper Latin word is “credimus” (the ending -mus indicated a 1st person plural ending, aka “we”).

So translation-wise, “I” is right and “we” is wrong; there’s no way whether you are using a literal or dynamic translation that you should get “we” out of that phrase because the Latin is clearly using the 1st person.

As a side note, this phrase alone has an interesting nuance that isn’t picked up in the english. “Deum” of course means God (singular) in the accusative tone, so the preposition “in” in this case should actually be translated as “into”, but that would be an awkward construction of “I believe into one God”. The phrase itself is not indicating some kind of abstract feeling or idea, but an action or movement towards something. The accusative use of “in” indicates movement across some boundary (go into the house (in casam), as opposed to moving in the house (in casā)), so the phrase “Credo in unum Deum” is not just a statement, but a pledge or promise that you are moving yourself to a greater belief in God (think of Mark 9:24 - “I believe; help my unbelief!”).

We don’t normally think of “believe” as an verb of motion, but in the Latin it is being used in this way. Something to think about when you say the Creed today.
I agree that the changes are bothersome. Getting away from universal concept of Catholic “we” and reverting to "I’ is a little annoying.
I think the I makes more sense actually.

At that moment in the Mass, we are called on to profess our faith. As a person, I say that this is what I believe as a personal statement of faith. Saying “we believe” almost changes the tone of what’s going on from “Let us profess our faith” to “Let’s all stand and say our Mission Statement”.
Yet Pope Benedict XVI himself wrote in Spe Salvi that the story of salvation was never meant to be individualistic, but societal.

So, “We Believe,” at Mass was appropriate.
Except that it was a blatant mistranslation of the Latin.
 
Honest qusetion here: isn’t the “we believe” vs the “I believe” a very clear cut case of (intentional) mistranslation? (I always assumed influenced by the spirit of the 60s)…
Actually in the Latin, there is no “we” (nos) or “I” (ego). Credo is simply first person singular. In the Vulgate Christ uses “ego” as in “ego sum via et veritas et vita.” The ego is for emphasis only. In the English, unlike some other languages, there is no choice except to emphasize the first person singular and it seems the “I believe” makes the statement a little more, well, egostical. It’s not an intentional mistranslation IMO. Either way you will have problems. English with its weakness in subjunctives, demonstratives, et alia, is simply a poor language for expressing Catholic beliefs. Inflective languages have a big advantage in this respect.
 
At my parish, you can still hear people using the old responses, especially these two parts, I noticed again at Mass last evening.

You can still hear various people responding with the old response.

and this;

You can still hear people reciting the old response

I think this translation isn’t all that great and is only confusing for many.

The older response was, " Lord I am not worthy to “RECEIVE,” you.

Isn’t that what we’re doing ?

Why mimic the words of the centurion in the Gospel ?

Jim.
Because that is what was said by the priest in Latin for hundreds of years?

If you attend a Latin mass you will see this is exactly what the priest says (well, the English translation of what he says).

I think it’s funny how so many are calling the prior responses “older” when in fact they were the “newer” responses. The current responses are more in line with the “older” responses.
 
Lucky7
Because that is what was said by the priest in Latin for hundreds of years?
Sure, based on the understanding of people who used Latin on a regular basis hundreds of years before.

From a spiritual point of view for worship, the literal translation is flawed and probably not what Pope John Paul II intended when he asked for a new English Translation.
If you attend a Latin mass you will see this is exactly what the priest says (well, the English translation of what he says).
So what that it was what the Latin says ?

The Novus Ordo is a new format and which should be used to help a person in the pew easily understand the context of the words being expressed.
I think it’s funny how so many are calling the prior responses “older” when in fact they were the “newer” responses. The current responses are more in line with the “older” responses.
The translation was to express the Sacredness of the words said, not the literal translation of Latin to English.

Not worthy to receive you, makes more sense to the person about to receive Holy Communion, than not worthy to receive you under my roof does.

Jim
 
From a spiritual point of view for worship, the literal translation is flawed …
Lucky 7 presents good points but in your defense the following may also be applicable:

Nec verbum verbo curabis reddere fidus interpres. - Horace

(As a true translator you will take care not to translate word for word.)

The fear of mistranslation was probably why the Latin Mass was never said in the vernacular till circa 1965.

Good discussion.
 
I don’t know what priests think of the new English translation, but I still don’t like it, and it has been around for over a year. I get the feeling that it must have been made up by church officials who don’t speak English as their first language. It sounds very awkward and has no poetic sense whatsoever.
 
I don’t know what priests think of the new English translation, but I still don’t like it, and it has been around for over a year. I get the feeling that it must have been made up by church officials who don’t speak English as their first language. It sounds very awkward and has no poetic sense whatsoever.
Maybe it’s not perfect, poetic english (disclaimer: I’m took engineering and not english, so I couldn’t tell you what perfect poetic english sounded like if it hit me in the face), but it’s miles above the old translation. Take today’s collect:
Old version:
Father,
you sent your Word to bring us truth
and your Spirit to make us holy.
Through them we come to know the mystery of your life.
Help us to worship you, one God in three Persons,
by proclaiming and living our faith in you.
New version:
God our Father, who by sending into the world
the Word of truth and the Spirit of sanctification
made known to the human race your wondrous mystery,
grant us, we pray, that in professing the true faith,
we may acknowledge the Trinity of eternal glory
and adore your Unity, powerful in majesty.
It get’s even worse on something like an Easter weekday. Take the 7th Monday of Easter (which was the 13th of May):
Old version:
Lord,
send the power of your Holy Spirit upon us
that we may remain faithful
and do your will in our daily lives.
New version:
May the power of the Holy Spirit
come to us, we pray, O Lord,
that we may keep your will faithfully in mind
and express it in a devout way of life.
The newer translations are giving more “meat” to the phrase and the old translations seem to have often changed the tone of the prayer.
 
Lucky7

Sure, based on the understanding of people who used Latin on a regular basis hundreds of years before.

From a spiritual point of view for worship, the literal translation is flawed and probably not what Pope John Paul II intended when he asked for a new English Translation.

So what that it was what the Latin says ?

The Novus Ordo is a new format and which should be used to help a person in the pew easily understand the context of the words being expressed.

The translation was to express the Sacredness of the words said, not the literal translation of Latin to English.

Not worthy to receive you, makes more sense to the person about to receive Holy Communion, than not worthy to receive you under my roof does.

Jim
I’m with you there, Jim. This is the most abrupt and ugly moment of the updated translation. At the most reverent moment of the Mass, this clunky language disturbs the moment’s beauty every time for me.

I’m empathetic to those who miss the prior Missal. Aesthetics are not always universal, but this translation’s language is lacking the beauty, rhythm, and personal connection that was present before.
 
Lucky 7 presents good points but in your defense the following may also be applicable:

Nec verbum verbo curabis reddere fidus interpres. - Horace

(As a true translator you will take care not to translate word for word.)

The fear of mistranslation was probably why the Latin Mass was never said in the vernacular till circa 1965.

Good discussion.
Sure. More and more I question why we ever “went vernacular” in the first place. And that’s only the least of my questions lately.

I agree that the “under my roof” version is not as flowing, but I will take accuracy over feeling good about what I say. The fact that this is exactly what priests said for hundreds of years is good enough for me.
 
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