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ZMystiCat
Guest
What is a better one?
Survey reveals why Catholics leave Church, including because of watered down teaching
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jack63
Guest
I thought about this one…it is no doubt an interesting and sincere opinion. However…I struggle with this from many directions.
First the church is not perfect. My belief is that Jesus was perfect, but obviously the Catholic Church is not…look at the abuse crisis and its handling. What exactly are people being hypocrites about by being Catholic? Are they going around saying that the Catholic Church is perfect? They should never have been doing this to begin with.
Second, before people decide they can’t be Catholic because of a belief system. They better understand that belief system for themselves. That means read the Catechism related to specific issues. There have been times I’ve heard progressive homilies espousing beliefs that were just not in the CCC. Recently I hear conservatives espousing believes that are just not in the CCC. Countless times people come hear on CAF and say “I’ve heard such and such”. Several people will give links to the CCC saying this is just not what the Catholic Church believes. People really need to read and understand for themselves.
Personally, I would not have known how to dig into and read parts of the CCC without reading some of the discussions on this site. I get frustrated when I hear people say “I’m not Catholic because…”, and I know what is holding them back has little to nothing to do with the Catholic faith.
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Pattylt
Guest
I’ve never heard anyone saying they expect the Church to be perfect. Those that left felt themselves to be hypocrites if they stayed, not that the Church itself was hypocritical.
I have no way to judge how well they understood catholic teaching. The ones that left seem to feel they understood the teachings but just couldn’t agree with certain points. I certainly wouldn’t presume that just because they left they must not have understood the teaching. I assume they did understand it and couldn’t agree with it.
Since they often mentioned the teaching in the CCC, they had, at the least, read it! None that I know left lightly or quickly. It was often a slow painful process from their own descriptions.
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jack63
Guest
My experience has been very different even from reasonably well educated people. They just didn’t know the teaching.
…and yes that would be painful to see somebody who was raised Catholic stop believing and leave because of something that the CCC said. It is is surprising to hear this happened…
…I mean my impression is that in a few things the CCC is very specific and very clear…as it should be, but on many things it surprisingly vague and willing to leave things up to interpretation. I had the expectation the CCC would be like a book that lists laws. It is not like that at all. What did I know?!
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on_the_hill
Guest
That’s like saying, “My cardiologist is the best in the business. I scheduled my root canal with him.”
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ATraveller
Guest
The survey had many questions that were open-ended and not easily quantifiable.
Those quotes were responses from the survey. But since I actually have a copy of the book, I know LSN only isolated the quotes they agree with. The other quotes ranged from people feeling no connection with their parishes and lonely to people who just don’t believe in God anymore or don’t agree with the doctrines.
One finding LSN didn’t mention, which I found strange they wouldn’t, was that if the Catholic Church became like Mainline Protestantism, very few who left would even bother returning even if all of those changes occurred.
So, ultimately, like many other denominations in Protestantism, this is what it comes down to on liberalisation:
You can liberalize and gain a few who left and force a mass exodus of the most loyal and devout OR You refuse to change and gain none who left but retain the loyal and devout.
What the book recommends is more efforts in trying to make parishes more friendly and help people connect and better disciple-making process.
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Interesting article!
It illustrated what I had felt and lived, as a teenager, young adult, and even when I worked in a Catholic school.
While, I was convinced bt the Church’s positions on “hard” topics, I was not at ease and afraid if someone brings them to me, because I know this person would be critical and it would become conflictual. I was very ashamed, it is such a taboo.
The worst is that the people who led us in Church’s ministries were silents on this, or if they brings it it is to warned us against it. It is counter productive, but it showed that Church’s active members are not convinced at all. As we are fallen humans, I saw also situations that contradicts what the Church teach.
It is very hard, for a young person who already struggle between faith and the world to know what attitude to take when his Church’s fellows act as if they are of this world.
the only times, theses hard topics were treated ending like that:
Yet, the fact the Church’s members contradicts the Church, the lack of trust in Herself, the hypocrisy of the many who choose to believe and live as the world teach us, does not help us. It destroys us, leave many people away.
We need coherence, support to each others in front of the world, exigence, and trust that we can live according to what we preach.
The world has fallen away, do not let us all fall too without doing nothing.
It illustrated what I had felt and lived, as a teenager, young adult, and even when I worked in a Catholic school.
While, I was convinced bt the Church’s positions on “hard” topics, I was not at ease and afraid if someone brings them to me, because I know this person would be critical and it would become conflictual. I was very ashamed, it is such a taboo.
The worst is that the people who led us in Church’s ministries were silents on this, or if they brings it it is to warned us against it. It is counter productive, but it showed that Church’s active members are not convinced at all. As we are fallen humans, I saw also situations that contradicts what the Church teach.
It is very hard, for a young person who already struggle between faith and the world to know what attitude to take when his Church’s fellows act as if they are of this world.
the only times, theses hard topics were treated ending like that:
- I was a member of a group of discussion of high school Catholics, inside the the Church, lead by a Catholic student. The only time the topic of “sexuality” was treated it was when our leader explain us that the Church’s teaching are unpractical, and cannot be lived- because we will be in relationship with secular people who would not see things like that- and because of all the possible negative consequences of trying to live sexuality according to church’s view. She clearly warned us against Catholic’s views because she said it was her duty to save us from it!
- When I was a teenager too, the only time my pastor speak during an homily of the topic of “sexuality” it was for being critical of the Church that was far from the people…It was too much for me, who struggle a lot to lived my faith and go to Church alone… I cannot support this betrayal from the “inside”. I leave that church without anybody saw me (i was late) and became parish “homeless” for many of my formative years…
Yet, the fact the Church’s members contradicts the Church, the lack of trust in Herself, the hypocrisy of the many who choose to believe and live as the world teach us, does not help us. It destroys us, leave many people away.
We need coherence, support to each others in front of the world, exigence, and trust that we can live according to what we preach.
The world has fallen away, do not let us all fall too without doing nothing.
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Tolle_Lege
Guest
They are truly doing God’s work. Somebody has to bring these topics to light.
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QwertyGirl
Guest
I am surprised and disappointed at the number of posts in this thread indicating the poster is willing to label someone else “lazy” in their spiritual journey. It is presumptuous and uncharitable. The willingness to view people like that is quite disappointing.
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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
A lot of people already are. They could use a reform in their strategies because they do nobody much good. I would concede if there was one good thing they were doing for faithful Catholics, but they aren’t.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I was lazy as heck myself and many of my friends will freely say the same.
It’s hardly insulting when people acknowledge it’s the truth.
Like I said, I don’t know these big thoughtful seeker people, other than seeing posts on CAF by some of them.
It’s hardly insulting when people acknowledge it’s the truth.
Like I said, I don’t know these big thoughtful seeker people, other than seeing posts on CAF by some of them.
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ATraveller
Guest
I should ask this: do numbers matter? No.
Jesus said to make disciples, not have as many people in your churches and meet quotas. It’s time to go back to what being a “disciple” means. Also, the Church’s one foundation is Jesus Christ. The Church, and I say this from an Evangelical POV, doesn’t belong to us or anyone else except God Himself. I don’t get to say, well, society changed, therefore I have the right to change the Church, which doesn’t belong to me, to suit popular opinion.
Jesus said to make disciples, not have as many people in your churches and meet quotas. It’s time to go back to what being a “disciple” means. Also, the Church’s one foundation is Jesus Christ. The Church, and I say this from an Evangelical POV, doesn’t belong to us or anyone else except God Himself. I don’t get to say, well, society changed, therefore I have the right to change the Church, which doesn’t belong to me, to suit popular opinion.
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ZMystiCat
Guest
I don’t think bias is necessarily their problem. That is, they might have certain issues that they care more about, and their opinions might be clearly biased, but they could still be a decent news site.
The problem is that their journalism is just incredibly shoddy. You can have a biased site that handles information with care and keeps a clear line between reporting on an issue and offering commentary on it. LifeSite doesn’t even try to do the latter, and they’re not very good at doing the former.
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jack63
Guest
@QwertyGirl
Hi Qwerty!
Perhaps people aren’t “rebellious” enough. “Rebellious” in the sense that they can read and think about things for themselves without somebody looking over their shoulder telling them what to read and think.
On some level, I see Jesus as the the ultimate rebel. He was destined to ignore the opinions of the world. It is something to model and strive for.
Hi Qwerty!
I agree lazy isn’t the right word and it’s not true for most people who aren’t religious and who are genuinely searching.
Perhaps people aren’t “rebellious” enough. “Rebellious” in the sense that they can read and think about things for themselves without somebody looking over their shoulder telling them what to read and think.
On some level, I see Jesus as the the ultimate rebel. He was destined to ignore the opinions of the world. It is something to model and strive for.
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ATraveller
Guest
This was published this morning in a left-leaning magazine:
www.theatlantic.com
They Tried to Start a Church Without God. For a While, It Worked.
Secular organizers started their own congregations. But to succeed, they need to do a better job of imitating religion.
www.theatlantic.com
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I think the majority of people, religious, or more, non-religious are somewhat spiritually lazy.
Laziness is a close to a basic instinct. Not producing too much efforts to not need to much mutrition…
One fellow student, raised in the catholic faith, said to me, that he choose to not continuing to practice as an adult because it is too difficult to be a catholic in this secular world…he admits he choose the easier option. He believe that people that staying are admirables because it is very difficult.
Laziness is a close to a basic instinct. Not producing too much efforts to not need to much mutrition…
One fellow student, raised in the catholic faith, said to me, that he choose to not continuing to practice as an adult because it is too difficult to be a catholic in this secular world…he admits he choose the easier option. He believe that people that staying are admirables because it is very difficult.
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QwertyGirl
Guest
Well I am not lazy.
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jeannetherese
Guest
Given the discussion of orthodoxy vs conforming to the times, readers might find this excerpt from the article to be of interest:
" He cited a study by Richard Sosis, an anthropologist at the University of Connecticut who studied 200 American communes founded in the 19th century. Sosis found that 39 percent of religious communes were still functioning 20 years after their start, but only 6 percent of secular communes were alive after the same amount of time. And he determined that a single variable was making this difference: the number of sacrifices—such as giving up alcohol, following a dress code, or fasting—that each commune demanded of its members.
For religious communes, the more sacrifices demanded, the longer they lasted; however, this connection didn’t hold for secular communes. The implication, Norenzayan said, was that challenging rituals and taxing rules work only when they’re part of something sacred; once the veil of sacrality is removed, people no longer care to commit to things that demand their time and dedication. “If it’s ‘Come and go as you wish,’ that’s not going to work,” he said. Even if secular congregations could create a sense of the sacred, they tend to attract people who are explicitly looking for a community without costly rituals—one that lets you do what you want."
www.theatlantic.com
" He cited a study by Richard Sosis, an anthropologist at the University of Connecticut who studied 200 American communes founded in the 19th century. Sosis found that 39 percent of religious communes were still functioning 20 years after their start, but only 6 percent of secular communes were alive after the same amount of time. And he determined that a single variable was making this difference: the number of sacrifices—such as giving up alcohol, following a dress code, or fasting—that each commune demanded of its members.
For religious communes, the more sacrifices demanded, the longer they lasted; however, this connection didn’t hold for secular communes. The implication, Norenzayan said, was that challenging rituals and taxing rules work only when they’re part of something sacred; once the veil of sacrality is removed, people no longer care to commit to things that demand their time and dedication. “If it’s ‘Come and go as you wish,’ that’s not going to work,” he said. Even if secular congregations could create a sense of the sacred, they tend to attract people who are explicitly looking for a community without costly rituals—one that lets you do what you want."
They Tried to Start a Church Without God. For a While, It Worked.
Secular organizers started their own congregations. But to succeed, they need to do a better job of imitating religion.
www.theatlantic.com
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Padres1969
Guest
Interesting, as my experience has been the opposite. Most ex-Catholics I know, myself included, left when we learned more about Catholic teaching then our formation had given us.
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De_Maria
Guest
Let’s put your knowledge to the test. What is it that you learned above and beyond what your formation taught you, which led you away from the Church?
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