Survey shows Catholic priests don’t like Mass changes

[sw85]

Here’s the Collect for Pentecost Sunday under three different translations:

ORIGINAL LATIN

Deus, qui sacramento festivitatis hodiernae universam Ecclesiam tuam in omni gente et natione sanctificas, in totam mundi latitudinem Spiritus Sancti dona defunde, et, quod inter ipsa evangelicae praedicationis exordia operata est divina dignatio, nunc quoque per credentium corda perfunde.

CORRECTED TRANSLATION
O God, who by the mystery of today’s great feast sanctify your whole Church in every people and nation, pour out, we pray, the gifts of the Holy Spirit across the face of the earth and, with the divine grace that was at work when the Gospel was first proclaimed, fill now once more the hearts of believers.

ORIGINAL ICEL TRANSLATION
God our Father, let the Spirit you sent on your Church to begin the teaching of the gospel continue to work in the world through the hearts of all who believe.

Which of these two ICEL translations is more faithful to the original Latin? Which more deeply expresses the richness of the faith? Which sounds like it could’ve been written by a precocious child? Which, in short, is beautiful?

Hint: there’s a right answer.

 

[fix]

How much liberal bias can one pack into a single “news” story? Too funny.

 

[kag1982]

LOL, you realize of course, that your statements above are like saying you are mad that the FDA’s continued work to approve drugs and regulated food has prevented the government from fixing its IRS problem. Completely different “agencies” or congregations where the exercise of one does not prevent the other from working. (Not to mention, what exactly do you want the curia to do in regards to the abuse? Much work and corrective action has already come, that you fail to see it, is not the Vatican’s problem).

The Mass and its translation frankly weren’t a problem. Sexual abuse and the Curia were. And if enough corrective action had been taken, then the huge scandal wouldn’t have happened a year ago and the Cardinals wouldn’t have gone so anti-establishment with their choice for Pope. (And yes Francis strikes me as a pretty solid rebuke of the Curia.). It seems to me that there was a tunnel vision focus on nitpicky liturgy things and everything else went to the wayside.

 

[agnes_therese]

Here’s the Collect for Pentecost Sunday under three different translations:

ORIGINAL LATIN

Deus, qui sacramento festivitatis hodiernae universam Ecclesiam tuam in omni gente et natione sanctificas, in totam mundi latitudinem Spiritus Sancti dona defunde, et, quod inter ipsa evangelicae praedicationis exordia operata est divina dignatio, nunc quoque per credentium corda perfunde.

CORRECTED TRANSLATION
O God, who by the mystery of today’s great feast sanctify your whole Church in every people and nation, pour out, we pray, the gifts of the Holy Spirit across the face of the earth and, with the divine grace that was at work when the Gospel was first proclaimed, fill now once more the hearts of believers.

ORIGINAL ICEL TRANSLATION
God our Father, let the Spirit you sent on your Church to begin the teaching of the gospel continue to work in the world through the hearts of all who believe.

Which of these two ICEL translations is more faithful to the original Latin? Which more deeply expresses the richness of the faith? Which sounds like it could’ve been written by a precocious child? Which, in short, is beautiful?

Hint: there’s a right answer.

Yes, there is! I love the revision, especially the collects. Liturgy should be beautiful.

 

[Cider]

Go back to Latin and eliminate the translation wars.

 

[fix]

Go back to Latin and eliminate the translation wars.

The cry babies would scream.

 

[jilly4ski]

The Mass and its translation frankly weren’t a problem. Sexual abuse and the Curia were. And if enough corrective action had been taken, then the huge scandal wouldn’t have happened a year ago and the Cardinals wouldn’t have gone so anti-establishment with their choice for Pope. (And yes Francis strikes me as a pretty solid rebuke of the Curia.). It seems to me that the tunnel vision focus on nitpicky liturgy things and everything else went to the wayside.

First, what huge scandal a year ago? (Most of the abuse took place decades ago).

And to get back on topic, yes the liturgy and the translation were a problem. A problem because the translation was not accurately expressing our faith. (Christ died for many, because not all will chose to accept him). A faith with by the way, which calls abuse and the exploitation of children evil. The creed is an expression of what we believe, its accuracy is essential to our faith, and that is anything but nitpicky.

I’m rather suspicious of the survey takers. St. John’s theology (and Saint John’s university) is not known for its ability to conduct scientific research, (nor is it known for its orthodoxy).

I suppose if the good father’s don’t like the new translation, they can always use Latin.

 

[kag1982]

First, what huge scandal a year ago? (Most of the abuse took place decades ago).

And to get back on topic, yes the liturgy and the translation were a problem. A problem because the translation was not accurately expressing our faith. (Christ died for many, because not all will chose to accept him). A faith with by the way, which calls abuse and the exploitation of children evil. The creed is an expression of what we believe, its accuracy is essential to our faith, and that is anything but nitpicky.

I’m rather suspicious of the survey takers. St. John’s theology (and Saint John’s university) is not known for its ability to conduct scientific research, (nor is it known for its orthodoxy).

I suppose if the good father’s don’t like the new translation, they can always use Latin.

Remember when the butler stole the Pope’s private papers and leaked them to the press?
And yes… The whole thing is quite nitpicky. Using a more “accurate” translation of the Missal or Latin isn’t going to stop abuser priests or corrupt Vatican officials. In fact, the liturgy wars have prevented the Church from addressing the real issues that it is facing.

 

[Tigg]

Go back to Latin and eliminate the translation wars.

Go back to Latin and also eliminate the incessant bi-lingulism, which in our parish, only serves to keep us isolated from one another and fails to address all ethnic groups.

 

[derfrel]

From all that I have been reading it would seem that Catholics are likely to have more changes ahead in regard to the Mass. When we consider the changes that the world is going through and what might be ahead I should think that will inevitably have an effect on the Mass in general. Also the new Pope may have some influence in some direction. But with the help of prayer and the explanations which will be made my feeling it that the changes to come will be helpful and generally rewarding.

 

[Suudy]

Go back to Latin and also eliminate the incessant bi-lingulism, which in our parish, only serves to keep us isolated from one another and fails to address all ethnic groups.

My friend is married to a self-described ex-Catholic (she’s of Hispanic origin in Texas). In discussions with him alone, he said she told him that the Church has Spanish masses to intentionally keep Hispanics away from the white people. That the Church doesn’t want co-mingling of “undesirable groups”, and so it has masses in Spanish, Polish, etc. I was completely taken aback and shocked. How many others think the same way?

Fortunately, my other friends and I quickly corrected him. He reported back to us that in his discussion with his wife that what she meant was “certain priests” did this, and not the Church in general. And while that may be possible, at least she conceded it wasn’t the Church

But going back to a Latin mass would certainly eliminate this erroneous (and scandalous) thinking.

 

[ProVobis]

Which of these two ICEL translations is more faithful to the original Latin? Which more deeply expresses the richness of the faith? Which sounds like it could’ve been written by a precocious child? Which, in short, is beautiful?

Hint: there’s a right answer.

Yes, but given enough time, there could be a translation even closer to the Latin than either of those. That’s the point, though, it will never equal the original Latin in nuance, poetry, and meaning. Besides, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and chances are someone attending Spanish Masses solely wouldn’t know the difference in English translations or care for its/their beauty.

 

[ProVobis]

And yes… The whole thing is quite nitpicky.

Is it nitpicky to point out that the Vatican has translated “colere” as “worship” on its own website and Catholics get attacked by Protestants for “worshipping” Mary?

 

[kag1982]

Is it nitpicky to point out that the Vatican has translated “colere” as “worship” on its own website and Catholics get attacked by Protestants for “worshipping” Mary?

Why does the Vatican care what a tiny minority of anti-Catholic Evangelicals think about the Church? And yes, the fact that this is what the Vatican has been obsessed with over the past decade rather than cleaning up its act is nitpicky. A Church that doesn’t open itself up into the world tends to get stale.

 

[ProVobis]

Why does the Vatican care what a tiny minority of anti-Catholic Evangelicals think about the Church? And yes, the fact that this is what the Vatican has been obsessed with over the past decade rather than cleaning up its act is nitpicky. A Church that doesn’t open itself up into the world tends to get stale.

The 60’s were full of obsessions, including trying to change many of the things the Church stood for. More than clerics were responsible for that.

 

[dans0622]

Why does the Vatican care what a tiny minority of anti-Catholic Evangelicals think about the Church? And yes, the fact that this is what the Vatican has been obsessed with over the past decade rather than cleaning up its act is nitpicky. A Church that doesn’t open itself up into the world tends to get stale.

Hello,

“The Vatican” should care when such people are led into error, and therefore flee from the Church, due to misleading translations made by, or used by, “the Vatican.” I’d also suggest that your use of “obsession” is without merit and don’t know what “opening up to the world” has to do with anything.

As for the topic of the translations–I’m not surprised that priests “don’t like” the changes. It’s harder to “say Mass” now because of the changes themselves and the more complex sentence structure, vocabulary, etc.

Dan

 

[curlycool89]

Yes, but given enough time, there could be a translation even closer to the Latin than either of those. That’s the point, though, it will never equal the original Latin in nuance, poetry, and meaning. Besides, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and chances are someone attending Spanish Masses solely wouldn’t know the difference in English translations or care for its/their beauty.

The same thing also applies to the Latin.

I took a semester of Latin, and I find it to be an incredibly clunky language. I can see how it could appeal to language wonks though, as it is an extremely wonky language. I mean, is there really a need for 4.5 verb conjugations and “5” noun declensions when you still end up with homonyms? Not to mention that word order is optional (A suggestion at most. If you randomly scramble the words in a Latin sentence, it is still technically speaking grammatically correct).

Comparatively, I found French (of which I took one semester in high school) to be a much more beautiful language. The only thing I liked Latin better for than French was that you always pronounce all the letters in (Classical) Latin, whereas in French you sometimes drop half the word.

 

[sw85]

Yes, but given enough time, there could be a translation even closer to the Latin than either of those. That’s the point, though, it will never equal the original Latin in nuance, poetry, and meaning.

If your point is “therefore we shouldn’t bother with English translations,” yes, I agree. English is a hideous barbarian tongue largely unsuited to divine worship.

Besides, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder

You mean the perception of beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which is just tautological. Beauty itself is an objective fact, being, along with truth and virtue, different expressions of goodness. To deny the objectivity of beauty, really, is to indulge in a species of moral relativism.

and chances are someone attending Spanish Masses solely wouldn’t know the difference in English translations or care for its/their beauty.

I’m not sure what the point of this statement is supposed to be.

 

[kag1982]

Hello,

“The Vatican” should care when such people are led into error, and therefore flee from the Church, due to misleading translations made by, or used by, “the Vatican.” I’d also suggest that your use of “obsession” is without merit and don’t know what “opening up to the world” has to do with anything.

As for the topic of the translations–I’m not surprised that priests “don’t like” the changes. It’s harder to “say Mass” now because of the changes themselves and the more complex sentence structure, vocabulary, etc.

Dan

The Evangelicals upset with something like that are generally fundamentalist types. They really don’t like the Church to begin with. They are just sniffing for reasons to not like the Church.
And here is the big picture… This is inside baseball stuff. It makes the Church look insular. People spend most of their lives outside of their parish and the Mass. What is more important is how people live most of their lives. It is important that we provide a good Christian witness during these times. When we worry about something as trivial as Missal translations, we have less time to worry about being good people. The latter is more important than the former.

And yes the whole obsession on the trivial led the Vatican to forget the big picture decisive action against bishops like Mahoney who covered up child abuse or against corrupt Curia officials was more important than what language the Mass is said in.

 

[ProVobis]

If your point is “therefore we shouldn’t bother with English translations,” yes, I agree. English is a hideous barbarian tongue largely unsuited to divine worship.

I hope you’re not being sarcastic, because this is something I would say. And I’ll concede or drop the rest of my argument.