Survivors Angered by Pope's Decision to Reject Irish Bishops' Resignation

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CMatt25 said:
If they have no problem then they should not have put the 2 on the same list. 🤷

“what astonished many Catholics was the inclusion of the attempt to ordain women in a list of the “more grave delicts,” or offenses, which included pedophilia”

nytimes.com/2010/07/16/world/europe/16vatican.html
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Actually, you need to go to the source, before you repeat such nonsense.😛
Art. 5

The more grave delict of the attempted sacred ordination of a woman is also reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:
Code: 
  1°  With due regard for 	[can. 1378](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P54.HTM) of the Code of Canon Law, both the one who  attempts to confer sacred ordination on a woman, and she who attempts to receive  sacred ordination, incurs a *latae sententiae* excommunication reserved to  the Apostolic See.
  2° If the one attempting to confer sacred ordination, or the woman who attempts  to receive sacred ordination, is a member of the Christian faithful subject to  the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, with due regard for can. 1443 of  that Code, he or she is to be punished by major excommunication reserved to the  Apostolic See.
  3° If the guilty party is a cleric he may be punished by dismissal or deposition[31].
Art. 6

§ 1. The more grave delicts against morals which are reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith are:
Code: 
  1° the delict against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue committed by a  cleric with a minor below the age of eighteen years; in this case, a person who  habitually lacks the use of reason is to be considered equivalent to a minor.
  2° the acquisition, possession, or distribution by a cleric of pornographic  images of minors under the age of fourteen, for purposes of sexual  gratification, by whatever means or using whatever technology;
§ 2. A cleric who commits the delicts mentioned above in § 1 is to be punished according to the gravity of his crime, not excluding dismissal or deposition.
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As can be seen Article 5 deals with Sacramental Canon - Article 6 Deals with Morals

vatican.va/resources/resources_norme_en.html
 
kimmielittle said:
👍👍

Actually, the abuses to Native People continued past adulthood. As an adult you were no longer in school, but you had no home to go back too. With no money, no land, you were placed into servitude. at the direction of the Church.

If we don’t want to forgive not forget or drop our guards ] - we never will heal. AND no matter what happened bad to me…no matter if I get an apology -.It remains my individual responsibility, to heal. No one ELSE has that power or responsibility.

AND that is the message I fail to see from this group. I see only the “Place the Blame” and not even equally ] . You cant tell me that parishioners didn’t know of the abuses going on at Magdeline laundries - are they not the body of the Church? Why aren’t they or the Irish Government being called for their complicity, equally?

Does it seem, without calling ALL accountable, …that this group has an agenda to incite - not heal? I believe so.
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You bring up an interesting point. Why do people who may know what is going on, say nothing? I visited the Dachau prison camp and was amazed that it was located right in the middle of the town. It had a page fence around it and one could look right in. It wasn’t out in forest where no one went. Studies have been done on this very subject. The studies I have read have gone back the the authoritarian type personality. It much more complicated than the simple explanation of; if the person in authority says its ok, than it’s ok. I’m not a pschologist but I do play on on TV (only kidding) But I really did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
 
kimmielittle said:
As can be seen Article 5 deals with Sacramental Canon - Article 6 Deals with Morals
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Yes and they’re both placed in the same boat as a “more grave delict”. **If **we’re going to call attempted ordination of women a "more grave delict, then child abuse or certainly covering it up perhaps should instead have been a more graver delict. (Poor grammar there 😛 but you get it I’m certain!) Peace.
 
CMatt25 said:
Yes and they’re both placed in the same boat as a “more grave delict”. **If **we’re going to call attempted ordination of women a "more grave delict, then child abuse or certainly covering it up perhaps should instead have been a more graver delict. (Poor grammar there 😛 but you get it I’m certain!) Peace.
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If I were willing to allow the NYTimes to teach me Catholicism - I might understand your point - But I’m not.

By their and your reasoning,these have problems, as well.

The Commandments of God are these ten:
  1. I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
  2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
  3. Remember thou keep holy the Lord‘s Day.
  4. Honor thy father and thy mother.
  5. Thou shall not kill.
  6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  7. Thou shalt not steal.
  8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
  9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.
ALL ten are grave sins - each and every one causes a separation of soul.
However, we know that coveting doesn’t necessarily mean that I take anothers life.
Are they not listed together - as grave sins?

Just as the list of articles each article is a separate ] ALL “grave delicts”, in The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, according to art. 52 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus[1],

As for me, I don’t / won’t allow the NYTimes, to think for me.🙂 Especially in an op-ed by RACHEL DONADIO, Laurie Goodstein contributed reporting from New York, and Gaia Pianigiani from Rome, who I have no idea who they are… OR if they are even Catholic. But you are free to believe, what you wish, taught by who you wish - just don’t try to sell me it as fact.🙂
 
feargalmac said:
I think people should read David Quinn in the Irish Independentto see a different perspective on the issue in Dublin.
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Thanks for posingt this. It was an interesting article. At the end of the article I noticed it was an editorial comment. I’m not saying this guy is wrong, at all, but people can write whatever they want in an editorial and many don’t get corrected ( if they are wrong) for a long time. But it definetly is a different persceptive from what I’ve read. I think the good people of Ireland have a better grasp of their own situation than I do.
 
kimmielittle said:
If I were willing to allow the NYTimes to teach me Catholicism - I might understand your point - But I’m not.

By their and your reasoning,these have problems, as well.

The Commandments of God are these ten:
  1. I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
  2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
  3. Remember thou keep holy the Lord‘s Day.
  4. Honor thy father and thy mother.
  5. Thou shall not kill.
  6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  7. Thou shalt not steal.
  8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
  9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.
ALL ten are grave sins - each and every one causes a separation of soul.
However, we know that coveting doesn’t necessarily mean that I take anothers life.
Are they not listed together - as grave sins?

Just as the list of articles each article is a separate ] ALL “grave delicts”, in The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, according to art. 52 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus[1],

As for me, I don’t / won’t allow the NYTimes, to think for me.🙂 Especially in an op-ed by RACHEL DONADIO, Laurie Goodstein contributed reporting from New York, and Gaia Pianigiani from Rome, who I have no idea who they are… OR if they are even Catholic. But you are free to believe, what you wish, taught by who you wish - just don’t try to sell me it as fact.🙂
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this was not an op-ed piece of journalism. Last I heard non catholics also report news stories. Don’t worry, Kimmie, no one is trying to slip one past you.
 
Via_Dolorosa said:
Thanks for posingt this. It was an interesting article. At the end of the article I noticed it was an editorial comment. I’m not saying this guy is wrong, at all, but people can write whatever they want in an editorial and many don’t get corrected ( if they are wrong) for a long time. But it definetly is a different persceptive from what I’ve read. I think the good people of Ireland have a better grasp of their own situation than I do.
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I don’t think even David Quinn thinks he represents a majority view among Catholics in Ireland.
 
CMatt25 said:
Aw yes. Bernard Law. JP2 not only accepted his resignation. But then after doing that set him up nicely with new digs and a move to Rome…
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Ah, so going from being the Ordinary of a Metropolitian diocese to being the figurehead caretaker of a tourist site is not a punishment?
 
Via_Dolorosa said:
Thanks for posingt this. It was an interesting article. At the end of the article I noticed it was an editorial comment. I’m not saying this guy is wrong, at all, but people can write whatever they want in an editorial and many don’t get corrected ( if they are wrong) for a long time. But it definetly is a different persceptive from what I’ve read. I think the good people of Ireland have a better grasp of their own situation than I do.
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I find that I rarely find fault with David Quinn Don’t forget that the media here in Ireland is very anti-Catholic and likes nothing more than attacking her, often with half-truths and innuendo. Mr Quinn is a breath of fresh air in a sea of mud.

To Yellow Belle. I agree with you on your point, so many Irish Roman Catholics seem to have dropped the Roman.
 
May I, from Ireland, make a few points, please? And living here makes a great difference to how you see these issues, believe me on that.

It is hard from anywhere else to understand the totality of the Church’s despotic rule over Irish society in these centuries.

They had total control of all education, all health care, all punitive institutions eg industrial schools. “The priest” was the ultimate authority in everyone;s life… Even ten years ago, when an old lady neighbour fell downstairs, her daughter called the priest before anyone else.

So when -and the did - parents etc complained, they were not believed; that is on record many times in the various reports.

The power the Church has had here was in the police force, in medical care , in the courts. It was total.

NB What is known as the “Canadian Holocaust” was inflicted by all the main churches; RC, Anglican, United free church; ask google for Kevin Annett.

What has happened here is worse as a nation turned against its own most vulnerable. Watch youtube “sex in a cold climate”… it is total truth

There is utter disgust re the situation re the bishops here now. And rightly. Whatever the theories are on this forum the cold fact is that abuse was not only carried out systmatically but was condoned and covered up.

And this action has affirmed this. It s the death knell for many here of true faith. And why stil what someone has called “bitterness.” ? because it is the Vatican who are stretching it out longer and longer and longer now. To condone more.

Can we not see this simply as what it is?

This is why the religious orders and the priesthood are dying here now; God is not mocked, thankfully.

Every time the Vatican refuses to take action against these prelates? More leave the Church from all walks of life and all age groups; and many lose touch with any faith, or turn to Buddhism etc.

That is the burden the vatican must now shoulder.

This action also sees the end of any hope of renewal here in Ireland.
 
That article is ridiculous. It uses snippets of quotes to paint a picture that no one in the Church cares about this issue, and that is hardly the truth.

For example, this quote:
“All we ask is that it be fair and that the Catholic church not be singled out for a horror that has cursed every culture, religion, organization, institution, school, agency and family in the world” (Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York, March 28).
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Is that statement true or false? You can hardly read a newspaper or view news online without running weekly into a story about some teacher, usually female, having sexual relations with students underage. Just in this local area, one teacher was indicted last week for seducing two 13 year old boys. A month ago, a Deputy Sheriff was indicted for using blackmail and threat of arrest to have sex with a 14 year old girl over a period of months. So I don’t get where the Cardinal is in denial by pointing out the truth and asking for a fair perspective.

The article uses some pretty fallacious logic to draw it’s conclusions. Essentially, it argues that because they’ve collected a large amount of data on priests and found a common behavior pattern, anyone else displaying that pattern must also be likeminded,or perhaps themselves a pedophile.

This is the equivalent of pointing out that the majority of notorious serial killers have the middle name “Wayne,” therefore if you have the middle name Wayne, you’re likely a serial killer. :eek: :rolleyes:
 
DOShea said:
That article is ridiculous. It uses snippets of quotes to paint a picture that no one in the Church cares about this issue, and that is hardly the truth.

For example, this quote:

Is that statement true or false? You can hardly read a newspaper or view news online without running weekly into a story about some teacher, usually female, having sexual relations with students underage. Just in this local area, one teacher was indicted last week for seducing two 13 year old boys. A month ago, a Deputy Sheriff was indicted for using blackmail and threat of arrest to have sex with a 14 year old girl over a period of months. So I don’t get where the Cardinal is in denial by pointing out the truth and asking for a fair perspective.

The article uses some pretty fallacious logic to draw it’s conclusions. Essentially, it argues that because they’ve collected a large amount of data on priests and found a common behavior pattern, anyone else displaying that pattern must also be likeminded,or perhaps themselves a pedophile.

This is the equivalent of pointing out that the majority of notorious serial killers have the middle name “Wayne,” therefore if you have the middle name Wayne, you’re likely a serial killer. :eek: :rolleyes:
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I disagree with your false equivalency. This article says that the hierachy of the church chose to deny and cover up a problem that they all knew happening. This article troubled me greatly. When Hopemercy put out her urgent plea to pay attention, i went to 'Sex in the Cold Climate" on youtube. These were the real people who ended up in a Magdelin laundry. Their stories are heartbreaking. They are not making this up. Someone authorized this autrocity. These places were all over Ireland and Australia. Was there no one to speak for the prisoners of these establishments to say this is wrong.
 
Via_Dolorosa said:
I disagree with your false equivalency. This article says that the hierachy of the church chose to deny and cover up a problem that they all knew happening. This article troubled me greatly. When Hopemercy put out her urgent plea to pay attention, i went to 'Sex in the Cold Climate" on youtube. These were the real people who ended up in a Magdelin laundry. Their stories are heartbreaking. They are not making this up. Someone authorized this autrocity. These places were all over Ireland and Australia. Was there no one to speak for the prisoners of these establishments to say this is wrong.
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I went to these websites. It breaks one’s heart. What is the answer?
 
CMatt25 said:
If they have no problem then they should not have put the 2 on the same list. 🤷

“what astonished many Catholics was the inclusion of the attempt to ordain women in a list of the “more grave delicts,” or offenses, which included pedophilia”

nytimes.com/2010/07/16/world/europe/16vatican.html
Click to expand...
Pedophilia and women’s ordination were both included in the list of ‘delicta graviora’–very grave sins.

The pope could not have offended Catholics in Ireland more if he had set out deliberately to do so. First, he equates women’s ordination, widely supported among Irish Catholics, with pedophilia, of which they are one of the prime victims, and then he refuses to accept the resignations of two bishops who are regarded as being part of the culture that supported and abetted pedophilia in the first place.
 
Regarding Dolan’s quote:
  • “All we ask is that it be fair and that the Catholic church not be singled out for a horror that has cursed every culture, religion, organization, institution, school, agency and family in the world” (Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York, March 28). *
…in Ireland there was only one perp–the Roman Catholic Church, who betrayed its earliest and most loyal converts, the Irish nation, some of the earliest Christians in Europe.

NO one had had the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland since before the Reformation, except its co-enabler, the Irish government, who long since has been exposed and has apologized.

The Irish have long memories (witness The Famine, still very much at the forefront of Irish history) , and they aren’t going to recover from this, not with the way Rome has responded to it. The RCC as it was is finished in Ireland.
 
1234 said:
Regarding Dolan’s quote:
  • “All we ask is that it be fair and that the Catholic church not be singled out for a horror that has cursed every culture, religion, organization, institution, school, agency and family in the world” (Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York, March 28). *
…in Ireland there was only one perp–the Roman Catholic Church, who betrayed its earliest and most loyal converts, the Irish nation, some of the earliest Christians in Europe.

NO one had had the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland since before the Reformation, except its co-enabler, the Irish government, who long since has been exposed and has apologized.
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Agreed.

The constant attempts to compare the Church’s abuse scandals to abusive teachers is highly offensive. Archbishop Dolan was just doing it again on Raymond Arroyo’s Aug. 6th show.

When pedophilia/ephebophilia is exposed within the self-professed moral authority of the world (the Catholic Church) it rightly causes more scandal than when it takes place anywhere else in the world.

Whenever I read of a teacher accused of abuse, that teacher is removed immediately from the classroom and the police are notified. If it is found that the teacher is guilty, s/he is fired immediately and the authorities take over. The teacher is not transferred from school to school, district to district. S/he is not protected and defended by scores of other teachers. In fact, many times it is a fellow teacher who notices something fishy and notifies the Principal.

Abuser priests have been shuffled around from parish to parish, diocese to diocese, country to country. They have been protected from the authorities. Scores of bishops and priests did nothing to stop this. Criminal priests have gone un-laicised. Hush money was paid out. All this from people who have devoted their lives to God.

The comparison Dolan and so many others try to make here is illogical and outrageous. Even if there were a legitimate comparison to be made, how can these people find pointing fingers at others to create a distraction a just defense?

Before the Church can clean up its act, the heirarchy has to take responsibility, call a spade a spade, and speak the unadulterated truth.

I am dismayed at the Vatican’s denial of the resignations. I am also dismayed that Dolan is on the “task force” to clean up the mess in Ireland.
 
Brendan said:
Ah, so going from being the Ordinary of a Metropolitian diocese to being the figurehead caretaker of a tourist site is not a punishment?
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I think that it was a pretty soft landing. And yes, it is my understanding that Law fled Boston just ahead of a subpoena.
 
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