Swedish church pushes for neutral gender reference to Jesus

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adgloriam said:
It is not without reason or context:
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To make it more inviting for visiting sailors from other religions? And you call that good reason to remove crosses?..Interesting! It’s borderline blasphemy if you ask me!
From the CCC;
618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”. But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”, for “Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps.” In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering. Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.
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adgloriam said:
It is not without reason or context:
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Mark121359 said:
And you call that good reason to remove crosses?
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I said “reason” not “good reason”!! Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.
adgloriam said:
context:
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“Red cross” turned “Red crescent” I wonder if the reasons were good or blasphemous… A “single chapel” is completely different from, e.g. “nation-wide removal of crosses from school rooms”. Those are different context dependent debates. Pope John Paul II provided rooms for prayer at the Vatican for several religions adapted to their specific needs, without crosses. So, the reasons for use of religious symbols are completely context specific. There exist other instances of shared religious spaces. Also, in times of persecution other faiths ceded their spaces for Catholics to use. I won’t debate this since the “debate” has long been held, is inscribed in canon law, and is exhausted - a matter of research.
 
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stupidisasstupiddoes said:
There are many flavours of stupid.
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We are doing it in the Catholic Church! I have been a music minister for about 40 years in 15 parishes in the midwest and east coast. About 15 years ago, new editions of hymnals have had hymns that have been used for decades changed to get gender-neutral wording, to describe God in general and Jesus in particular. At the local level, I have been handed hymns that have been photocopied, with gender specific pronouns crossed out and gender neutral words written in. The change has been subtle. It has crept in steadily year by year.

We can’t hardly make fun of the Swedes when we have been doing it for over a decade.
 
adgloriam said:
I said “reason” not “good reason”!! Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.
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While your not flat out endorsing her decision, you sure do seem bent on excusing her. Again, there is never a good reason to remove the cross from a Christian church. Especially when she’s removing all signs of the cross and building an Islamic prayer room, complete with markings showing the direction to Mecca for the benefit of Muslim worshippers. Gender neutral Jesus? Removal of all signs of the cross? An Islamic prayer room in a Christian church, complete with markings showing the direction to Mecca? IMNSHO, it’s called liberal political correctness… run amok!

www.breitbart.com

World's First Lesbian Bishop Calls for Church to Remove Crosses, to Install Muslim Prayer Space

A bishop has proposed a church in her diocese remove all signs of the cross and reconfigure the space for the benefit of Muslim worshippers.
www.breitbart.com www.breitbart.com

orthochristian.com

World's First Openly Lesbian Bishop to Remove Crosses, Build Islamic Prayer Room in Swedish Seamen's Church

Eva Brunne, the world's first openly lesbian bishop, has called for a church in Stockholm, Sweden, to remove all signs of the cross, and instead build an Islamic prayer room in order to welcome Muslims. Several other Christian leaders in Sweden have criticized the suggestion.
orthochristian.com orthochristian.com
 
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however, tje distinction between grassroots and top-down changes has to be made in this instance.
 
I will give a single example: In some companies and universities “inter-faith” prayer rooms exist, for the simple reason that no more space can be made available beyond a single room. I have made good friendships dear to my heart in those rooms. Were it not for those rooms, I would not have made those friendships. We sometimes meet, everyone prays as they see fit. Those of other religions, I found them not lacking sanctity, sometimes they gave me precious examples of nobility of spirit and humanity. In those rooms I learned precious lessons about tolerance that I had learned nowhere else.
 
jfz178 said:
hymns that have been used for decades changed to get gender-neutral wording
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@jfz178 , sorry old chap…You are Catholic? We are talking about hymns sung at Catholic mass? If it is so, I find it unacceptable. Someone offering an explanation for this would be appreciated.
 
Mark121359 said:
Look at the name from Wikipedia. Eva Brunne. Now read the article below about this “bishop” below. Removing Crosses from churches? Huh??? It seems to me the Church of Sweden has a pattern of this radical progressive behavior. So none of this is even remotely surprising to me. They long ago went off the rails. Now, if the RCC starts this kind of radical behavior (And some of the things in the news of late is setting off alarm bells!)…then we can start panicking!!!
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When in the history of stupid have you ever heard a Muslim living in Europe say they were offended by a cross? Honestly, these totalitarians scare me. I know i’ll be in a camp for thought crimes before i retire.
 
Hey folks, ever heard about “additive scandal”?🤔🤔🤔 One example:

“Lesbian Bishop for Church removing Crosses for Muslims”, let’s count the scandals:

A. Lesbian 1
B. Lesbian Bishop 2
C. Removing crosses 3
D. Removing crosses from Churches 4
E. Removing crosses from Churches for Muslims 5

So, you get 5 scandals in 1 sentence with 7 words. But let’s look closer:

A. Public Homosexuality + depravity = we can count 3 scandals here.
B. Ordination of woman + ordination of woman Bishop = count 2 scandals
C. Denial of the cross + denial of sacred symbol = count 2 scandals
D. Denial of cross + inside house of God = count 2 scandals
E. Denial of our faith + surrender of sacred place + in favor of Muslims = 3 scandals

So, 12 scandals in 1 sentence with 7 words.

Pretty impressive feat of compacting scandal. Any one can do better?

How about: Rich priest fathers child with retarded girl.

[How many scandals is that? Does it top the:“Lezzie Bishop removes…”??]
 
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Yes, I am Catholic and always have been. As I said, I have been a music minister in Catholic parishes for 40 years. The gender neutral thing has been creeping in for so long, I have started to take it for granted. Catholics have been exposed to this for years and I don’t even think they realize it. If someone brings it up, their complaints are not well received.

In addition, there are a lot of Protestant hymns being used in Catholic Masses. Some are OK, but some have non-Catholic theological statements in the lyrics. I did an in depth analysis of it at a parish I was at and presented it to the music director. It went all the way up to the pastor, a monsignor in his 70’s. He told me he supported those hymns without even addressing the theological content. He said I could stay in the choir if I stopped complaining about it, but I chose to leave.
 
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There is lots of latitude regarding the hymns. I sing in a choir (we do lots of marriages and baptisms) and except on rare occasions the priests don’t impose restrictions. Anyway, the director of the choir gets to choose the songs and when I’ve found something wrong with a song they take my word for it.

There isn’t any set rule on the hymns, and the priests might not care overwhelmed as they are.

The “gender neutral thing” has an easy solution, either the choir doesn’t sing it or the priest doesn’t allow it. If both fail, there is plenty of fault to go around. I haven’t seen any pressing in that sense except for lack of better sense, judgement or taste. Being from a conservative catholic country helps, something construed as anti-catholic would quickly “get the boot”.
 
Yeah, I get that, but people should be aware that this gender neutral stuff is creeping in slowly and steadily. Just two examples, there are many more:

“Sing a New Song,” by Dan Schutte, one of the St. Louis Jesuits. The tune was copyright 1972. Starting a measure 8 of the first verse, it used to go, “And play for Him on glad tambourines…” It got changed to “And play for God on glad tambourines…"

Lift Up Your Hearts, by Roc O’Connor, another of the St. Louis Jesuits. The refrain used to go, “Lift up your hearts to the Lord, in praise of His mercy.” Now it goes, “Lift up your hearts to the Lord, praise God’s gracious mercy.”

Not a huge deal, but being judgemental about Sweden is ironic.
 
jfz178 said:
Yeah, I get that, but people should be aware that this gender neutral stuff is creeping in slowly and steadily. Just two examples, there are many more:

“Sing a New Song,” by Dan Schutte, one of the St. Louis Jesuits. The tune was copyright 1972. Starting a measure 8 of the first verse, it used to go, “And play for Him on glad tambourines…” It got changed to “And play for God on glad tambourines…"

Lift Up Your Hearts, by Roc O’Connor, another of the St. Louis Jesuits. The refrain used to go, “Lift up your hearts to the Lord, in praise of His mercy.” Now it goes, “Lift up your hearts to the Lord, praise God’s gracious mercy.”
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This change has not been coming from the Pope or bishops. It is similar to the catechetical watering down that happened a few decades ago, coming from mid-management. Some bishops have resisted it, when laity raise their voice in complaint. Most pastors I think just sign off on whatever the choir directors have been using for many years.

Remember even a bad hymnbook can get approved by a bishop if it contains no heresy, but that does not mean it is the bishop’s or pastor’s first choice. If your parish is using something worthless, such as Oregon Catholic Press (OCP), look around for something better. Unfortunately you probably can’t get them replaced until they start wearing out, and it is time to reorder.

Get a few fellow hymn-suffering parishioners together, meet first with the music director, bring along positive reasons why this other book is better for your parish. If that does not work, see if he or she will accept a compromise alternative that is less bad.

If that person is adamant, politely contact the pastor, with your reasons why OCP should only be used to kill unpopular insects. Sometimes the pastor has had doubts about the vile hymnbook too, but did not want to make a change unless parishioners express distaste as well.
 
There are only a few choices of vendors that can deliver a full system of hymnals to a parish at a reasonable price: OCP, GIA and WLP. That is all I have ever seen at all the parishes I have been at.

You may not like OCP, and I am not saying I do either, but 70% of the parishes in the US use them and they have an archbishop on their board of directors.
 
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