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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
We in the west are big fans of religious freedom. The Swiss vote to banish minarets goes against our cherished civil religion. However, sadly, many, though perhaps not most, Muslims see religious freedom as our weakness to be exploited. There is no buy-in on the part of radical Muslims. They use our freedom of speech and religion to spew hatred in the name of religion. Too many moderate Muslims become radicalized or go mute for fear of incurring the sometimes violent wrath of the radicals.
I regret to say this, but I applaud the Swiss.
Makes me want to eat Swiss cheese cut by my Swiss Army knife under the watchful eye of my cukoo clock. Vive les Suisses!
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dzheremi
Guest
I’m not going to celebrate this and I’m not going to weep over it. I am going point out that were the shoe on the other foot, many (not all) Muslims would rejoice and see it as a triumph of God’s religion over the heathen kuffar. If you guys think that the posters who are writing about the possibility of a Muslim Europe are practicing scare tactics or bigotry, please talk to your nearest Coptic Christian. They went through this process of becoming a minority in their own land.
Islam really is a one-way street, as another poster put it, and those rights that you would fight for on behalf of the Muslims WILL be denied to you in those cases where they have dominion over you. So it is up to you to choose: Do you care more about the absolute freedom of another to practice their own religion more than you do about YOUR OWN freedom to practice YOUR OWN religion?
I know my answer, and it sure as hell doesn’t make me feel bad for being a “bigot”. The only bigots I am concerned about are those who deny a Church to Saudi Arabia’s several million Catholic immigrant workers (mainly from the Philippines) while financing mosques that are centers of terrorism and hatred against the world’s non-Muslims.
There ought to be NO compromise in defense of religious liberty for those who recognize the inherent dignity which is God-given and possessed by all people - Muslims, on the other hand, who follow the laws of their religion to the letter by rejecting any such TRUE religious pluralism, should not be allowed to enjoy what they so confidently and flagrantly deny others. Muslims who do not fall into this category (the lax, the liberal, the “persona non-grata” of world Islam) are fine. Dhiyaa Al-Musawi would make a fine neighbor for anyone, myself included. Unfortunately, his voice is not consistent with the major currents of world Islam (he himself acknowledges this point). I am personally tired of waiting for the rest of the Muslim world to listen to such “voices in the desert”, and would not want to wait for the rest to catch up in such a dangerous age of worldwide decentralized terrorist networks all operating under the flag of Shahada and millions more who say nothing against them and so condemn their own community to “unfair” treatment by not the courage to stand up for what’s right. It’s hard too feel bad for this so-called “peaceful majority” when they in large part either support the aims of the violent minority (but not the means) or at least don’t do a damn thing against them. If I know about it ahead of time and do nothing to stop a planned murder, I am effectively an accomplice and a coward and very few would pity me.
It is like my father always says about playing the lottery - “how can you expect to win if you don’t play?” Muslims in many cases refuse to play, so they ought not be allowed to win. Anything that stops them is something that I have a hard time being sad about.
Islam really is a one-way street, as another poster put it, and those rights that you would fight for on behalf of the Muslims WILL be denied to you in those cases where they have dominion over you. So it is up to you to choose: Do you care more about the absolute freedom of another to practice their own religion more than you do about YOUR OWN freedom to practice YOUR OWN religion?
I know my answer, and it sure as hell doesn’t make me feel bad for being a “bigot”. The only bigots I am concerned about are those who deny a Church to Saudi Arabia’s several million Catholic immigrant workers (mainly from the Philippines) while financing mosques that are centers of terrorism and hatred against the world’s non-Muslims.
There ought to be NO compromise in defense of religious liberty for those who recognize the inherent dignity which is God-given and possessed by all people - Muslims, on the other hand, who follow the laws of their religion to the letter by rejecting any such TRUE religious pluralism, should not be allowed to enjoy what they so confidently and flagrantly deny others. Muslims who do not fall into this category (the lax, the liberal, the “persona non-grata” of world Islam) are fine. Dhiyaa Al-Musawi would make a fine neighbor for anyone, myself included. Unfortunately, his voice is not consistent with the major currents of world Islam (he himself acknowledges this point). I am personally tired of waiting for the rest of the Muslim world to listen to such “voices in the desert”, and would not want to wait for the rest to catch up in such a dangerous age of worldwide decentralized terrorist networks all operating under the flag of Shahada and millions more who say nothing against them and so condemn their own community to “unfair” treatment by not the courage to stand up for what’s right. It’s hard too feel bad for this so-called “peaceful majority” when they in large part either support the aims of the violent minority (but not the means) or at least don’t do a damn thing against them. If I know about it ahead of time and do nothing to stop a planned murder, I am effectively an accomplice and a coward and very few would pity me.
It is like my father always says about playing the lottery - “how can you expect to win if you don’t play?” Muslims in many cases refuse to play, so they ought not be allowed to win. Anything that stops them is something that I have a hard time being sad about.
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Le_Stigue
Guest
The amount of bigotry on this thread makes me think of Rapture Ready! Not all Muslims want to blow up buildings, you know! Some just want to, you know, worship God! The same God Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus etc. worship too. The Minaret is simply their way of expressing that worship.
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dzheremi
Guest
Some just want to worship God, true…but some see terrorist acts and oppression of non-Muslims (including beatings, extortion, and murder) as the vehicle by which they can most faithfully and completely do that. Are you just going to ask each person that walks into the mosque which group they fall into?
I’m not Swiss, but I think that this is their way of asserting their unwillingness to sacrifice their country to an ideology that, let’s not forget, places itself above Swiss or any other law, and places its culture and religion above any other that may be practiced by the Swiss people.
I’m not Swiss, but I think that this is their way of asserting their unwillingness to sacrifice their country to an ideology that, let’s not forget, places itself above Swiss or any other law, and places its culture and religion above any other that may be practiced by the Swiss people.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
My initial reaction was, “Good for the Swiss!” but this article gives another point to think about.
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703939404574565674154159110.html?mod=rss_opinion_main
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703939404574565674154159110.html?mod=rss_opinion_main
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Le_Stigue
Guest
So you’re saying that because some Muslims are murderous fanatics, all Muslims should be banned from expressing their worship?
Je n’en crois pas.
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dzheremi
Guest
That is very true, bpbasilphx. It does nothing to stop the problems associated with Islam in the first place. It is a “protest vote”, so to speak, but then nothing coming out of the ballot box in any country could reform Islam. It takes Muslims themselves to stand up to hateful preachers, but to the extent that many refuse to recognize that there is something of a “foundational problem” in Islam (immutable laws from Allah in the Qur’an that say “kill unbelievers” and carry no caveat as to context/limits and so are easily interpreted violently), there is a lot to this situation that doesn’t seem likely to change either way. You can take the Qur’an out of the theocracy, but…
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dzheremi
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moondweller
Guest
Certainly not. But don’t you see the insanity of it? What we saw right afterward were pictures of their fellow Muslims callously rejoicing in their triumph. I didn’t hear a call to mass mourning from atop all the minarets, did you? OTOH, I did hear a lot of Allahu Akbar. It’s a amazing how quickly we forget.
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Le_Stigue
Guest
some see terrorist acts and oppression of non-Muslims (including beatings, extortion, and murder) as the vehicle by which they can most faithfully and completely do that. Are you just going to ask each person that walks into the mosque which group they fall into?
This is your argument that the Swiss were right to ban Minarets. Sounds to me a lot like “Some Muslims are fanatics, and its impossible to tell which people who walk into a mosque are fanatics, so ban the mosque!”
And it means “I don’t think so”
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Kadaveri
Guest
I’m afraid I don’t know the answer to this question. Sorry.
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dzheremi
Guest
No, this was my reply to your statement that the minaret is just their way of expressing their worship or whatever. I said, in essence, yes, but there is more to the problems that European countries are having with Islam than some sort of innocuous symbol that doesn’t mean very much either way (minarets don’t cause terrorism, after all). My argument is actually in post #43, if you care to read it. It is not an argument for or against what the Swiss have done.
Merci.
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ralphinal
Guest
Ok. I thought you said that the call to prayers were not done in a non-Muslim country. Is that true?
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planten
Guest
The Call to prayer is a must. I do not know about construction of the minarates. The Call to prayer is very important before any prayer. But it should be in good tone and good manner.
The Muslims do not have any secrets in mosques. They call people to prayer openly. This system of Call to prayer (Azaan) was established by the prophet himself.
It is well known that a regime which is hostile to Muslims would stop the Muslims from giving a call to prayer. That would be considered a very serious bad act of any regime. That would be considered an act of enmity.
But making or not making a minarate in the mosque is perhaps not so serious matter. I do not know about it. It may be very important too. Because it is the symbol of the mosque. That indicates a mosque. It could be like a bell or Cross outside a church, as important as a Cross or big bell atop a church.
The real matter is that governments should not meddle into these matters. They should rule in good manner and look after more imporatnt affairs of the country. Minarate was a minor matter. Swiss government should not have taken any step about that. If there was a problem of any very loud call to prayers, that should have been addressed and settled, not the minarate.
This is a common useless act of the western countries to disturb the peace of mind of the muslims. There are a few more similar things that the western people keep on doing to disturb the Muslims such as the Muslim ladies covering their head with scarf.
I see nuns (church ladies) here. They have some head dress too and they walk about in the streets. It appears that there is a difference in civilisation or culture which is still not being respected in western countries. Otherwise, the western countries are doing well in many other ways. That is all because of their secular system. Nothing to do with any religious goodness.
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Le_Stigue
Guest
Ahh, didn’t see this post.
But here, you seem to be saying, correct me if I’m wrong, that if you allow Muslims freedom to practise their religion, they will rise up, take over the country and restrict YOUR rights to practise YOUR religion.
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ralphinal
Guest
Ok, so if the call to prayer is a must, does that mean that Muslims would ignore sound laws for it? If it is illeagle for a bell to be rung between 8 p.m. and 8 a.m., would Islam follow the same laws?
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planten
Guest
I had in an earlier post indicated that the call to prayer should never be in any loud voice. It would be better that the sound of call remains inside the mosque and does not come outside except in very low volume. So that nobody is disturbed.
I should say that the Muslims should follow all laws passed in western countries.
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ralphinal
Guest
I thought that part of the call to prayer was that it be done from the minarets, so all can hear
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dzheremi
Guest
Nope. I am stating what is a matter of historical record, in refutation of some posts from people who seem to equate concerns about the face of Islam in Europe with unfounded bigotry. It is a matter of historical fact, for instance, that the balance established between different religious communities in the Middle East and elsewhere where Islam comes into contact other religions is very fragile and complex, and that when this balance has been upset it has been to the Muslims’ favor, as with the establishment of radical Islamism in Lebanon via Hezbollah or in Egypt via the Islamic Brotherhood. So I don’t think it is entirely inappropriate to look at Europe and be concerned, though I think the manner in which that concern is often voiced is hysterical to the point of being crazy in many cases (rantings about Muslims “outbreeding” non-Muslims, for instance).Ahh, didn’t see this post.
But here, you seem to be saying, correct me if I’m wrong, that if you allow Muslims freedom to practise their religion, they will rise up, take over the country and restrict YOUR rights to practise YOUR religion.
I am most definitely NOT saying that Muslims will “rise up” and take over the country just because they’re allowed to build minarets. I am saying that with a Muslim majority comes an Islamic government or a Islamist-leaning quasi-secular despot-ship. The one example in all of the “Islamic world” that does not conform to this pattern is Lebanon, which is held together by a confessional system that is entirely ineffective, as there is nothing to stop the Islamists in Hezbollah from operating their armed state-within-a-state and sacrificing all of Lebanon to fight on behalf of the Palestinians who are guests in Lebanon. So there’s not a lot to look forward to when Muslims become the majority population. The USA has largely been spared these types of problems because of its different integration policies, but even that is beginning to change, and there it is like most western countries, where Muslims are only a tiny minority.
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