Swiss Approve Constitutional Ban on Mosque Minarets

[Le_Stigue]

Nope. I am stating what is a matter of historical record, in refutation of some posts from people who seem to equate concerns about the face of Islam in Europe with unfounded bigotry. It is a matter of historical fact, for instance, that the balance established between different religious communities in the Middle East and elsewhere where Islam comes into contact other religions is very fragile and complex, and that when this balance has been upset it has been to the Muslims’ favor, as with the establishment of radical Islamism in Lebanon via Hezbollah or in Egypt via the Islamic Brotherhood. So I don’t think it is entirely inappropriate to look at Europe and be concerned, though I think the manner in which that concern is often voiced is hysterical to the point of being crazy in many cases (rantings about Muslims “outbreeding” non-Muslims, for instance).

I am most definitely NOT saying that Muslims will “rise up” and take over the country just because they’re allowed to build minarets. I am saying that with a Muslim majority comes an Islamic government or a Islamist-leaning quasi-secular despot-ship. The one example in all of the “Islamic world” that does not conform to this pattern is Lebanon, which is held together by a confessional system that is entirely ineffective, as there is nothing to stop the Islamists in Hezbollah from operating their armed state-within-a-state and sacrificing all of Lebanon to fight on behalf of the Palestinians who are guests in Lebanon. So there’s not a lot to look forward to when Muslims become the majority population. The USA has largely been spared these types of problems because of its different integration policies, but even that is beginning to change, and there it is like most western countries, where Muslims are only a tiny minority.

Hmm, that’s certainly better phrased than your original post, and I agree somewhat that when Islam becomes the state religion, things take a turn for the worse. But that goes with any state religion. Look at the US. I realise it isn’t a Christian country by constitution, but when the Republicans are in power, especially George Bush, it became effectively a Baptist country, and everybody in Europe, where I’m from, is in agreement that it was a travesty for the globe.

ANY state religion is a bad thing, not just Islam (although I realise Islamic states tend to be more radical than others) religion and politics DO NOT MIX.

 

[planten]

I thought that part of the call to prayer was that it be done from the minarets, so all can hear

No, even if there is a minarate and there was in nearly all mosques, the call was never made from the minarate ( except in rare cases). The call was made from an open ground area of the mosque. That was the practice before the loudspeaker (L/S) arrived.

When came the L/S, there was conflict whether to use it in the mosque or not. It was considered a tool of the devil by many prominant Muslim religious leaders. They disallowed its use in the mosques.

But the Loudspeaker found its way in the mosques slowly and then all Mullas started using it. Nowadays, te Mulla does not like to make a speech without L/S.

So they fixed the Loudspeakers on the minarates and started blasting the call to prayer from the microphone installed inside the mosque. Nobody needed to go up on the minarate because the Loudspeaker (or the speaker) was fitted there.

In short, now, the call is made from inside the mosque and minarate is only a useful builtup to fix the Loudspeakers. Nobody ever goes up the minarate.

There is another important use of the minarate for the Muslims. They believe that Jesus son of Mary is alive in heavens. He will come to cure the ills of the Muslim Ummah sometime. He will come with two angels and will land on a WHITE MINARATE east of Damascus. (That is according to some Hadith).

So if minarates are forbidden, where will Jesus land??

 

[jakasaki]

planten;5997782]

No, even if there is a minarate and there was in nearly all mosques, the call was never made from the minarate ( except in rare cases).

Well back during mohamads time, a person would climb up/down from these minarets for the call to prayer. It is unknown when this going up/down practice stopped.

Perhaps it stopped with with the loud speaker system.

 

[jakasaki]

** There is another important use of the minarate for the Muslims. They believe that Jesus son of Mary is alive in heavens. He will come to cure the ills of the Muslim Ummah sometime. He will come with two angels and will land on a WHITE MINARATE east of Damascus. (That is according to some Hadith).

So if minarates are forbidden, where will Jesus land??**

First of all this article is about the Swiss and minarets - not Damasus - and where in the article does it state “global” ban of minarets.

Secondly, you must be talking about this fine piece of hadith:

It’s very long, so I’ll “snip it” for space…

…and it would at this very time that Allah would send Christ, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damscus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels.

When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it.

Every non-believer who would smell the odour of his self would die and his breath would reach as far as he would be able to see.

He would then search for him (Dajjal) until he would catch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and would kill him.

Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magog and they would swarm down from every slope.

(Book #041, Hadith #7015) Sahih Muslim.

 

[moondweller]

In short, now, the call is made from inside the mosque and minarate is only a useful builtup to fix the Loudspeakers. Nobody ever goes up the minarate.

Except the voice is launched out from up there. I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make.

There is another important use of the minarate for the Muslims. They believe that Jesus son of Mary is alive in heavens. He will come to cure the ills of the Muslim Ummah sometime. He will come with two angels and will land on a WHITE MINARATE east of Damascus. (That is according to some Hadith). So if minarates are forbidden, where will Jesus land??

Somewhere EAST of Damascus. That’s not western Europe or the U.S. So, problem solved!! Muslims don’t need minarets on their mosques WEST of Damascus. :thankyou:

 

[PA650]

Well, the rightest Dutch political party, Freedom Party PVV certainly sees a referendum similar to what has passed in Switzerland being duplicated in the Netherlands.
geertwilders.nl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1615&Itemid=1

Frankly, this maybe the start of an European backlash against an ever growing, radical, and not assimilated Muslim minority in Western Europe.

 

[Kadaveri]

Ok. I thought you said that the call to prayers were not done in a non-Muslim country. Is that true?

I said the call to prayer wasn’t done in Switzerland. I didn’t mean to say that there was an actual Islamic law against it, but merely that it wasn’t done.

 

[ralphinal]

I said the call to prayer wasn’t done in Switzerland. I didn’t mean to say that there was an actual Islamic law against it, but merely that it wasn’t done.

Ok. I misread your post.

Here is a question: would it be considered a law against Islam if the call to prayer was restricted because of noise ordinances?

 

[cthulhubryan]

I don’t understand why any Catholic would rejoice at a country making a move to supress the Muslim’s ability to build the equivalent of the Catholic bell tower. It is a move against religious freedom that weakens **all **such freedom.

In Muslim countries, Christians are prohibited from building churches (or from repairing them when they begin to age) and we protest that to the world as unjust and fight for Christian freedoms in those countries. This is equally unjust.

I can certainly understand laws/ordinances regarding restricting the call to prayer-- or even their height or where they may be built. Having been awakened as the call blasted out of loud speakers from minarets in Egypt in the middle of the night I can see the need to restrict this in a plural society. Having also been nearly deafened by the bell tower in Florence at the Duomo-- I can see people wanting to restrict that too!

In days before electronics, these served a real purposes (both bell towers and minarets). Now they are more symbolic of the call to worship, but our Catholic Churches still ring the bells regularly. Would you support bans on Catholic bell towers or spires in new church construction? I think not, somehow.

1ke,

I assume you and anyone else against this ban have already written the U.S. Government and the government of Mississippi and Georgia (the U.S. state) protesting the removal of parts of the confederate flag from their current flags? This was done to appease liberals who said that the stars and bars was a symbol of slavery, repression and evil.
So, too, is the Minaret. If not for the bravery of endless numbers of Catholic soldiers fighting under the banners of such brave men as Charles Martel and Polish King John III (Sobieski) Minarets would be all over Europe and the continuation of enslavement, murder and raping and pillaging by the moslem hordes. For the peoples of Central and Eastern Europe, the Minaret is a clear sign of an evil darker than Hitler and longer lived than U.S. Slavery.

Something to think about.

 

[AJTheMan]

I’m ambivalent about this.

Judging it by it’s cover, it seems like pure religious discrimination. Let’s hope that there’s some other reason.

 

[jen_fla]

Ok. I misread your post.

Here is a question: would it be considered a law against Islam if the call to prayer was restricted because of noise ordinances?

hi raphinal.

don’t mean to barge in on your conversation, but thought you might like to see this article about this issue in the bronx.

and another a bit more recent

peace

 

[Dirk_Skene]

Makes me wanna buy a Swiss flag :clapping:

 

[planten]

I had opined that there is no need to broadcast the call for prayer in Mosques in present times. There is no order in the Quran or Hadith to make call with loudspeakers. That was an old time when people did not have clocks or watches. They used the sun dial (approximate position of the sun) to guess time.

Now there is no need for any call on the loudspeakers in any Muslim country or in any country. If the Muslims press for making call on loudspeakers then they are asking for trouble. The times of five (5) daily prayers should be fixed and every prayer monger informed about the prayers times. People should arrive at the right time and attend their prayer.

Even during the prayer, the sound should not come outside the mosque. It disturbs others and it has no use for any one outside the mosque. The special address should be heard (inside the mosque only) on loudspeakers Loudspeaker is required for the address (Khutbah). it should be used. But volume should be adjusted such that sound should not come outside the mosque. No loudspeaker may be fitted outside the mosque.

That means no loudspeaker may be fitted on any minarate. There is no need.

If the Muslims will not behave themselves in western countries then they will suffer all the more. Instead of applying for extra sound to the authorities (local councils), the Muslims should give satisfaction to the local people that they will not use any loudspeaker outside the mosque. In that way they will gain some respect and will continue to enjoy their prayers happily / peacefully, continously.

My this post has made me think of the solution to the problem of the minarates for the mosques in Switzerland (or any other western country). The minarates should be allowed. But no loudspeakers. That should satisfy both parties, the local non-Muslim residents and the Muslims too. There is no need to ban the minarates. The loudspeakers outside the mosque (on the minarate or any where else) should be banned.

There is no need, in present days, to make any call for prayers, on the loudspeakers. There is no order from Allah or his prophet to do such thing using loudspeakers. for a very long time, I am against the call on loudspeakers . It disturbs children and ill persons.

 

[ralphinal]

I had opined that there is no need to broadcast the call for prayer in Mosques in present times. There is no order in the Quran or Hadith to make call with loudspeakers. That was an old time when people did not have clocks or watches. They used the sun dial (approximate position of the sun) to guess time.

Now there is no need for any call on the loudspeakers in any Muslim country or in any country. If the Muslims press for making call on loudspeakers then they are asking for trouble. The times of five (5) daily prayers should be fixed and every prayer monger informed about the prayers times. People should arrive at the right time and attend their prayer.

Even during the prayer, the sound should not come outside the mosque. It disturbs others and it has no use for any one outside the mosque. The special address should be heard (inside the mosque only) on loudspeakers Loudspeaker is required for the address (Khutbah). it should be used. But volume should be adjusted such that sound should not come outside the mosque. No loudspeaker may be fitted outside the mosque.

That means no loudspeaker may be fitted on any minarate. There is no need.

If the Muslims will not behave themselves in western countries then they will suffer all the more. Instead of applying for extra sound to the authorities (local councils), the Muslims should give satisfaction to the local people that they will not use any loudspeaker outside the mosque. In that way they will gain some respect and will continue to enjoy their prayers happily / peacefully, continously.

My this post has made me think of the solution to the problem of the minarates for the mosques in Switzerland (or any other western country). The minarates should be allowed. But no loudspeakers. That should satisfy both parties, the local non-Muslim residents and the Muslims too. There is no need to ban the minarates. The loudspeakers outside the mosque (on the minarate or any where else) should be banned.

There is no need, in present days, to make any call for prayers, on the loudspeakers. There is no order from Allah or his prophet to do such thing using loudspeakers. for a very long time, I am against the call on loudspeakers . It disturbs children and ill persons.

Planten,
this is a fair and valid statement.

 

[planten]

Planten,
this is a fair and valid statement.

ralphinal, Thanks. Now that I got a good certificate from a senior, I feel that I should have some rest (holyday) and not post any unwelcome material. Love, Wa assalam.

 

[ralphinal]

ralphinal, Thanks. Now that I got a good certificate from a senior, I feel that I should have some rest (holyday) and not post any unwelcome material. Love, Wa assalam.

If you do take some time off, my God watch over you. If you keep posting, may He still watch over you (and the rest of us )

 

[ralphinal]

If the issue was one of making sure buildings fit in a local design scheme, that is one thing. Same issue if it is a matter of building codes or noise issues.

Keeping minarets out as a means to keep radical Muslims out is plain silly. The radicals will just meet in the basement.

 

[ralphinal]

I would agree 100%

Now, had the Swiss banned giving Muslims visas, we might be having another conversation about this