Swiss Catholics call for same-sex partnerships, change in teaching on Communion [CWN]

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Bluesprite333 said:
Oh great… :dts:

Don’t they realize that when you change these basic principles, these tenets of the faith, that it ceases to be? I’m soooo tired of people wanting to change things due to it being “current” or “fashionable.” Of course some Swiss are complaining - they find the faith “too rigid.” So be it.

It’s like Chesterton said: *"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.” *
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Why do you assume that they are merely trying to be fashionable, and not attempting to discern the truth? There are many good Christians on each side of this issue, why do you assume otherwise?
 
TMC said:
Why do you assume that they are merely trying to be fashionable, and not attempting to discern the truth? There are many good Christians on each side of this issue, why do you assume otherwise?
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Because there’s nothing to discern. It’s not an issue! It never was. The Catholic faith is what it is. Either you follow it or you don’t. Either you believe in it or not. It’s really quite simple.
 
Bluesprite333 said:
Because there’s nothing to discern. It’s not an issue! It never was. The Catholic faith is what it is. Either you follow it or you don’t. Either you believe in it or not. It’s really quite simple.
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I don’t think it is that simple. The Truth does not change, but that does not mean that the faith is a dead thing that is not able to grow and deepen. The Church has continued to grow in faith through the centuries. In fact, the Pope and the bishops have determined to hold a Synod to discern how best to address issues related to families and related issues. The Synod is not meant to merely recite the catechism, but to discern how to continue to grow in the faith. I hope and pray they succeed in following where the Spirit is leading.
 
TMC said:
I don’t think it is that simple. The Truth does not change, but that does not mean that the faith is a dead thing that is not able to grow and deepen. The Church has continued to grow in faith through the centuries. In fact, the Pope and the bishops have determined to hold a Synod to discern how best to address issues related to families and related issues. The Synod is not meant to merely recite the catechism, but to discern how to continue to grow in the faith. I hope and pray they succeed in following where the Spirit is leading.
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Well, in my mind it is. You’ve already got the truth (as you stated above) - and I see the faith as being in-line (the same) as the truth - I don’t see a division. Because of that, I don’t see any need to change the faith, because in so doing, you’re attempting to bend the truth to your will.

But that’s just my perspective.
 
Perhaps the Swiss like their Faith to be a little like their cheese–full of holes.

When the article says things like "“Partnerships for gays and lesbians should have a place in the Church,” and that only a "small minority of Swiss Catholics supported the “current doctrine of the Church with its rigid discipline,” it sounds rather like they are seeking not so much growth in the Faith as doctrinal change.

I don’t think that doctrinal change will happen. The Church will remain Catholic. The Synod will not change that. One can speak of ‘partnerships’ for gays and lesbians, and there is nothing wrong with close friendships, but only marriage can be sexual, and same sex persons can not marry. So I’m not sure just what they expect.
 
JimG said:
I don’t think that doctrinal change will happen. The Church will remain Catholic. The Synod will not change that. One can speak of ‘partnerships’ for gays and lesbians, and there is nothing wrong with close friendships, but only marriage can be sexual, and same sex persons can not marry. So I’m not sure just what they expect.
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It’s how the progressives have warped language. If you are against sodomy, they say you are against love and hate gays. It’s gotten to the point where the word ‘sodomy’ is considered a hate term in many circles.

I have no problem with two people of the same gender having a loving relationship, as long as it’s not sexual, and it’s not defined as a ‘marriage’.
 
Bluesprite333 said:
Well, in my mind it is. You’ve already got the truth (as you stated above) - and I see the faith as being in-line (the same) as the truth - I don’t see a division. Because of that, I don’t see any need to change the faith, because in so doing, you’re attempting to bend the truth to your will.

But that’s just my perspective.
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Yep. But the divide and conquer crowed have been at this for a very long time. When Pope St. Pius X called modernism the “Synthesis of all heresies”, He knew of what he said. This current crisis is simply a continuation of the war between the world and the body of Christ that has been being waged since the Incarnation. Satan is relentless. And has many minions to do his bidding. All we can do is stand fast on what has always been taught, Pray, Fast, and receive the Sacraments. The rest will play out according to God’s good will.
 
Pulvis said:
Yep. But the divide and conquer crowed have been at this for a very long time. When Pope St. Pius X called modernism the “Synthesis of all heresies”, He knew of what he said. This current crisis is simply a continuation of the war between the world and the body of Christ that has been being waged since the Incarnation. Satan is relentless. And has many minions to do his bidding. All we can do is stand fast on what has always been taught, Pray, Fast, and receive the Sacraments. The rest will play out according to God’s good will.
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Good post!

Amen
 
Bluesprite333 said:
Well, in my mind it is. You’ve already got the truth (as you stated above) - and I see the faith as being in-line (the same) as the truth - I don’t see a division. Because of that, I don’t see any need to change the faith, because in so doing, you’re attempting to bend the truth to your will.

But that’s just my perspective.
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Well, I guess our difference is that I don’t agree that we already have the Truth - at least not in full. I don’t think anyone can say they know God fully and completely, or that they understand all He intends for us. It also makes no sense to me that mankind would grow in the understanding of God and Truth for millennia and then suddenly stop growing just now. When did we obtain the fullness of Truth? It was not clearly during NT times, because Jesus said we did not have the fullness of Truth when he returned to the Father. I don’t think we can ever have the fullness of Truth, but we are charged with working toward that goal as best we can.
 
TMC said:
Well, I guess our difference is that I don’t agree that we already have the Truth - at least not in full .
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Then no one has any authority to state anything, ever, because we can never be sure, or we might not have the full story anyway. So in the end, all of this is just nonsense, if thats the view one takes.

As for Swiss Catholics calling for this, I think there might be a lot more than just the Swiss that want this change to occur, they have maybe just been for vocal about it.
 
SonOfMan said:
Then no one has any authority to state anything, ever, because we can never be sure, or we might not have the full story anyway. So in the end, all of this is just nonsense, if thats the view one takes.

As for Swiss Catholics calling for this, I think there might be a lot more than just the Swiss that want this change to occur, they have maybe just been for vocal about it.
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Either one has the full omniscience of God, or no authority at all? If that were the case, then no human or human institution could ever have any authority whatsoever. Or are you suggesting that the Church somehow knows the mind of God? The Church has never claimed that.

I agree with your second point. Many millions of good and faithful Catholics, lay and religious, are seeking change.
 
TMC said:
Either one has the full omniscience of God, or no authority at all? If that were the case, then no human or human institution could ever have any authority whatsoever. Or are you suggesting that the Church somehow knows the mind of God? The Church has never claimed that.

I agree with your second point. Many millions of good and faithful Catholics, lay and religious, are seeking change.
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That is totally inaccurate. The mind of God is God the Son who has revealed himself to the church and the church knows him in the eucharist sacraments and deposit of faith. Just what do you think incarnation is if not revealing mind of God? What do you think is revelation or deposit of faith if not mind of God? Why the church should claim to have “fullness of truth” against everyone else in the world if your claim is remotely true? If you don’t believe catholic church knows the mind of God then you dont believe catholic church has truth. Its like any other church just one among thousands equally lost churches when it comes to mind of God or truth. If you believe catholic church was wrong in councils and popes about marriage divorce then you have no basis to believe the church on anything else she teaches. Anything can turn out tomorrow to be a big falsehood. The church has no authority to claim anything is true definitively.

Pointing to many catholics beieving or desiring heresy is not a point. They are not the first in history and i doubt they will be the last. we have martyrs who died at the hands of so called faithful catholics for holding on to the truth.
 
JesusPeaceLove said:
That is totally inaccurate. The mind of God is God the Son who has revealed himself to the church and the church knows him in the eucharist sacraments and deposit of faith. Just what do you think incarnation is if not revealing mind of God? What do you think is revelation or deposit of faith if not mind of God? Why the church should claim to have “fullness of truth” against everyone else in the world if your claim is remotely true? If you don’t believe catholic church knows the mind of God then you dont believe catholic church has truth. Its like any other church just one among thousands equally lost churches when it comes to mind of God or truth. If you believe catholic church was wrong in councils and popes about marriage divorce then you have no basis to believe the church on anything else she teaches. Anything can turn out tomorrow to be a big falsehood. The church has no authority to claim anything is true definitively.

Pointing to many catholics beieving or desiring heresy is not a point. They are not the first in history and i doubt they will be the last. we have martyrs who died at the hands of so called faithful catholics for holding on to the truth.
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I have never known any Catholic priest, bishop or theologian to profess to know the mind of God. That is, in my opinion, the very definition of hubris.

Yes, the Word lived among men for some time. But He also told us that He was not, and could not, teach us all of the Truth, in part because mankind was not ready for the fullness of the Truth. Why did Christ tell us that, if it is not true? If the Church has had the complete unalterable answer to every question since 33 AD (or so), why has the Church continued to evolve and grow since that time? Even in the years immediately after the Assumption the Church made changes and evolutions to teachings.
 
TMC said:
I have never known any Catholic priest, bishop or theologian to profess to know the mind of God. That is, in my opinion, the very definition of hubris.

Yes, the Word lived among men for some time. But He also told us that He was not, and could not, teach us all of the Truth, in part because mankind was not ready for the fullness of the Truth. Why did Christ tell us that, if it is not true? If the Church has had the complete unalterable answer to every question since 33 AD (or so), why has the Church continued to evolve and grow since that time? Even in the years immediately after the Assumption the Church made changes and evolutions to teachings.
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Today’s Gospel;

Jn 16:12-15 Jesus said to his disciples:
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth,
he will guide you to all truth.
He will not speak on his own,
but he will speak what he hears,
and will declare to you the things that are coming.
He will glorify me,
because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
Everything that the Father has is mine;
for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine
and declare it to you.”
 
TMC said:
I have never known any Catholic priest, bishop or theologian to profess to know the mind of God. That is, in my opinion, the very definition of hubris.
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You can call it hubris. I call it catholic faith! Jesus was killed because people thought his claims were the height of hubris. Of course they would have been right…only if those claims were false. You are right only if the claim is false. Please tell me why you think the church claims that she ALONE possesses the FULLNESS of truth and what you think fullness of truth can be if not the mind of God? You are purporting essentially that no one has access to the truth in any certain way which makes you an unbeliever or in modern language a relativist. That is not an insult but an observation. Your claims cannot come from someone who really believes the catholic religion.
Yes, the Word lived among men for some time. But He also told us that He was not, and could not, teach us all of the Truth, in part because mankind was not ready for the fullness of the Truth.
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Please please show me where christ ever claimed that he could not teach all truth because people were not ready??? Never seen that anywhere.
Why did Christ tell us that, if it is not true?
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Christ did not. You did.
If the Church has had the complete unalterable answer to every question since 33 AD (or so), why has the Church continued to evolve and grow since that time? Even in the years immediately after the Assumption the Church made changes and evolutions to teachings.
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The church has always taught that she received the fullness of truth in Jesus and that no more revelation can come after him and apostles. Its right there in catechism. The church always clarifies teachings in response to HERESIES (like this new one about marriage after divorce). she never ADD to the truth anyhere. It is false the church made changes to teachings. totally false. Please feel very free to cite the change in teaching and we see the claim in action…
 
DCNBILL said:
Today’s Gospel;

Jn 16:12-15 Jesus said to his disciples:
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth,
he will guide you to all truth.
He will not speak on his own,
but he will speak what he hears,
and will declare to you the things that are coming.
He will glorify me,
because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
Everything that the Father has is mine;
for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine
and declare it to you.”
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This verse does not show what the poster claim. Holy spirit did guide apostles to all truth and the revelation was brought to rememberance by the spirit to them and this revelation is scripture and holy tradition. The church believes that it finished with apostles not something going on forever. Like Jesus promised
“he will guide you to ALL truth” right in that verse and the church believes the holy spirit did that and we call it scripture and holy tradition. If someone believes that is hubris, that is up to them, but it is not to say that this is what the catholic church believes.
 
JesusPeaceLove said:
You can call it hubris. I call it catholic faith! Jesus was killed because people thought his claims were the height of hubris. Of course they would have been right…only if those claims were false. You are right only if the claim is false. Please tell me why you think the church claims that she ALONE possesses the FULLNESS of truth and what you think fullness of truth can be if not the mind of God? You are purporting essentially that no one has access to the truth in any certain way which makes you an unbeliever or in modern language a relativist. That is not an insult but an observation. Your claims cannot come from someone who really believes the catholic religion.

Please please show me where christ ever claimed that he could not teach all truth because people were not ready??? Never seen that anywhere.

Christ did not. You did.

The church has always taught that she received the fullness of truth in Jesus and that no more revelation can come after him and apostles. Its right there in catechism. The church always clarifies teachings in response to HERESIES (like this new one about marriage after divorce). she never ADD to the truth anyhere. It is false the church made changes to teachings. totally false. Please feel very free to cite the change in teaching and we see the claim in action…
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It was today’s Gospel. Which I posted earlier in this thread. John 16:12-14.
 
JesusPeaceLove said:
This verse does not show what the poster claim. Holy spirit did guide apostles to all truth and the revelation was brought to rememberance by the spirit to them and this revelation is scripture and holy tradition. The church believes that it finished with apostles not something going on forever. Like Jesus promised
“he will guide you to ALL truth” right in that verse and the church believes the holy spirit did that and we call it scripture and holy tradition. If someone believes that is hubris, that is up to them, but it is not to say that this is what the catholic church believes.
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Its obvious we will not agree on this. I think you are deeply mistaken with how the Church views itself. The Church is not, and does not claim to be, all-knowing or unchanging. You apparently have an abiding belief that it is both. Christ promised that the Spirit will continue to lead us toward all Truth. I believe that is what has been happening for millennia, and continues to happen. I have seen the growth and change even in my lifetime. I believe it will continue; you believe the Church is static and (apparently) that efforts to better understand Truth are therefore futile (or even heretical). I respect your position, although I fundamentally disagree. Perhaps the ongoing talks within the Church will enlighten us both.
 
TMC said:
It was today’s Gospel. Which I posted earlier in this thread. John 16:12-14.
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This is what you claimed

“He also told us that** He was not,** and could not, teach us all of the Truth, in part because mankind was not ready for the fullness of the Truth.”

There is nothing like that in that verse you claim supports you. Your claim is that the church does not possess the fullness of truth and that is contradicted by Jesus in that same verse you quote and the church in the catechism. Quite the opposite to what you say, Jesus is promising the apostles that the holy spirit will teach them all truth and this truth is Jesus own truth. The church believes Jesus fulfilled this promise to apostles and that is what we call holy tradition. If you dont believe me just read the catechism. There is NOTHING TO ADD after Jesus revelation, the church says. The revelation is complete and any claim that is claiming additional revelation is rejected in the catechism.
 
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