Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[Mickey]

This is why VII states that they claim to follow the God of Abraham. But in fact, they don’t.

Exactly. And trying to pawn it off as some sort of medieval Byzantine mistranslation is nonsense. Somehow…I don’t see the tens of thousands of Christian martyrs…who were murdered at the hands of the muslims…agreeing that it is okay to pray with the muslims because they worship the one true God.

Ludicrous!!!

So the issue is clear cut as far as I can see.

Indeed.

 

[Mickey]

It is far more accurate, as well as more charitable, to say that Muslims falsely believe that God revealed the Qur’an

So you are saying that prior to “some entity” revealed the Koran to them…they worshipped and adored the one, true, Triune God of Abraham. But after the Koran was revealed by the “entity”, they began to worship and adore something that no longer resembles the one, true, Triune, God of Abraham?

We need to keep coming back to the parallel with the Jews,

No problem.

We don’t, as Christians, claim that the true God was utterly unknown before Jesus was born.

Christ and the Holy Spirit aare throughout the OT.

I think there’s a lot more in common between Islam and Christianity

Do most modern Episcopalians have this opinion?

 

[Mickey]

Perhaps you can come up with something new, of course!

Perhaps…but you’ll probably tell us why we are wrong.

The entire edifice of scholasticism therefore collapses if your position is correct.

Ah yes…good ol’ scholasticism.

Of course they don’t think God is Triune.

Correct.

 

[Contarini]

If I worshiped the Christian God as the exterminator of millions of Jews during WWII, would I be worshiping the same God?

If you believed in all the doctrines of the Nicene Creed, but ascribed approval of Nazi genocide to that God, then yes, I would say that you believe something horribly wrong about the true God rather than that you believe in a false god altogether.

That is what I say to the majority of my fellow Christians, who think that the true God approved of the genocide of ancient Canaanites. I grant that the two are not quite the same–the major difference is that Nazi genocide was rooted in pseudo-scientific claptrap about superior and inferior races, and certainly introducing that into Christianity radically distorts it, beyond the deeply disturbing claim that God approves of wholesale slaughter, a claim that we already have in the OT.

Most of the distinctions people make to claim that OT genocide is somehow “different” seem utterly threadbare and disingenuous to me. For instance, some people claim that the (relatively milder) admonitions to violence in Islam are somehow worse than the command to slaughter whole populations in the OT (something which does not occur in Islam–the deliberate killing of women and children is never approved), because the OT slaughter was “limited” in time and place and not an ongoing command, and/or because the OT is to be read through the light of the fuller revelation in the NT. The first of these is relevant in practical terms, but irrelevant when we are talking about the character of God, who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The OT/NT consideration (though this is unfair to the OT–the prophets proclaim God’s grace and mercy as clearly as anything in the NT) is a much more relevant one, but only if you’re willing to push it to the point of saying that God did not actually will the slaughter of whole populations.

Indeed, which is why I put the question of accuracy first. But I have been engaged in a number of these discussions, and over and over again I’m struck by the stubborn, ferocious determination of many Christians to believe the worst about Islam. I think charity really is a relevant consideration here.

In the sense of how people evaluate similarity, the Muslim God is not similar to the Christian God in major aspects.

What are these aspects, and how do both the OT and the modern religion of Judaism measure up in these respects?

If we’re talking about God’s character and attributes, I think the differences within both Christianity and Islam on these points are at least as great as any differences between the two religions.

I am not even sure why you are comparing Jews with Muslims

Because what the two religions believe about God is substantially the same, and because most members of both religions agree that they worship the same God; and most importantly because Jews deny all the Christian beliefs about the nature of God that Muslims deny, and more besides.

. The God of Jews is actually the one true God.

Agreed. And it follows that the God of Muslims is as well, since the God of Jews and the God of Muslims are clearly the same.

When the Jews say that God destroyed Sodom, that is not fiction. It is true. When Jews say that God gave the ten commandments, it is not fiction, it is true.

But when Islam says that God gave them the Qur’an, that is a false claim. So I don’t see the similarity between Jews and Muslims.

But we’re talking about God’s nature, not God’s actions.I agree, of course, that actions reveal nature. But one can ascribe actions to God that God did not do without believing in a false god.

 

[Contarini]

The only claim I can see you make is that Jews don’t accept Christ. But what I would like to point out is that though they don’t accept, what they have as Divine Revelation is 100% true. They just don’t want to believe in the extra bit of revelation that came after.

So Jesus is just an “extra bit” of revelation? I think Mickey’s position (while I disagree with it strongly) is much more tenable than yours. It’s theologically consistent and takes the Trinity and Incarnation with the utmost seriousness.

Having the same God is surely reciprocal. Your claim seems to be that if someone accepts as divine revelation what is not divine revelation, one worships a false god, but if someone does not accept as divine revelation what is divine revelation, one may still be worshiping the true God.

But it follows from this that Jews ought to regard us as worshiping a false god, since we accept as divine revelation what is not divine revelation. It would then follow that if the Jews are right, we don’t have the same God, but if we are right, then we do. Similarly, if Muslims are right, we and the Jews do have the same God with them, but if they are wrong, then we don’t. That seems an odd way of looking at it to me, constructed simply because it gives you the result you want rather than because of any intrinsic merit of the position.

Surely subtracting from God’s revelation is, if anything, worse than adding to it? (Granted, Muslims do both!)

In the Muslim case, none of which they have is Divine Revelation.

I think your argument is overly Protestant in two respects:

1. You identify Divine Revelation solely with verbal revelation. In other words, we believe that the words of Scripture are inspired but the words of the Qur’an aren’t. But since much (not all) of the content of the Qur’an is taken from divine revelation, your claim that Muslims don’t have Divine Revelation is unconvincing. They have it in terms of content and ideas–what they don’t have is a Scripture that is actually verbally inspired, as they claim.
2. In describing the relationship between Christianity and Judaism, you play down the importance of interpretation drastically. When I talk to Jews or read Jewish writings, I’m always struck by how differently they see the same texts. I don’t say this as a condemnation of Judaism–often I find their perspective refreshing and helpful. But Christians often fall into the error of regarding Judaism as just Christianity with some bits missing, and you seem to have done this. This isn’t an accurate picture, I would say.

As for the discussion of “follow,” let me clarify:

The position I’m defending here would still be true even if no Muslims “followed” the God of Abraham in the sense of doing His will and being pleasing to Him. That’s a separate issue–I stand with Vatican II there as well, in taking an “inclusivist” view of the salvation of non-Christians. But one can worship the true God falsely or insincerely and thus fail to reach salvation even though the God who is the object of one’s belief and (objectively speaking) of one’s worship is the true God. I think you’re confusing these two issues.

Edwin

 

[couponfit]

The same goal in mind?!? How do you figure? They reject Christ. There is no common goal.

If the goal is world peace. Then the goal is the same.

 

[couponfit]

So unless we know that the muslim has converted…or is in the process of converting to a faith in Christ…common prayer is not recommended. Correct?

You’ll need to review the church’s guidelines. It was not discouraging interfaith prayer nor is it sinful or against church teachings. Such prayer is not required. But I do take lead from Pope Benedict that it should be without compromise and there should be effort made to show respect but not endorsement.

 

[jam070406]

If the goal is world peace. Then the goal is the same.

Matthew 10:
33. But whoever denies me before men I also will deny before My Father who is in Heaven.
34. But do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth, I have not come not to bring peace, but a sword.

 

[jam070406]

Why start there? You start there in order to get the answer you want. Why do you want that answer so badly?

Muslims, after all, don’t start there (in the relevant sense). They don’t claim that God was unknown before the Qur’an came along. They claim that the Qur’an is the fullest revelation from the God who was revealing himself ever since the beginning. It is therefore irrational and unjust to define the “Islamic God” solely in terms of the Qur’an.

It is far more accurate, as well as more charitable, to say that Muslims falsely believe that God revealed the Qur’an than to say that they falsely believe their god (who revealed the Qur’an) to be the true God.

Right, but that’s not a very reasonable way to look at it for the reasons I gave above.

We need to keep coming back to the parallel with the Jews, little as folks on your side of the debate want to do so. We don’t, as Christians, claim that the true God was utterly unknown before Jesus was born. That’s Marcionism, even leaving aside natural revelation. We claim that He wasn’t fully known. It would be unreasonable for a Jew to dismiss our identification of our God with the God of Abraham and the creator of the universe and say, “Christians worship a false god who is the Father of Jesus.” Rather, it would be appropriate for them to say (as they do, in my experience, say), “Christians mistakenly believe that the one God, the God of Israel, is Triune and sent His Son Jesus into the world to save us.”

Part of the problem here, first of all, is that phrases like “follow Christ” and “know God” have connotations referring to someone’s spiritual condition. A person who holds the beliefs you describe isn’t following Christ’s footsteps or Christ’s true teachings. But if such a person believes that the historical Jesus of Nazareth, who is also the Son of God, taught these things, then it is more accurate to say that such a person falsely ascribes these things to Jesus than that such a person isn’t talking about Jesus at all.

Now I think that your equation of Islam to Nazism is nonsense. I think there’s a lot more in common between Islam and Christianity than that from an ethical and spiritual point of view, and that most of the stuff people hold against Islam can be found in Christianity and/or the Bible (though arguably with some safeguards that don’t exist in Islam). But that isn’t the point here. Even if your analogy were accurate and not the offensive travesty it is, your argument would fail.

Edwin

Claiming Muslims believed God was unknown before the Koran came along is a totally weak argument. They rejected Divine revelation for a false god, in a false book and attempted to force that false god on Europe and the middle East by the sword.
It is perfectly just to say Muslims worship the Islamic god, because they do. And they need to repent, believe in the gospel and be baptized for the salvation of their soul. This is true charity.

You are perfectly free to hold in esteem Islam, which blasphemes and denies our Lord and Savior and created many martyrs but I, like others, love our Lord too much and will not praise a false, evil religion not from God.

 

[rinnie]

We are not talking about believing that Muslims are right! That’s make that clear. We are talking about interfaith relations. In the Nostra Aetate examples of why this was necessary were previous wars over indifferences. So the teaching is we don’t go to war over our views. Further the guidelines express that we can pray with muslims in concert but not compromise on our views. So the faith that Jesus is true and the one God is not at question. The question is, can a catholic pray with Muslims at the same time in the same place.

I agree, I have been stressing this point throughout this thread it keeps getting lost.

We have both said numerous times that although we do not agree that Muslims have the fullness of the truth, the truth we do agree on is the God Of Abraham. Do Muslims proclaim to have the same God as us, the God of Abraham and according to our Church teaching the answer is yes.

 

[rinnie]

No, no. no. They consciously and knowingly reject the Triune God. That is why there is no other logical possibility.

Hold on here, this is a very powerful statement. So you are saying that they indeed have had the truth revealed to them by the Power of the Holy Spirit and still deny Christ as the second person in the Trinity? Let me make sure I am clear on what you are saying.

Because there is a big difference in knowing the truth that was revealed to you by God and rejecting it, and no having the fullness of the truth and being held responsible for it.

 

[couponfit]

Matthew 10:
33. But whoever denies me before men I also will deny before My Father who is in Heaven.
34. But do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth, I have not come not to bring peace, but a sword.

Good points that I do not dispute.

Here is the church’s declaration on the matter which is not errant or lacking in authority:

“3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.”

1. We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man’s relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: “He who does not love does not know God” (1 John 4:8).

Source: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

References: Cf St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania (Pl. 148, col. 450f.)

Under the Declaration of Nostra Aetate the Holy See established as a dicastery within the Roman Curia the Commission for Religious Relations with Muslims (CRRM) in 1964, as a distinct body, now under the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. The council publishes the Pro Dialogo 3 times a year.

 

[rinnie]

Come on everyone, how come you are still at this topic?

This is just a matter of perspective here. The ones disagreeing that Allah is not the same God is looking at the issue from one perspective and those claiming it is the same God is looking at it with another.

Depending on what context you are dealing with, each one is important to be noted. VII merely highlights the important fact that Muslims are trying to or think they are following the God of Abraham. So credit is given to them to that end. But they obviously do not follow the God of Abraham but some non-existent being that they believe revealed the Koran.

WHere was the question asked if they FOLLOW the true word of God? I never saw that questioned addressed. The question was do they PRAY to the ONE TRUE GOD, the GOD of Abraham and the answer taught by our CCC is Yes.

As I stated earlier if we can only pray with those who have the Fullness of the Truth, then we have many problems in this world.

Catholics and Protestants disagree on many things. As I mentioned in my eyes is there really a big difference in denying Christ in the Eucharist as denying him in the 3 persons of the Trinity. I don’t think so, Are they both a denial of Christ.

The fullness of the truth reveals that Christ is indeed the living bread from heaven and the Living Eucharist, and is indeed the 2nd person in the Trinity.

So to the point why can I pray with a Christian who accepts Christ as the 2nd person in the Trinity, but who deny’s him in the Eucharist. But then NOT be able to pray with a person who deny’s him in the Trinity, but accepts the One True God of Abraham.

Why the double standard here then. Do not both in thier own way deny Christ in a sense, according to the CC?

 

[Mickey]

Such prayer is not required.

There are Catholics here trying to say that it is binding to believe that the Muslim god is the same as the Christian God according to some VII documents. Do you say it is not binding to believe this?

 

[Mickey]

Claiming Muslims believed God was unknown before the Koran came along is a totally weak argument.

Agreed.

 

[Mickey]

Do Muslims proclaim to have the same God as us, the God of Abraham and according to our Church teaching the answer is yes.

No way.

 

[rinnie]

Not obvious at all.

I am not convinced by their claim that the God of Abraham revealed the Qur’an. But that doesn’t justify me in saying that they follow some non-existent being instead of the God of Abraham.

This is not a trivial issue. It has huge consequences for Christian theology and for peace in the world. On one side is Christian tradition, sound reason, charity, and justice. On the other mere prejudice and the flawed opinion of some medieval Byzantine scholars based on a bad translation.

Edwin

Oh Thank you Edwin. The point we have ALL been trying to make for so long!!

 

[Mickey]

Hold on here, this is a very powerful statement. So you are saying that they indeed have had the truth revealed to them

Of course rinnie. Do you think they live in a vacuum? The truth is apparent in the OT. That same truth is reinforced in the NT. It is further reinforced through the Sacred Tradition and the Holy Fathers…and they consciously and knowingly reject that truth…the truth of Jesus Christ.

 

[rinnie]

No way.

Okay Mickey then as I asked you earlier, show me where you have the authority to teach in the name of Christ and the authority to trump the teaching of the CCC.

Until then the answer of No Way is not going to cut it.

So then if a Muslim denies the Trinity and says NO WAY what is the difference?

Do you get my Point? You have no authority to teach nor do they. But the Pope does and he has the Promise of God to teach with the voice of Christ.

And the CCC is a teaching of Christ in his Church.

SO you denial holds no merit.

 

[jam070406]

Good points that I do not dispute.

Here is the church’s declaration on the matter which is not errant or lacking in authority:

“3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.”

1. We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man’s relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: “He who does not love does not know God” (1 John 4:8).

Source: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

References: Cf St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania (Pl. 148, col. 450f.)

Under the Declaration of Nostra Aetate the Holy See established as a dicastery within the Roman Curia the Commission for Religious Relations with Muslims (CRRM) in 1964, as a distinct body, now under the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. The council publishes the Pro Dialogo 3 times a year.

Two points come to mind.

1. Who is the one God subsisting in himself? It does not say it is the Father.
   Our God is the Trinity.
2. Section 5 could be used to admonish Muslims, who’s doctrines advocate the use of violence in the name of God. It suggests Muslims do not know the Father.
   God is love.