J
jam070406
Guest
Jesus, the one true God, said love your enemies. Not kill them if they read a Bible.
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R
rinnie
Guest
What?
J
jam070406
Guest
What part do you not understand?What?
C
couponfit
Guest
That’s a great question! My short answer is: You are not required by doctrine to go seek out muslims and pray with them.
My long answer is:
This is probably the best question here on this discussion and really means a lot. I fear to answer it though as it’s a difficult thing to understand let alone explain and because this is doctrinal I will use a lot of quotes. I unfortunately will have to discuss the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium, The Ecumenical Declaration of Nostra Aetate, the catechism, and a papal statement at the Conference of Catholic Bishops. From Nostra Aetate we get a great paragraph that states your question is the wrong question. Is the view of Muslims of God correct and complete is simply answered with a NO! But are Muslims children of God? If you read these documents with that question in mind then you might understand the doctrine better.
As Catholics we treat all mankind, even Muslims who agree on many elements of faith and share common social beliefs as part of our society, as our brothers, and more importantly as children of God (yes Our God even though we know they have major theological difference). During every liturgical mass of the ordinary form we express the rite of peace to all in attendance for all to receive by their free will. As Catholics we even treat atheists as children of God. We do not omit ourselves from a group prayer in school because muslims are in the room. If a Muslim is in a catholic church during mass we do not stop. We do not threaten them or harass them on basis of their faith which was addressed specifically in Nostra Aetate as the theme. We do not discriminate. Instead because they are members of our society we embrace them. We can do this by praying with them as a child of God.
Here’s the reference from Nostra Aetate: “We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man’s relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: “He who does not love does not know God” (1 John 4:8)”.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, pargraph 841, which quotes Lumen Gentium: "The Church’s relationship with Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic church 2nd edition, ‘together with us (Catholics) they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful God.’ Pope John Paul II repeats this statement even more clearly. Addressing Muslim youths, the Pope said: ‘We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection’ (What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, US Conference of Catholic Bishops, usccb.org/seia/brunett.htm).
Referenced to this is Lumen Gentium paragraph 16. Here’s that link: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html. Lumen Gentium is long and expansive and to get it’s true meaning you’ll have to read it all then you can take the paragraph on muslims in context to the words.
Nostra Aetate in reference 5 references Pope Gregory VII’s letter during the 11th century to a Muslim King. Here is a abstract of one portion so I am including a link that I could find: s10.zetaboards.com/Catholic_CyberForum/topic/105116/1/
I can see from many writings on this that it can be confusing because it appears to deny Christ as part of God. But notice key words that “Muslims are included in the plan”. To me that means that they are not forfeited, they are devoid of the opportunity for salvation as we all are. Yes, we have the same God because there is only one God so no one can really have a different God from our Catholic perspective. God is the God of All even if they have a view of the trinity that is not compatible with Catholic Doctrine and even if they deny christ and even if they deny God himself–he’s still their God.
There’s an inspirational story that might help: A man dies and arrives in heaven along a beach, as he looks back on his life he can see his footprints in the sand along with Christ’s. The man asks why there was only one set of footprints when the man was lost and did not have faith and was at his worst. Christ replied, that’s when I carried you! Even when we refuse Christ he is still there for us!
This dogmatic constitution of Lumen Gentiuma and the Declaration of Nostra Aetate are not infallible but not errant. They are meant to explain our faiths and morals more clearly and are authoritative.
I hope this clears up your question and feel free to ask for clarification. But I have to be honest that if you really are having concerns with this, you should write them down and have a private discussion with your priest. These issues can be important to some of us and if you get the right answer it can really change your life. I didn’t figure out or come to such acceptance of interfaith relations and prayer until after I had a heart to heart with my priest.
R
rinnie
Guest
What you just said. Please read number 3 of NOSTRA AETATE.
R
rinnie
Guest
Where did I ever state otherwise?
J
jam070406
Guest
I did. It does not say Muslims worship the one true God, the Trinity.
Please read 5. Which is from a letter of Pope Gregory VII to the Islamic King, who conquered Mauritania.
R
rinnie
Guest
Number 5 states that WE cannot truly call on God the Father of all if WE refuse to Treat in a brotherly way ANY MAN created as he is in the image of God.
What is your point here??
R
rinnie
Guest
[SIGN][/SIGN]
Where does this state that we do NOT believe in the same Creator? You have me lost here.
J
jam070406
Guest
It also says:Number 5 states that WE cannot truly call on God the Father of all if WE refuse to Treat in a brotherly way ANY MAN created as he is in the image of God.
What is your point here??
“He who does not love does not know God”
It was written by a Pope to an Islamic King regarding their attitude towards non Muslims.
J
jam070406
Guest
It says the Creator they profess is one god subsisting in himself. Clearly not the Christian God, the Trinity. It only affirms they are monotheistic.
R
rinnie
Guest
We only believe in ONE God also.
P
passer_by
Guest
Sigh, so according to your logic, all religions, as long as they espouse a monotheistic God is worshiping the God of Abraham
You really don’t see a problem with how you define similarity here?
I can make up any religion tomorrow, have a monotheistic God in it, I would even thrown in some books from the OT together with some other books I would write advocating extermination of all other religions and label it as the Book of Rinnie which was divinely revealed by God. Now when the followers of that faith worship that God, is that the same God?
What is your definition of “same”? Is it that they are all monotheistic? If that is your definition, bravo! Good!
But normal people don’t judge similarity that way. So far as we are concerned, the God of Islam and that fictional Rinnie God I can make are not the same God as God of Abraham.
P
passer_by
Guest
Everyone is included in the plan for salvation. The grace of Christ is available to everyone if they choose to accept.
Those who are outside the Catholic Church, are outside the mystical body of Christ. They can have various degrees of relationship with the Mystical Body of Christ but they are outside. (POPE PIUS XII - Mystici Corporis Christi)
So our goal is to bring them back in to the Catholic Church. That has always been and will always be the goal of our actions.
Praying together is fine with an ecumenical focus. But the church in no way advocates praying with Muslims in the sense that 'everything is fine, you be a good Muslim and I will be a Good Catholic"
R
rinnie
Guest
This is NOT MY Logic. This is the teaching of the RCC. Why do you continue to say this is MY teaching. It is not. I showed you the teaching in the CCC. What else can I do?Sigh, so according to your logic, all religions, as long as they espouse a monotheistic God is worshiping the God of Abraham
You really don’t see a problem with how you define similarity here?
I can make up any religion tomorrow, have a monotheistic God in it, I would even thrown in some books from the OT together with some other books I would write advocating extermination of all other religions and label it as the Book of Rinnie which was divinely revealed by God. Now when the followers of that faith worship that God, is that the same God?
What is your definition of “same”? Is it that they are all monotheistic? If that is your definition, bravo! Good!
But normal people don’t judge similarity that way. So far as we are concerned, the God of Islam and that fictional Rinnie God I can make are not the same God as God of Abraham.
And where did I say that because they Pray to and Worship the Same God as I, that they have the fullness of the truth. They do not! Or follow the TEACHINGS of the One True God.
Where did I ever say if you pray to the One True God you have the fullness of the faith?
Where did I say if you pray to the One True God you cannot be led astray by others claiming to have his truth?
I never said any such thing. ANd how can you say the God of Abraham, and the God Of Rinnie are fictional if they are ONE in the SAME with the RCC?
So is the God of the Lutheran Church’s false if they do not submit to the teaching’'s of the RCC? You make no sense to me.
Because Muslims are misled by a false prophet has nothing to do with the GOD of the false prophet being the God of Abraham.
You are Roman Catholic, I am Roman Catholic we have the same God. BUt if I say to you I had a revelation from God to kill someone and we have the same God, does that mean my revelation came from the True God? Of course not.
But If I mislead you and you believe me, how does that take away that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God. That is what you are doing to the Muslims.
Many People who believe in the One True God are misled by others. Where is it written if you pray to the One True God you will never be misled by others?
On the contrary, the bible is full of warning’s to beware of People trying to teach in the name of God. Jesus himself revealed this to us, he said many will say, Father did I not teach in your name? And Jesus answered I do not know you.
That is why we are told to hold fast to the Traditons we are taught by the Early Fathers of our Church, rather written or oral. That is why we are taught the CHURCH is the pilar of all truth.
R
rinnie
Guest
Where would any of this change the truth that if you pray to the God of Abraham you have the true God.Sigh, so according to your logic, all religions, as long as they espouse a monotheistic God is worshiping the God of Abraham
You really don’t see a problem with how you define similarity here?
I can make up any religion tomorrow, have a monotheistic God in it, I would even thrown in some books from the OT together with some other books I would write advocating extermination of all other religions and label it as the Book of Rinnie which was divinely revealed by God. Now when the followers of that faith worship that God, is that the same God?
What is your definition of “same”? Is it that they are all monotheistic? If that is your definition, bravo! Good!
But normal people don’t judge similarity that way. So far as we are concerned, the God of Islam and that fictional Rinnie God I can make are not the same God as God of Abraham.
What you are saying makes no sense. Jesus warned us at the ends of times many of US will be fooled. SO now if we are fooled, and walk away from the RCC because of a false teaching of someone else, it makes the full God of the Trinity a false God also? Do you see what I am trying to say to you?
M
Mickey
Guest
This is the part that I question and believe to be in gross error. Muslims do not profess the faith of Abraham…whose God is the Triune God.
They profess the faith of mohammed. Therefore they do not adore the one (Triune) God.
I have already done that. My priest gives a different answer than yours.
And when I was Eastern Catholic…I spoke with priests and monks who agreed.
J
jam070406
Guest
Yes, very confusing. If they profess the Faith of Abraham then they indeed will adore the one true God because they will now be Christian.This is the part that I question and believe to be in gross error. Muslims do not profess the faith of Abraham…whose God is the Triune God.
They profess the faith of mohammed. Therefore they do not adore the one (Triune) God.
I have already done that. My priest gives a different answer than yours.
And when I was Eastern Catholic…I spoke with priests and monks who agreed.
But professing to hold and actually holding are two entirely different things.
J
jam070406
Guest
How would it change the Truth?? It would presume that their worship is pleasing to God and it would totally negate the importance of Christ crucified!
R
rinnie
Guest
Could you supply an official Church statement that says that the Eastern Catholic Church claims that Muslims do not adore the One God.This is the part that I question and believe to be in gross error. Muslims do not profess the faith of Abraham…whose God is the Triune God.
They profess the faith of mohammed. Therefore they do not adore the one (Triune) God.
I have already done that. My priest gives a different answer than yours.
And when I was Eastern Catholic…I spoke with priests and monks who agreed.
Proof that they are in direct conflict with the teaching of the CCC that quotes to you that they indeed DO profess the faith of Abraham.
I need an official Church teaching that states opposite.
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