Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[meltzerboy]

They were a type of the Holy Trinity. Read the Church Fathers.

Not according to a careful reading as interpreted by Jewish scholars! And what does a “type” of the Holy Trinity mean? Can and should one compare the Trinity to other triads that are forerunners?

 

[rinnie]

You’d best read a bit more.

What she is trying to say Mickey and what I am trying to say is this. While we agree that YES while the 3 that did visit Abraham were indeed the Trinity, this was not truly revealed to us until the N.T.

If Abraham taught this then, Jews would have never denied Christ in the Trinity.

IF you are right then why is it that it is Christ who revealed to us that God is the Father? Abraham did not reveal this to us.

Where did Abraham reveal to us that God is the Father.

According to scripture only the Son is capable of introducing the Trinity. Jn. 1:18 No one has ever seen God, The Only SOn, God who is at the Fathers side has revealed him.

 

[Luvtosew]

What do muslins have to do with the fact you have gay friends? I was referring to people calling Muslims “Muslins” (which is a cotton fabric). Do you call your gay friend slanderous gay terms? Somehow, I think not…

All of that because I didn’t spell Muslims right, you must be a teacher!

well being a sewer please excuse me.

 

[rinnie]

They were a type of the Holy Trinity. Read the Church Fathers.

There is no such thing as a TYPE of the Holy Trinity, There is only ONE HOLY TRINITY.

The proof that Christ was a part of the Holy Trinity is simply from his words before Abraham I Am.

Christ is fully God, that is not a question, and Christ was always ONE in being with God. The One God, lets not get confused on this matter.

But the 3 person in ONE GOD was not a teaching until Christ revealed this truth to us. That is the point I am trying to make. Abraham never revealed the Trinity, he said that there was the Lord and 2 angels. He never said the 3 men were the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, One God in 3 persons One in Being. This came from Christ not Abraham.

 

[rinnie]

How could our Pope pray with Muslims, and the forbid us to. He would not do any such thing.

We are taught as Roman Catholic to repect and Love all people no matter what they are. And to admire them for the truth that they do have, and to pray that they can come to the fullness of the truth with Christ Jesus in his Holy Catholic Church.

ALL are welcome in the RCC. As St Peter stood up and stated to the Councils all are welcome Jews and Gentiles alike are to be accepted into the ONE Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. No one is ever turned away from the True Church.

 

[rinnie]

The strangers were angels.

Jesus had not yet been born. His coming was prophesied, but He was not yet on Earth.

Now think what you are saying here, Jesus is God made Man, Jesus is God revealed to us as Man, But remember Jesus was always a part of God, simply because there is only ONE GOD. Remember Jesus is HUMAN and DIVINE.

 

[Mickey]

Not according to a careful reading as interpreted by Jewish scholars!

I get my interpretations on this from the Church Fathers…not the Jewish scholars.

 

[Mickey]

What she is trying to say Mickey and what I am trying to say is this. While we agree that YES while the 3 that did visit Abraham were indeed the Trinity, this was not truly revealed to us until the N.T.

Abraham was aware who they were.

If Abraham taught this then, Jews would have never denied Christ in the Trinity…

How do you know this?

IF you are right then why is it that it is Christ who revealed to us that God is the Father? Abraham did not reveal this to us.

Huh?

Where did Abraham reveal to us that God is the Father.

Huh?

According to scripture only the Son is capable of introducing the Trinity. Jn. 1:18 No one has ever seen God, The Only SOn, God who is at the Fathers side has revealed him.

Huh?

 

[jakasaki]

How does muslin pray? There is a muslin prophet? Would this be this:http://textiletechinfo.com/images/cotton-plant.jpg

Laughing so hard…! I didn’t notice the spelling… DUH!!!

You got me poster…!!!

Best regards
Pam

 

[Mickey]

There is no such thing as a TYPE of the Holy Trinity, There is only ONE HOLY TRINITY.

Oh rinnie…please. Your Church is rife with theology about types in the OT…including the Trinity. You are grasping at straws now.

he said that there was the Lord and 2 angels. He never said the 3 men were the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, One God in 3 persons One in Being. This came from Christ not Abraham.

Abraham saw Christ…and he knew it. What more do you want?

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad”. Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am”.
John 8:56-58

 

[jonbhorton]

What do muslins have to do with the fact you have gay friends? I was referring to people calling Muslims “Muslins” (which is a cotton fabric). Do you call your gay friend slanderous gay terms? Somehow, I think not…

I was building on the fact of two things:

1. It might have been on purpose that she was using “lin” instead of “lim”.
2. that just because I disagree entirely with that to which someone subscribes, including how they describe themselves, does not mean I apply that to my treatment in an interpersonal context of those same people. Nor does it mean I intend application of any perceived epithet to those people as souls for which Christ died and rose again. Despite that, I am not going to call NAMBLA and its members anything which lends credence to their perversions. Same thing with mohammedanism.

Here’s another example, lest you still not get it:

I despise… DESPISE socialism, communism, marxism, or anything that even LOOKS like those evil systems. I constantly use phrases like “dirty rotten marxist”. I have a friend which is a registered socialist and is all about a certain man who has yet to prove he is eligible for office. Said friend is also the “worship” leader at his “church” which is rife with doctrinal error, yet another thing I despise. However, I still am friends with him even though we agree on almost nothing politically, and disagree on much theologically.

Labels are clothes we wear in our mind. They hide the nakedness of our true self.

I’m just not willing to tell the emperor his new clothes look great while his nakedness is staring me in the face. How else shall he know he is actually naked? How else can he scramble for the white linens provided by the Church, without fully knowing the need?

 

[boleyn2010]

mohammedanism is ideology wrapped in the cloak of religion, and the ideology and political structure is very much described in earthly terms of governance and political structure. The ultimate goal is a worldwide Caliphate. It’s everything the Pharisees did but without much in the way of actual religion. It’s the strong man religion the true Zionists (which is wholly political in nature) want to bring to effect. Judaism, however, is not necessarily Zionism as charged. Christianity has no political goals and has always been understood as primarily a spiritual ideology. This is why the Church does not officially endorse any political system, but does condemn some based on their inherent incompatibility with justice and human dignity.

I would add to your comment that mohammedism was forged as an amalgam of aspects of Judaism, heretical christian doctrine, zoroastraism and ancient Arabic paganism, by a man, in a cave on his own. To say that his followers “believe” in the one true God is a mistaken concept. As a previous writer stated, one may attach a label to anything and call it by that name, but a label does not make it that which it claims to be. They may think they do (believe) but in reality the god they worship (from their “holy” books) reveals itself as contradictory, lacking in chronology, history and geographics, spiteful yet merciful, loving yet merciless. And despite the fact that their good works are weighed against their bad deeds, (thus an encouragement to do more good than bad in an effort to get to paradise) it makes no difference because their fate is pre-determined from the outset.
I could go on, but suffice it to say I am extremely dubious as to the claim of divine revelation in the mohammeden texts, something which the Chritians and Jews of his day also rejected. Having “prayed” facing Jerusalem for seven months whilst trying to sell his “religion” to the Jews and Christians, and being rejected, Mohammed then turned his “prayer” to the current site at Mecca, which was a pagan shrine in which resided a black meteorite. And subsequently persecuted both Jew and Christian alike…
BTW. There are schools of thought concerning the name allah, which was the name of their pagan “moon” god. Interesting one that!
Peace be with you
Francis

 

[Mickey]

How could our Pope pray with Muslims, and then forbid us to.

I still don’t see anything where your pope encourages the faithful to pray with Muslims. But if that’s what you want to do…you most certainly have free will to do it.

 

[TMC]

The strangers were angels.

Jesus had not yet been born. His coming was prophesied, but He was not yet on Earth.

They were a type of the Holy Trinity. Read the Church Fathers.

Not sure what this has to so with praying with Muslims (which is perfectly fine, IMO), but the three visitors are sometimes thought of as three angels, but more often as two angels plus God. (If the three are all angels, it must be three angels plus God, because Abraham clearly as a conversation with God.)

The text is somewhat unclear, but reading Genesis 18 and 19 together it is clear that one of the visitors to Abraham was God and the other two were angels. Genesis 18:1 makes clear that one of the visitors is “the Lord”. As Genesis 18 goes on, Abraham realizes this and discusses Sodom with the Lord. God sends that other two men on to see what is going in in Sodom, and in Genesis 19:1 it is revealed that the two men are actually angels (“the two angels reached Sodom in the evening”)

 

[Mickey]

Not sure what this has to so with praying with Muslims (which is perfectly fine, IMO), but the three visitors are sometimes thought of as three angels, but more often as two angels plus God.

The most common interpretation is the Holy Trinity in the form of three angels/visitors/messengers. An alternate interpretation is two angels plus Christ.

 

[passer_by]

What she is trying to say Mickey and what I am trying to say is this. While we agree that YES while the 3 that did visit Abraham were indeed the Trinity, this was not truly revealed to us until the N.T.

If Abraham taught this then, Jews would have never denied Christ in the Trinity.

IF you are right then why is it that it is Christ who revealed to us that God is the Father? Abraham did not reveal this to us.

Where did Abraham reveal to us that God is the Father.

According to scripture only the Son is capable of introducing the Trinity. Jn. 1:18 No one has ever seen God, The Only SOn, God who is at the Fathers side has revealed him.

Forget the Trinity buddy.

Under your definition, if I defined a blood thirsty insane God and slapped the label “God of Abraham” then that would be considered to be the one True God of Christianity too.

I think this whole confusion is because you are taking the words of CCC and putting your own spin to it.

 

[TMC]

The most common interpretation is the Holy Trinity in the form of three angels/visitors/messengers. An alternate interpretation is two angels plus Christ.

I don’t agree that is the “most common” interpretation. How do you square your interpretation with the explict statement in Genesis 19 that the other two visitors are angels?

Edit - to clarify, I do agree that two angels plus Christ is a common (although probably not the most common) interpretation, because of the apparent link to John 8:56, but the text itself refers to Yahweh, so I think it is a stretch to derive from the text that Abraham knew that the visitor was Christ, certainly there is no textual evidence of it.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t agree that is the “most common” interpretation.

You don’t have to agree.

In his Dialogue with Trypho, St Justin Martyr writes:****
‘He who is called God and appeared to the patriarchs is called both Angel and Lord, in order that from this you may understand Him to be minister to the Father of all things… He… appeared as a man to Abraham, and… wrestled in human form with Jacob’
[LVIII]

The Church historian, Eusebius, also describes the scene as a manifestation of ‘our Lord and Saviour’ accompanied by angels.

The Church Fathers teach us that everything in the Old Testament is about Christ.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t agree that is the “most common” interpretation.

Actually, it may not be “the most” common.

But the alternatives are:

Christ with two angels
Three angels as a figure of the Trinity
Three persons as a figure of the Trinity

And so it still stands that Abraham knew Christ. The Muslims deny Christ in the OT.

And so they do not worship the same God.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

Muslims have a distorted vision of God, as do Jews.

Praying with them gives no fruitful outcome.

I don’t even think it’d be a stretch to say that the Muslim God was not the same as ours.

You seem to have a lot of pride/bitterness locked up. I’d pray for understanding if I were you. Praying with our muslim bretheren is no sin. While their religion is imperfect it is more Christian then they realize. Not in the promises made to them, but they have the utmost respect for Christ (while denying His divinity), we worship the same Father, and they have an admirable respect for the Virgin Mary. For crying out loud, muslims have more respect for Mary than protestants do!!! That tells you something! We pray with them and pray for their conversion. How will they ever learn about Christ if they never hear about Him? The more interaction they have with our Catholic brothers and sisters, the higher the chances are that the Holy Spirit will work His way into their lives and bring them into understanding the Truth about our beloved Lord and Savior.