Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[jonbhorton]

I don’t agree that is the “most common” interpretation. How do you square your interpretation with the explict statement in Genesis 19 that the other two visitors are angels?

Just one reason might be the fact that despite common interpretation of Jesus being the one in the furnace with Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego, the 4th one in the furnace is described as looking like the Son of God, but specifically named as an angel. This is not uncommon.

If you re-read Chapters 18 and 19 more carefully, you will see the same pattern. That three appeared despite originally being called the LORD, and not The LORD and two angels, gives credence to this. Further on, the language implies the omnipresent ability of God.

Verse 21, chap 19 specifically says “I” as the Lord self-identifies. Yet, He sends two “angels”. In Hebrew, that’s malach and can also mean:

ambassador, angel, king, messenger

From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. An angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher) – ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

It appears to me yet another foreshadowing of sending the Word/Son to Incarnation along with the Holy Spirit. Can we say this was actually the Trinity for certain? Not unless we have a time machine or God sends out a clarification. My gut says yes, given the language and other examples.

What does this have to do with talking/praying/evangelizing the followers of mohammed? A metric ton actually. Properly understanding scripture and the foreshadowing of Christ in OT scripture establishes contextual fluidity, the very thing the koran accuses the Bible of not having. The supposed “lack” of this to their eyes is what keeps them in disbelief. Christians being afraid of understanding the OT, is not helping matters.

The Bible, specifically the OT, and its effect on Christological doctrine, is only scary if one remains scared. The entire Bible is in one way or another about one thing: Salvation. And that only comes through Jesus Christ.

If we want any dialogue with those who subject themselves to mohammedanism, we must be prepared. They love taking the OT out of context more than anything. Know it, Love it, Defend it.

 

[jonbhorton]

You seem to have a lot of pride/bitterness locked up. I’d pray for understanding if I were you. Praying with our muslim bretheren is no sin. While their religion is imperfect it is more Christian then they realize. Not in the promises made to them, but they have the utmost respect for Christ (while denying His divinity), we worship the same Father, and they have an admirable respect for the Virgin Mary. For crying out loud, muslims have more respect for Mary than protestants do!!! That tells you something! We pray with them and pray for their conversion. How will they ever learn about Christ if they never hear about Him? The more interaction they have with our Catholic brothers and sisters, the higher the chances are that the Holy Spirit will work His way into their lives and bring them into understanding the Truth about our beloved Lord and Savior.

Saying they have respect for Christ and Mary in the context they do is like saying pornography is respectful of women. Just because a man finds a naked woman attractive and buys into that which ultimately destroys everything about said woman, does not mean he respects said woman in the least. If anything, he disrespects her more. Of course, said man would never admit to being a perverted misogynist, because he “respects” the woman.

Saying the version of Christ and Mary which mohammedanism espouses is respectful is like saying Jesus was merely a good teacher. If that’s all the person got from it, it doesn’t matter how true the statement is in part of the whole, they obviously didn’t learn a lick in class and fail unless the Teacher gives them a make-up test. Let’s hope He does, for I’d hate to have any pupil fail to graduate to Life.

Edit to add: Protestants don’t deny the Son, which is key, paramount, and part and parcel to Christianity. Protestants may or may not be respectful to Mary. The more traditional denominations in Protestantism, i.e. actual descendents of the original breakaway heretics, respect Mary immensely. Your observation is only correct with a faction of Protestantism, which itself is undefinable outside of “not Catholic”. You’re either ignorant of the facts of mohammedanism or have been duped by their propaganda.

 

[rinnie]

Oh rinnie…please. Your Church is rife with theology about types in the OT…including the Trinity. You are grasping at straws now.
Abraham saw Christ…and he knew it. What more do you want?

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad”. Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am”.
John 8:56-58

Mickey please show me where the Mystery of the Trinity was revealed before the Baptism of Christ at the Jordan.

I am sorry but according to the Teachings of the Church it is at that Moment when the Holy Spirit decends upons Christ that the mystery of the Trinity is revealed to all.

CCC 536

Please show me the Scripture in the O.T that Abraham reveals to us the mystery of the Holy Spirit. In the O.T its says that it is our Lord with 2 angels. Abraham never revealed to us that it was the Trinity. Like I said show me where its revealed in the O.T.

CCC 534 shows us here is where we catch a glimpse fo the mystery of his total consecration to a mission that flows from his divine sonship.

Now if we are well aware of this mystery how could we catch a glimpse here then?

I never denied that Abraham saw Christ, I want you to show me the scripture in the O.T when Abraham tells us that he saw Christ.

We know that he saw Christ only because Christ himself tells us that, not Abraham.

Please read The Revelation as God as Trinity in the CCC 238-248

And also Mickey if the Revelation of God as the Trinity was revealed in the O.T. Why did John the Baptist only baptise of the Water and not the Spirit. If the Trinity was revealed in the O.T. why were we not baptised in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit then?

ANd why then Mickey in 243 CCC Does it say that Jesus announced the sending of the Advocate the Holy Spirit. Why does the last sentence say the Holy Spriit is thur revealed as ANOTHER Divine Person with Jesus and the Father.

If the Holy Spirit THe Father and Jesus have been taught to us from the beginning why did Jesus reveal him before the Passover?

 

[rinnie]

Not sure what this has to so with praying with Muslims (which is perfectly fine, IMO), but the three visitors are sometimes thought of as three angels, but more often as two angels plus God. (If the three are all angels, it must be three angels plus God, because Abraham clearly as a conversation with God.)

The text is somewhat unclear, but reading Genesis 18 and 19 together it is clear that one of the visitors to Abraham was God and the other two were angels. Genesis 18:1 makes clear that one of the visitors is “the Lord”. As Genesis 18 goes on, Abraham realizes this and discusses Sodom with the Lord. God sends that other two men on to see what is going in in Sodom, and in Genesis 19:1 it is revealed that the two men are actually angels (“the two angels reached Sodom in the evening”)

This is exactly true, The key word here is revealed. It is not revealed to us until Christ reveals it in the N.T. The O.T. says 2 angels and our Lord.

 

[Mickey]

You seem to have a lot of pride/bitterness locked up.

I think he is a realist. Why do you judge him?

I’d pray for understanding if I were you.

I think he has very good understanding.

Praying with our muslim bretheren is no sin.

Praying for them is no sin.

While their religion is imperfect it is more Christian then they realize.

It is based on a false prophet and the Arian heresy.

we worship the same Father

I don’t believe so.

For crying out loud, muslims have more respect for Mary than protestants do!!!

For crying out loud…they deny the divinity of Christ!

How will they ever learn about Christ if they never hear about Him?

They’ve all heard about Him…they reject Him.

 

[Mickey]

My gut says yes, given the language and other examples.

My gut (and many of the Church Fathers) agrees with you.

The entire Bible is in one way or another about one thing: Salvation. And that only comes through Jesus Christ.

Amen.

If we want any dialogue with those who subject themselves to mohammedanism, we must be prepared. They love taking the OT out of context more than anything. Know it, Love it, Defend it.

Good post.

 

[TMC]

Actually, it may not be “the most” common.

But the alternatives are:

Christ with two angels
Three angels as a figure of the Trinity
Three persons as a figure of the Trinity

And so it still stands that Abraham knew Christ. The Muslims deny Christ in the OT.

And so they do not worship the same God.

Is that your point, that Muslims don’t worship the same God as Christians and Jews? Are you also saying that Islam is not an Abrahamic religion? If so, that is certainly not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey please show me where the Mystery of the Trinity was revealed before the Baptism of Christ at the Jordan.

I just did, Genesis 18. But it happens even earlier than that!

Gen 1:26
And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness:

Us/Our…get it?

In the O.T its says that it is our Lord with 2 angels.

Well…many of the Church Fathers say it is the Trinity. But for argument’s sake… let’s use the alternate which you have just stated. Christ with two angels (which can also be a type of the Trinity).

Christ is revealed here. And Muhammedism rejects Him.

I never denied that Abraham saw Christ

Islam does…that is why I do not engage in common prayer with them. I pray for them.

I want you to show me the scripture in the O.T when Abraham tells us that he saw Christ.

We are told that Abraham saw Christ…is that not good enough for you? The Muslims read our Bible and see that Christ was revealed to Abraham…and they still reject Him as the Son of God. Their god of Abraham is not the same as mine.

And also Mickey if the Revelation of God as the Trinity was revealed in the O.T. Why did John the Baptist only baptise of the Water and not the Spirit.

He was preparing the way for the Word made flesh. John’s was a baptism of repentance. Christ is revealed in the OT repeatedly. And so is the Holy Trinity…as early as Gen 1:26.

If the Trinity was revealed in the O.T. why were we not baptised in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit then?

There are many types of baptisms in the OT. The exodus (through water/Red Sea) is one of those times.
“If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me"
[John 5:46]

 

[Mickey]

Are you also saying that Islam is not an Abrahamic religion?

Yes.

If so, that is certainly not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

Is that taught as infallible doctrine?

 

[jonbhorton]

Is that your point, that Muslims don’t worship the same God as Christians and Jews? Are you also saying that Islam is not an Abrahamic religion? If so, that is certainly not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

The fact of circular arguments taking place may be causing some confusion. Please post your source for the doctrine/teaching. The language can often appear as one thing but mean another.

FWIW, here is what JPII was quoted as saying on the issue of mohammedanism in this book:

LINK





Combining these words with the CCC and other writings such as Lumen Gentium, it’s fairly easy to see that mohammedanism merely professes to believe in the same God as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (though they seek to supplant Isaac with Ishmael in the almost-sacrifice of Isaac and deny him as the proper heir). That doesn’t mean they do or that its semblance to Christianity and Judaism in certain regards makes it valid. It’s merely a profession of a truth which they don’t even grasp. I can’t say " I believe in Math! 2+2=936. See?", and have my belief in math be anymore than the idea that putting numbers together makes new numbers. Good idea, now learn to do math correctly. 2+2=4, and that’s a fact, Jack.

In fact, everything they profess which is true is historically undeniable. But the historicity of their claims regarding those professions is dubious and false. Further, they twist what truthful elements they have into a hodge-podge of theological nonsense.Their chronology is way off, as is everything else. It’s like someone played bingo with Bible verses and thought they won a doctrine after the entire bingo hall was cleared out and no one was drawing numbers but themselves. Sorry, mohammed, you can’t just go up and grab what looks like bingo and win when everyone else has stopped playing. You certainly can’t claim something is corrupt and then use it to back up a claim as established truth. Is it corrupt or not? If so, quit citing it as proof of your lies. If not, why have the audacity to make up new things. That’s dualistic and dualism is not found in either Judaism or Christianity. It makes no logical sense. Well, unless you’re insane. Then it might make sense.

 

[Tyuiop411]

A few years ago, an Episcopalian priestess decided that she was both Christian and Muslim… thereby demonstrating that she is, in fact, neither. The Episcopalian denomination she served even kicked her out. Pretty much everyone that I know of acknowledged what an impossible contradiction her attempt at radical syncretism was. People know that Christianity and Islam cannot both be true. They really do.

You really know you’ve gone off the rocker when the Episcopal church kicks you out for being too theologically liberal. But I do agree with you that joint prayer does not imply agreement with everything a religion teaches. As for the picture with Pope Benedict in the Hagia Sophia (it’s a museum now just so everyone knows, the plastered over icons have been restored), it looks like they’re not so much praying together as they are praying in the same room. The Muslim cleric is doing (judging by his hand position) one of the ritualistic daily Muslim prayers, while the Pope is simply standing there eyes shut inaudibly praying (from the look of it)

 

[israelcatholic]

hello, this is the original poster who asked the initial question. I am grateful and a bit overwhelmed by the number of responses. My apologies if I have missed anything specific that was addressed to me.

But to answer one question:

How do they pray together?
Are they in a church?
Are they in a mosque?

The incident happened in the Benedictine Dormition Abbey in Jerusalem. My understanding is that the group of Muslims prayed their own prayers and not Christian prayers. I would have to ask my friend who was a first-hand witness of the events for more details.

 

[sedonaman]

… You certainly can’t claim something is corrupt and then use it to back up a claim as established truth. …

That’s the thesis of this article:

“Evidentiary Religions – Islam Introduction”
biblestudying.net/islam1.html

It is somewhat long because of all the reference quotes, but you can skip over them and go back if you need to check them out.

 

[TMC]

Yes.
Is that taught as infallible doctrine?

Yes - it is infallibly taught that there is only one God - those that pray to God neccearily pray to the one God. Do you believe that there are multiple Gods?

 

[TMC]

From the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church:

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

That is a pretty clear statement in an authoritative and binding Church document – Muslims worship “along with us the one and mercifiul God.” I don’t know how anyone could read this and still say that the Church teaches that Muslims worship some other God. If people want to disagree with the Church on that point that is their right, but they should refrain from misrepresenting what the Church actually teaches.

 

[Mickey]

Yes - it is infallibly taught that there is only one God

That was not my question. Does Rome infallibly teach that the Muslims have the same God …and that we are encouraged to pray with them.

Do you believe that there are multiple Gods?

You do not need to be a smart alec.

 

[Mickey]

Muslims worship “along with us the one and mercifiul God.”

Is that an infallible “ex-cathedra” teaching/document?

 

[Mickey]

The incident happened in the Benedictine Dormition Abbey in Jerusalem. My understanding is that the group of Muslims prayed their own prayers and not Christian prayers.

Ouch.

 

[TMC]

That was not my question. Does Rome infallibly teach that the Muslims have the same God …and that we are encouraged to pray with them.
You do not need to be a smart alec.

I am not trying to be a smart alec. You claim that Muslims pray to a different God than Christians. That suggests that you believe that other Gods exist, else to whom are they praying?

 

[TMC]

Is that an infallible “ex-cathedra” teaching/document?

It is a dogmatic councilar document, which means all Catholics are bound to assent to its teachings or they are in dissent. If you are asking if it is infallible, with a few very rare exceptions, the Church has consistently declined to enumerate which teachings are infallible and which are not. It is commonly understood that only a few teachings are infallible. But infallibilty is not the standard for Cathoics as to whether a teaching is to be followed. A councilar statement in the Dogmatic Constitution is undeniably an official teaching of the Church.