Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[passer_by]

Sometimes, events like these interfaith prayer meetings can cause scandal to those who might be termed “the weaker brother [or sister].” I would think that it would be better to avoid engaging in such activities if they damage the faith of sincere Christians. There are certainly other ways to dialogue with Muslims (or others) without taking part in meetings that cause confusion or issues of conscience.

Absolutely right I feel!

And I think this is what Mickey was talking about taking Ecumenism too far. There has to be boundaries and the focus has to be correct.

There is no point trying to win others over while scandalizing and loosing ones own.

 

[Mickey]

There is no point trying to win others over while scandalizing and losing one’s own.

Amen my brother in Christ!

 

[rinnie]

I believe as many Catholic’s believe it will be the intercession of the Blessed Mother that will bring them to her Son.

The Koran has passages concerning the Blessed Virgin, they believe in the Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth.

It is our hope that those who show her much respect will someday accept her Divine Son as the True God.

The Blessed Mother has brought many to the faith by her love and complete trust in our our Lord.

Besides them accepting God as the Creator of heaven and Earth, they also accept Mary as the Mother of Jesus Christ. It is hopeful that she can somehow help to bring them to the fullness of our faith. IT is what we have in common that we can come together in Christ. And who better to help bring them to the fullness of our faith, then by the prayers of the Blessed Mother.

 

[rinnie]

Thank you couponfit. On May 14, 1999, I was a Latin Catholic (38 years and counting). My parents and much of my extended family remain Latin Catholic.

That was the day that Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran. I was scandalized. Many were scandalized. Deacons, priests, bishops, and monks were scandalized. Shortly thereafter…my journey took me East…first to the Byzantine Catholic Church…and finally to Holy Orthodoxy. The Pope’s over-reaching gesture of ecumenism was not the reason that I sojourned Eastward (there were many reasons). But I think there were many faithful Catholics who were scandalized by this gesture…and it saddens me to this day.

Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on us.

It is sad that many do not know the true heart of JPll. And find it in their own hearts to judge him.

I do not know of ONE Pope who has brought so many people together with his love for our dear Lord and his truth.

I wonder how many Muslims were touched by the power of the Holy Sprit that day, and because of that gesture were led to see the True God in the Trinity of the Catholic Church.

The Pope lived his life for our dear Lord and was touched by him by his power of the Holy Spirit when he became a Priest by the laying of hands of Holy Orders.

I am sure that God understands that he kissed the Koran, not for the untruth that it contained, but for the God Truth that it contained. The truth about the One God, the truth about his Blessed Mother.

I am sure it was his love for the Blessed Mother and their love for the Blessed Mother that planted many seeds of truth that day. I thank him for that, and it only makes him more of a Saint in my eyes.

People say he was over-reacting, etc, But I say he was moved by the Spirit of God for the Love of all God’s People. Showing them as he has stated many times, his love and admiration he had for them for the truth that they do have.

The Pope answers to no one but God, nor should he. I for one, Love him more then words can say, and I hope someday it will come out of the mouths of many Muslims that it was his love and compassion for the true word of God contained in the Koran that moved them to study the Catholic Church, and by that scandal that many call it, is what caused them to study and become part of the RCC.

We are taught throughout the bible that it is not by what we claim our faith it, it is how we live in out in how we are judged.

I am sure God judged him fairly and by his faith and love many seeds were planted that day and grew until the Power of the Holy Sprit led them all the way to the CC.

It is so true that how we treat others and how we show them respect, is how we can gain respect from them. He again is a credit to our faith.

 

[couponfit]

I agree with LG.

I think prayer should be focused on the ultimate goal of getting them to the Catholic Church. So in this sense, it can’t be regular prayer sessions with the actual intention of worshiping. That is what I meant to say. The goal must be clear.

I see, so you are suggesting that prayer for the purpose of worshipping Allah is wrong? No disagreement from me on that point if you are. So what do you imagine is interfaith prayer, when do you think it occurs. Obviously priests and bishops might attend an interfaith dinner to discuss a common social issue but that’s not something I as a lay person would attend as I am not in that role.

But what is exactly interfaith prayer in your mind? Maybe we have different ideas of what we view as interfaith prayer in the first place.

I would view bowing heads in silence in a room with multi-faiths especially if there is a single intention (such as peace or a ill child) as interfaith prayer. I would see interfaith prayer occurring frequently with someones death, such at a memorial candlelight vigil as interfaith.

If would not as a catholic go up to a muslim and ask them to pray for my soul. But if I am part of a pro life gathering and muslims occur, I can see bowing heads together in a moment of private prayer on the issue. So maybe it’s how we need to describe what we envision as interfaith prayer.

 

[couponfit]

It is sad that many do not know the true heart of JPll. And find it in their own hearts to judge him.

I do not know of ONE Pope who has brought so many people together with his love for our dear Lord and his truth.

I wonder how many Muslims were touched by the power of the Holy Sprit that day, and because of that gesture were led to see the True God in the Trinity of the Catholic Church.

The Pope lived his life for our dear Lord and was touched by him by his power of the Holy Spirit when he became a Priest by the laying of hands of Holy Orders.

I am sure that God understands that he kissed the Koran, not for the untruth that it contained, but for the God Truth that it contained. The truth about the One God, the truth about his Blessed Mother.

I am sure it was his love for the Blessed Mother and their love for the Blessed Mother that planted many seeds of truth that day. I thank him for that, and it only makes him more of a Saint in my eyes.

People say he was over-reacting, etc, But I say he was moved by the Spirit of God for the Love of all God’s People. Showing them as he has stated many times, his love and admiration he had for them for the truth that they do have.

The Pope answers to no one but God, nor should he. I for one, Love him more then words can say, and I hope someday it will come out of the mouths of many Muslims that it was his love and compassion for the true word of God contained in the Koran that moved them to study the Catholic Church, and by that scandal that many call it, is what caused them to study and become part of the RCC.

We are taught throughout the bible that it is not by what we claim our faith it, it is how we live in out in how we are judged.

I am sure God judged him fairly and by his faith and love many seeds were planted that day and grew until the Power of the Holy Sprit led them all the way to the CC.

It is so true that how we treat others and how we show them respect, is how we can gain respect from them. He again is a credit to our faith.

Wow, that is remarkably beautiful way of seeing Pope JP II. Well said!

 

[couponfit]

Thank you couponfit. On May 14, 1999, I was a Latin Catholic (38 years and counting). My parents and much of my extended family remain Latin Catholic.

That was the day that Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran. I was scandalized. Many were scandalized. Deacons, priests, bishops, and monks were scandalized. Shortly thereafter…my journey took me East…first to the Byzantine Catholic Church…and finally to Holy Orthodoxy. The Pope’s over-reaching gesture of ecumenism was not the reason that I sojourned Eastward (there were many reasons). But I think there were many faithful Catholics who were scandalized by this gesture…and it saddens me to this day.

Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on us.

One thing about interfaith prayer, is that it’s really best to have perspective from within the interfaith event. Those who are looking in from the outside really do not have a clear view. You think you felt scandal! The clerics involved were berated with threats by other muslims for what they did with catholics. And the muslims who are involved are very much like the catholics who are involved: they don’t really understand the misconceptions and interpretations of why others who aren’t even knowledgable of all the specifics feel the need to comment.

 

[couponfit]

I agree with LG.

Hmmm, ok so I have to ask on this what part of Nostra Aetate do you have concerns?

 

[Mickey]

I am sure that God understands that he kissed the Koran, not for the untruth that it contained, but for the God Truth that it contained.

What God truth? The Koran denies the divinity of Jesus Christ…the Son of the living God. There is no God truth in the Koran!!!

One thing about interfaith prayer, is that it’s really best to have perspective from within the interfaith event. Those who are looking in from the outside really do not have a clear view. You think you felt scandal!

You bet. And I was not alone. Here is a little perspective for you:

Every Sunday morning at the Orthros service, (before Divine Liturgy), after the reading of the Gospel, everyone gets in a line (sort of like preparing to receive Holy Communion) and approaches the priest who is holding the gold and silver encased Gospel book. When it is our turn….we venerate the Gospel of Christ by kissing the Holy Book and then kissing the priest’s right hand (because he administers the Sacraments and blesses us). Here in the East, we venerate the Gospels and the Holy Icons continuously. We do this with a** kiss** and a bow (or prostration). So when we see the bishop of Rome kissing the Koran (an ancient Christian gesture of veneration), it is highly scandalous.

The clerics involved were berated with threats by other muslims for what they did with catholics.

That is irrelevant.

 

[Mostyn]

My problem with interfaith prayers is this:
Our Lord Jesus said, No one can come to the father except through Me.
Only through Christ , we can reach our father in heaven.

So can this also mean, if no one believes in Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, their prayers will not be heard?

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Two simple questions.
1 Who do you consider to be the “Author” of the Bible?

God is the “principal author,” as Catholic teaching says. Of course, each part of it has human authors as well who cooperated with the divine inspiration they were receiving.

2 Who do you consider to be the “Author” of the Qur’an?

I don’t know… definitely not God. Muhammad, probably. Maybe even an evil angel posing as Gabriel… I’m not sure, and I don’t think we can know. But it’s definitely not Scripture, even if there are some good things in it.

Why do you ask?

Somwewhat uncharitable, un-Christian and presumptuous. IMO

Not at all. My observation says nothing about the integrity or intentions of those who disagree with me in this debate; it speaks simply and solely of the philosophical ramifications and underpinnings of their position. To point those out is not uncharitable in the least, nor is it presumptuous, since - as I said - it has nothing to do with your intention or integrity.

Somwewhat uncharitable and un-Christian IMO

Uncharitable to whom? Rinnie? Mickey? And for what reason?

Monotheistic does not just mean that you only worship one God, but that you ascribe to God qualities such that there could only possibly be one of Him.

You can have a false (or largely false–nothing can ever manage to be completely false) religion based on the true God. This is the point most people are overlooking or denying in this debate.

I’m interested in how Christians have traditionally defined it. And they have traditionally said that any monotheist is speaking of the true God.

That does not mean that all the things monotheists believe about God are true, or that their way of worshiping God is pleasing to God.

Edwin, your replies here are a beacon of precision and reason. Thank you for explaining this so clearly.

Boleyn, what Edwin just said is the reason I claimed what I did about polytheism. “Is it a separate God?” is a meaningless question, because there is only one God, and despite their other errors, Muslims acknowledge that there is only one God.

What prevents us from saying that they are wrong about what God has commanded?

I would really love an answer to this question from them, too. Even an acknowledgement of the question would be progress at this point.

It’s the “god” that they follow, per their book, that prescribed these things.

God did not prescribe such immoral things.

We know that they worship a non-Triune god.

There is no such thing as a non-Triune god… the only Real God is Triune.

Because your Church teaches that you are not held to believe everything the pope writes which is not ex-cathedra…or am I mistaken? Are you supposed to believe everything the pope writes…by pain of mortal sin?

This teaching doesn’t come from a pope. It comes from a council… the Second Vatican Council. And teachings of councils, while not necessarily infallible in every part, are generally supposed to be definitively held by the faithful.

I do not think that the millions of Christian martyrs who were murdered by the muslims would have thought there was a common bond…with a belief system that denies Christ. They happily went to their deaths before they would admit such a thing.

That the Muslims who martyred them are butchers whose violence is abhorrent to the One True God is not in dispute.

For me, to argue about whether the person answering the prayers of Muslims is the same God as Christianity is nonsensical. The answer is an obvious yes since there is no other God to answer anyway. Same applies for the Hindu who prays. The God that answers is the God of Christianity.

I think what you’ve just said is quite sensible. I have only one disagreement:

Hindus and Muslims are not in the same category. On a philosophical level of transcendent monotheism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have basically the same concept of God. Hinduism, however, does not. It is pantheistic (or perhaps panentheistic in some estimations), and Brahman is simply not the same idea of “God” as the God of Abraham.

But for me to then claim that the Hindu or the Muslim is worshiping the same God is problematic.

Why?

If someone believes there is only one God, and believes that God to be eternal, transcendent, necessary, etc… then how can it be that they’re worshiping anyone or anything else but God?

Whatever other errors they believe about God, however great, then constitute errors about God.

 

[couponfit]

That is irrelevant.

It’s not to the clerics.

 

[Busy_bee]

I would have put a specific statement I read from this thread here, but I don’t know how to.

Anyway, I think that first we need to establish what praying with muslims means. I could pray with them by praying about the same thing or intention, I could also pray with them by going into their place of worship and praying as a christian (through Christ) at the same time as they are praying, or by listening to what they are saying and communicate that to God (prayer is conversation with God), or I could pray in arabic to Allah with them.

Of all these possibilities, the latter one is the definitely wrong one, it seems to me. Why? I’d say, who is Allah? The one supreme God who has no son, and whose great prophet was mohammed. If I don’t agree with this, then it means that when I call upon God, I cannot be referring to Allah because God cannot contradict himself. He can’t have and not have a son at the same time.:tsktsk:

It is for this reason that I don’t think the ecumenism and religious tolerance Blessed JPII tried to show was of the nature of worshipping their God. No! He could have prayed with them in any of the other above ways and it still will not be a denial of his faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Busy_bee]

I would have put a specific statement I read from this thread here, but I don’t know how to.

Anyway, I think that first we need to establish what praying with muslims means. I could pray with them by praying about the same thing or intention, I could also pray with them by going into their place of worship and praying as a christian (through Christ) at the same time as they are praying, or by listening to what they are saying and communicate that to God (prayer is conversation with God), or I could pray in arabic to Allah with them.

Of all these possibilities, the latter one is the definitely wrong one, it seems to me. Why? I’d say, who is Allah? The one supreme God who has no son, and whose great prophet was mohammed. If I don’t agree with this, then it means that when I call upon God, I cannot be referring to Allah because God cannot contradict himself. He can’t have and not have a son at the same time.:tsktsk:

It is for this reason that I don’t think the ecumenism and religious tolerance Blessed JPII tried to show was of the nature of worshipping their God. No! He could have prayed with them in any of the other above ways and it still will not be a denial of his faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.“It is not licit to do evil that good may come out of it.” Rom 3:8 ]

 

[Mickey]

despite their other errors, Muslims acknowledge that there is only one God.

There is one God…no doubt. That God is true. That God is Triune. That God is the God of Abraham. The muslims do not worship that God. So they are not worshipping the one, true, Triune, God…the God of Abraham.

There is no such thing as a non-Triune god… the only Real God is Triune.

Exactly! Now you are understanding!

This teaching doesn’t come from a pope. It comes from a council… the Second Vatican Council. And teachings of councils, while not necessarily infallible in every part, are generally supposed to be definitively held by the faithful.

It was a pastoral council for Catholics…much of it was mis-interpreted. Can you show me where the muslim statement from this council is binding on you?

That the Muslims who martyred them are butchers whose violence is abhorrent to the One True God is not in dispute.

They were martyred because they wanted nothing to do with the false god of the muslims. And we pray to those martyrs for intercession.

 

[Mickey]

It’s not to the clerics.

It has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Mickey]

It is for this reason that I don’t think the ecumenism and religious tolerance Blessed JPII tried to show was of the nature of worshipping their God. No! He could have prayed with them in any of the other above ways and it still will not be a denial of his faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

And yet…his statements and actions caused much confusion and scandal amongst the faithful.

 

[jam070406]

God did not prescribe such immoral things

Exactly! Because Muslims don’t know the one true God.
As the document Dominus Iesus, further clarifying Lumen Gentium & Nostra Aetate, points out, ones MUST have Faith in the Trinity to have communion with the one true God. It requires the gift to believe and grace from God.
The document clarifies the difference between Faith and merely believing. It is impossible to know the one true God without the gift of Faith and conversion. Muslims do not have Faith. They deny the Trinity therefore they do not know the one true God. They have belief…in a monotheistic false god.

 

[jam070406]

I believe as many Catholic’s believe it will be the intercession of the Blessed Mother that will bring them to her Son.

The Koran has passages concerning the Blessed Virgin, they believe in the Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth.

It is our hope that those who show her much respect will someday accept her Divine Son as the True God.

The Blessed Mother has brought many to the faith by her love and complete trust in our our Lord.

Besides them accepting God as the Creator of heaven and Earth, they also accept Mary as the Mother of Jesus Christ. It is hopeful that she can somehow help to bring them to the fullness of our faith. IT is what we have in common that we can come together in Christ. And who better to help bring them to the fullness of our faith, then by the prayers of the Blessed Mother.

Muslims don’t have Faith. In order to be brought to the fullness of Faith they first need the gift of Faith. One area holding them back, as I’ve seen stated in a Catholic article, is the lack of Holiness they see in Western Christians. The only way they will come to believe is when Catholics strive for perfection and spread the Gospel to them by word and deed. It is our job. The miracle by Mary will be when Catholics conform themselves to the will of God and be the example, living Gospel, for Muslims.

 

[rinnie]

I do not think that the millions of Christian martyrs who were murdered by the muslims would have thought there was a common bond…with a belief system that denies Christ. They happily went to their deaths before they would admit such a thing.
I thought the protestants were your separated brethren…are the muslims also your separated brethren?

You cannot blame every Muslim for the sins of the bad ones. There are many Muslims who are good caring people.

Everyone who is not a part of the CC is a separated brother or sister. God loves us all. And he wants us all to become together in his name.