Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[rinnie]

Muslims don’t have Faith. In order to be brought to the fullness of Faith they first need the gift of Faith. One area holding them back, as I’ve seen stated in a Catholic article, is the lack of Holiness they see in Western Christians. The only way they will come to believe is when Catholics strive for perfection and spread the Gospel to them by word and deed. It is our job. The miracle by Mary will be when Catholics conform themselves to the will of God and be the example, living Gospel, for Muslims.

Really? I was always taught that it is by the Grace of God that we are given faith, and by Grace the gift to live out that Faith.

I was always taught that all good things come from God:shrug:

I will never questioned anyones faith, I do not have the ability to see into anothers heart. I would never acuse anyone of not having faith. That is a very uncharitable thing to say.

 

[jam070406]

Really? I was always taught that it is by the Grace of God that we are given faith, and by Grace the gift to live out that Faith.

I was always taught that all good things come from God:shrug:

I will never questioned anyones faith, I do not have the ability to see into anothers heart. I would never acuse anyone of not having faith. That is a very uncharitable thing to say.

You’re saying the Church is uncharitable?

Of course every good thing comes from God.
And God can work in mysterious to lead people to Truth.
But Faith is a different matter.

 

[rinnie]

Exactly! Because Muslims don’t know the one true God.
As the document Dominus Iesus, further clarifying Lumen Gentium & Nostra Aetate, points out, ones MUST have Faith in the Trinity to have communion with the one true God. It requires the gift to believe and grace from God.
The document clarifies the difference between Faith and merely believing. It is impossible to know the one true God without the gift of Faith and conversion. Muslims do not have Faith. They deny the Trinity therefore they do not know the one true God. They have belief…in a monotheistic false god.

I have asked numerous times of many to show a valid Church teaching to contradict the teaching of the RCC that they do indeed believe in the One True God.

While many have never had the honor to be taught the true understanding of the Trinity, I would never accuse of anyone who prays to the God of Abraham My God as not having faith.

Also there is something you continue to say that I do not understand, maybe you could clarity. How can they have a belief in the One God, the God of Abraham and it be a false god. Because they believe in ONE GOD, it makes their God false? This makes no sense to me.

There are onlly 3 Religions that believe in only ONE TRUE GOD. It is the Christians, the Jews and the Muslims. All other religions believe in plural gods.

 

[Mickey]

You cannot blame every Muslim for the sins of the bad ones.

We are not talking about sinners. Everyone is a sinner. We are talking about the fact that the muslim faith does not recognize the one true God of Abraham…the Triune God…and the fact that it is not edifying to participate in common prayer with them.

 

[rinnie]

You’re saying the Church is uncharitable?

Of course every good thing comes from God.
And God can work in mysterious to lead people to Truth.
But Faith is a different matter.

Where did you get that from? Where has the Church every tried to read the hearts and minds of People? Are you trying to say the Church said this?

I have never heard the CC every judge another Mans heart or faith. IT goes against the word of God.

 

[Mickey]

How can they have a belief in the One God, the God of Abraham and it be a false god.

Because the God of Abraham is the Triune God…and they do not believe in the Triune God…therefore they do not believe in the God of Abraham. How many times do you need to be told?

 

[jam070406]

I have asked numerous times of many to show a valid Church teaching to contradict the teaching of the RCC that they do indeed believe in the One True God.

While many have never had the honor to be taught the true understanding of the Trinity, I would never accuse of anyone who prays to the God of Abraham My God as not having faith.

Also there is something you continue to say that I do not understand, maybe you could clarity. How can they have a belief in the One God, the God of Abraham and it be a false god. Because they believe in ONE GOD, it makes their God false? This makes no sense to me.

There are onlly 3 Religions that believe in only ONE TRUE GOD. It is the Christians, the Jews and the Muslims. All other religions believe in plural gods.

I gave you the document!

Faith is a gift from God that results in belief of the Trinity.
Muslims do not profess the Faith of Abraham, else they would Christian. Part of the body of Christ. They reject the Trinity, therefore do not have Faith.
There is a difference between Faith in God and belief in a god.

 

[jam070406]

Where did you get that from? Where has the Church every tried to read the hearts and minds of People? Are you trying to say the Church said this?

I have never heard the CC every judge another Mans heart or faith. IT goes against the word of God.

Post #456

 

[rinnie]

We are not talking about sinners. Everyone is a sinner. We are talking about the fact that the muslim faith does not recognize the one true God of Abraham…the Triune God…and the fact that it is not edifying to participate in common prayer with them.

Mickey why do we have to go around and around on this, That is your opinion, and as I stated the RCC disagrees with you on both accounts.

The teaching of the Church states that the Muslims believe the God of Abraham as the One True God, but do Not see the fullness of Christ in the Trinity.

That will come when they have the Grace from God to see the fullness of the truth. And that time will come when it is given to them by God when he feels they can accept it.

It is in God’ time not ours. It will be the Holy Spirit that will lead them to the Divinity of Christ. The word of God teaches us God will never give you more then you can handle.

Just like the Jews have been comming to Christ in record numbers the Muslims are sure to follow.

Last night something came to my mind.

I believe around 1978 JPll became Pope. Do you remember how it was his dream to bring the Jews back to Christ? Do you remember how much time he spent with them, and how he apologized for all mankind for the way they were treated.

Check this out, Before 1967 there were only a few thousand Messianic Jews in the U.S. and at most 4 or 5 Messianic Jewish synagogues.

By the Mid 70’s over 50,000. Since Pope JPll by 1993 this number had grown to 160,000.

Since then the records are blowing off the charts. Jewish converts in Israel are continuing to grow in record numbers.

Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And preach as you go saying The kingdom of heaven is at hand. When they persecute you in one town flee to the next for truly I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of Man comes.

We are all created by God for a purpose.

 

[rinnie]

And yet…his statements and actions caused much confusion and scandal amongst the faithful.

Why? Where did he ever speak false in the Name of the Lord. What statements do you feel that he made turned people against God and his Church?

Because the Pope has no power over anyone. If anyone left the Church it was on their own free will.

 

[jam070406]

Mickey why do we have to go around and around on this, That is your opinion, and as I stated the RCC disagrees with you on both accounts.

The teaching of the Church states that the Muslims believe the God of Abraham as the One True God, but do Not see the fullness of Christ in the Trinity.

That will come when they have the Grace from God to see the fullness of the truth. And that time will come when it is given to them by God when he feels they can accept it.

It is in God’ time not ours. It will be the Holy Spirit that will lead them to the Divinity of Christ. The word of God teaches us God will never give you more then you can handle.

Just like the Jews have been comming to Christ in record numbers the Muslims are sure to follow.

Last night something came to my mind.

I believe around 1978 JPll became Pope. Do you remember how it was his dream to bring the Jews back to Christ? Do you remember how much time he spent with them, and how he apologized for all mankind for the way they were treated.

Check this out, Before 1967 there were only a few thousand Messianic Jews in the U.S. and at most 4 or 5 Messianic Jewish synagogues.

By the Mid 70’s over 50,000. Since Pope JPll by 1993 this number had grown to 160,000.

Since then the records are blowing off the charts. Jewish converts in Israel are continuing to grow in record numbers.

Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And preach as you go saying The kingdom of heaven is at hand. When they persecute you in one town flee to the next for truly I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of Man comes.

We are all created by God for a purpose.

This is not true.
The Church teaches that Muslims claim to have the Faith of Abraham. They do not, otherwise it would result in belief of the Trinity.
Those that do good, like all humans, follow the law written on their hearts.
The Church affirms in Dominus Iesus that those that do not have Faith but claim to follow God are only following the dictates of their religion. That is why some Muslims kill in the name of God, because their religion, not God, says it is ok.
Again, those that profess the Trinity hold the Faith of Abraham.
Those Muslims that have not heard the Gospel but then hear and believe, accept the gift, will worship the one true God.
The entirety of Catholic Faith and Teaching must be taken into account.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey why do we have to go around and around on this

Why indeed?

That is your opinion,

No. It is truth…

and as I stated the RCC disagrees with you on both accounts.

But Sacred Scripture does not disagree with me.

The teaching of the Church states that the Muslims believe the God of Abraham as the One True God, but do Not see the fullness of Christ in the Trinity.

Sacred Scripture says they do not even have the Father.

It will be the Holy Spirit that will lead them to the Divinity of Christ.

Pray** for** them.

the Muslims are sure to follow.

One can be hopeful.

Since then the records are blowing off the charts. Jewish converts in Israel are continuing to grow in record numbers.

Where do you get your stats?

Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And preach as you go saying The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

I personally know someone who converted from Judaism to Holy Orthdoxy…I rejoiced. This thread has nothing to do with our desire to pray for the conversion of non-believers in Christ. But it is not edifying to pray with them in common prayer when they knowingly and consiously deny Christ.

 

[Mickey]

Again, those that profess the Trinity hold the Faith of Abraham.

Yes.

 

[Mickey]

What statements do you feel that he made turned people against God and his Church?

I do not know if he turned people away from God and the Church…that is an odd statement to make. But if he said that muslims worship the one true God…the God of Abraham…he is mistaken…and it caused much scandal…especially when he venerated the Koran with a kiss.

Because the Pope has no power over anyone.

Correct.

 

[rinnie]

I do not know if he turned people away from God and the Church…that is an odd statement to make. But if he said that muslims worship the one true God…the God of Abraham…he is mistaken…and it caused much scandal…especially when he venerated the Koran with a kiss.
Correct.

Why would it cause such scandal. Because the Koran is the most precious thing in the world to them, and they gave it to him as a gift, and he was touched deeply in his heart with such a thing?

The Pope said Islam is not a Religion of Redemption. Jesus is mentioned but redemption is completely absent.

The Theology and also the anthropology of Islam is Very Distant from Christianity.

But he also said that the religiosly of Muslims deserve Respect.

He said it is impossible to not admire their fidelity to prayer. How they fall to their knees and pray remain a model for all who invoke the true God.

He especially expressed this to us Christians, who find little or no time to pray.

The visit and the impact that he had on the young when he spoke about the One True God was amazing. Those young were so open to his words and took in every word he said. That is a true miracle of our faith.

Could you only imagine if they were the ones who had the Pope as their teacher, Could you only imagine what this world would have been like. As I stated earlier in time I am sure we will hear about the impact that he made on their lives. And will see how many eyes he opened.

I for one, want a Muslim to associate me with the Pope. I want to be like him, while I can disagree with just about every aspect of their teachings, I can still do it with dignity and respect. And maybe someday it is I, who can by the Power of the Holy Spirit plant the see of Christ in them, the way of dear Pope did.

 

[rinnie]

Why indeed?
No. It is truth…
But Sacred Scripture does not disagree with me.
Sacred Scripture says they do not even have the Father.
Pray** for** them.
One can be hopeful.
Where do you get your stats?
I personally know someone who converted from Judaism to Holy Orthdoxy…I rejoiced. This thread has nothing to do with our desire to pray for the conversion of non-believers in Christ. But it is not edifying to pray with them in common prayer when they knowingly and consiously deny Christ.

Mickey I have to go to work for a few hours. but I will come back and show you the sources for the numbers I quoted.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey I have to go to work for a few hours. but I will come back and show you the sources for the numbers I quoted.

That’s okay rinnie. I do not need the source. It really does not apply to our dialogue. Of course we are to pray for the conversion of non-believers.

 

[Mickey]

He said it is impossible to not admire their fidelity to prayer. How they fall to their knees and pray remain a model for all who invoke the true God.

They do not “invoke the true God.”

 

[jam070406]

They do not “invoke the true God.”

It’d been better if he professed Jesus as Lord and the Trinity as the one true God.

 

[passer_by]

I see, so you are suggesting that prayer for the purpose of worshipping Allah is wrong? No disagreement from me on that point if you are. So what do you imagine is interfaith prayer, when do you think it occurs. Obviously priests and bishops might attend an interfaith dinner to discuss a common social issue but that’s not something I as a lay person would attend as I am not in that role.

But what is exactly interfaith prayer in your mind? Maybe we have different ideas of what we view as interfaith prayer in the first place.

I would view bowing heads in silence in a room with multi-faiths especially if there is a single intention (such as peace or a ill child) as interfaith prayer. I would see interfaith prayer occurring frequently with someones death, such at a memorial candlelight vigil as interfaith.

If would not as a catholic go up to a muslim and ask them to pray for my soul. But if I am part of a pro life gathering and muslims occur, I can see bowing heads together in a moment of private prayer on the issue. So maybe it’s how we need to describe what we envision as interfaith prayer.

I think inter-faith prayer should always be a stepping stone for dialogue. By inter-faith prayer, I mean participation in services of other faiths.

But in scenarios like a pro-life march or funeral in which there is a moment of silence and each prays in their own way during that time, I don’t consider it inter-faith prayer. That would just be people observing their respective faith in silence in my view.

Or attending a marriage ceremony of a different faith for an example is not what I consider inter-faith prayer. In these ceremonies, we do not participate but just stand aside and observe, and pray for the couple to God.

A scenario like attending a Protestant prayer service is what I would consider inter-faith prayer. Or in the case of Muslims, getting together and praying to God is what I would consider inter-faith prayer. Those would all be with the focus of starting dialogue. Hence why I think regularly holding such sessions is problematic.

Moreover, in the Muslim case, I am not sure we can adopt their prayer as the common prayer unless it is very specifically analyzed for content. For an example, a prayer of a Muslim which includes Muhammed, or the Koran in its prayer is probably not something we can use for this common prayer. On the other hand, since Muslims do acknowledge Christianity as at least an incomplete religion from God, the common prayer that should be used is probably something like the Our Father or something built from scratch which is addressed to God without specific reference to the Bible or Koran or Muhammad. But it is possible that Muslims have such forms of prayers like Our Father which do not have problematic content and we can certainly use these in our ecumenical prayer sessions. Reading passages of the Koran should also be out of the question in these inter-faith prayer sessions.

I also believe that there is a bit of mistake in holding such inter-faith prayer sessions with the involvement of the entire parishes because usually the parishioners (at least most of them) do not realize the motive behind such an event as dialogue and neither are they told about it. When the event is regular in its occurrence, it is quiet easy for someone to think of the act as acknowledgement that the other person’s religion is completely valid or that we are already in a state of unity. This is something that happens to not just the Catholic who participate at such events but to even those on the other side. Thus it can lead to a sense of indifferentism.

But yes, that is a very condensed version of my thoughts and stances on inter-faith prayer. I hope I answered your question though.