Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[jam070406]

That’s okay rinnie. I do not need the source. It really does not apply to our dialogue. Of course we are to pray for the conversion of non-believers.

Indeed they need it. When Pope Benedict stated violence was contrary to the nature of God and Muslims were outraged, there were Muslims pleading to take it easy on the Pope because the Church changed their Teaching saying Muslims go to Heaven and don’t need to convert. Based on the VII docs. That’s what happens when they are not read in light of Tradition.

theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/benedicts_blunder_time_for_muslims_to_emphasize_the_positive/

 

[Mickey]

the common prayer that should be used is probably something like the Our Father or something built from scratch which is addressed to God

It is my understanding that it is forbidden for muslims to ascribe the word “father” to their deity.

 

[boleyn2010]

QUOTE
Not at all. My observation says nothing about the integrity or intentions of those who disagree with me in this debate; it speaks simply and solely of the philosophical ramifications and underpinnings of their position. To point those out is not uncharitable in the least, nor is it presumptuous, since - as I said - it has nothing to do with your intention or integrity.
To accuse those, who correctly understand that there is but One True God and acknowledge that there are others who incorrectly think that there is a different god to the One True God, of “holding an intellectually primitive perspective… etc.” is in my view, disparaging. And who are you to speak of the “philosophical ramifications and underpinning of their position” when it is patently obvious you neither comprehend their position or appear to wish to.

QUOTE*
Uncharitable to whom? Rinnie? Mickey? And for what reason? *
I see no mention of Rinnie in the post highlighted. Therefore it must be Mickey…
Your statement about papal authority and Catholic teaching being “wasted” (my word) on Mickey, on the basis that he is not a Roman Catholic, and indeed consistent in rejecting what the pope says, is in my view both uncharitable and to a degree derogatory. Mickey is indeed consistent in saying he does not agree with the notion that Muslims worship the One True God, and is entitled to express that belief without being castigated. I too dispute this assertion.

QUOTE*
Boleyn, what Edwin just said is the reason I claimed what I did about polytheism. “Is it a separate God?” is a meaningless question, because there is only one God, and despite their other errors, Muslims acknowledge that there is only one God*
Yes I agree they do acknowledge one god, Allah as revealed in their holy book The Koran. And I agree, there is no separate God. But polytheism does not enter into the debate. We (Christians) do not acknowledge the possibility of another God. However that is not to say that others may hold that the god they present to us is the one True God and even give their god the name “the God of Abraham”.
But however much they ascribe a name to something it does not make it what it plainly is not…

QUOTE
I don’t know… definitely not God. Muhammad, probably. Maybe even an evil angel posing as Gabriel… I’m not sure, and I don’t think we can know. But it’s definitely not Scripture, even if there are some good things in it.

*Why do you ask? *
In simple terms Muslims draw their tradition, doctrine, faith and belief from the revelations contained within the Koran, revelations, which you acknowledge do not come from God, that come from Allah via Gabriel(?) and Mohammed and claim further that Allah is the one true God.
If, as you say, the Koran did not come from God, how can you justify saying that Muslims worship the One True God when they worship Allah as their one true god and label him the “God of Abraham”

As regards the notion that this teaching of the Church is binding on all I would point out that history proves that popes have erred in the past and that some errors stood for centuries before being corrected.

Peace be with you
Francis

 

[rinnie]

Okay Mickey, I am going to try ONE last time to show you what I see. Please pray on this and give it time before you answer my question.

The Muslim God proclaims to pray to the God of Abraham. Now before you go say a word hear me out.

If I say to you Mickey I am going to pray only to Jesus not God or not the Holy Spirit you are going to say that is IMPOSSIBLE!! And I would agree.

They pray to the ONE GOD the creator of heaven and earth the God of Abraham.

Now bear with me. If I pray to God the Father the Father of Abraham but reject the Holy Trinity how in the world does that make the God of Abraham a false God.

You are saying they are not praying to the God of Abraham because they deny Christ in the Trinity.

Now how can their ignorance of the Trinity, change that the God of Abraham is indeed the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Do you understand the insanity of what you are saying. You are saying that because they pray to the GOd of Abraham and do not accept him as the Son and Holy Spirit the God of Abraham becomes a false God. DO you see how that makes no sense at all.

The truth to say is they proclaim the God of Abraham but are blind to the true fact that the God of Abraham is indeed the 3 persons in ONE GOD.

That is like me saying because you do not accept the teachings of the Pope you are not following the true God. That is nuts.

So the truth of the matter is either the God of Abraham is the true God, or he is a false god. IF the GOd of Abraham is the true GOd then they are praying to the true God.

BUt what they do not realize is as I stated earlier it is IMPOSSIBLE to pray to the ONE TRUE GOD of Abraham WITHOUT praying to the Trinity.

Because they deny the Trinity does not make it so. The GOd of Abraham is either our GOd and the ONE TRUE GOD, or the GOD of Abraham is not. Because they cannot see GOd in the 3 persons does not change the fact that its the truth.

So my point it is impossible to pray to the GOD of ABRAHAM without praying to the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

What you are saying that if they cannot see it, it is not so. I am saying even though they cannot see it IT IS SO.

Them not seeing Christ in God the Father does not make God the Father become a false god then.

Do you see at all what I am saying.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to pray to the God of Abraham and make the GOd of Abraham a false God because of the inability of someone to see that the God of Abraham is indeed the F, S, and H.S.

So if they claim that the Trinity is not the GOd of Abraham and we say it is, but we are both praying to the God of Abraham it does not make him a false God. IT makes their teaching a false teaching, and their leader a false prophet. But it does not make God a false God.

What you keep saying is because Mohamad was a false prophet and led them away from the true gospel that it made the God of Abraham a false God.

The Quran was not the teaching of the God of Abraham, it was the teaching of a false prophet who claimed he had a vison from God. But he did not. Just because he claims he had a vison from the God of Abraham does not make it true. Nor does it make the God of Abraham a false God, simply because Mohamad was a false teacher.

 

[passer_by]

It is my understanding that it is forbidden for muslims to ascribe the word “father” to their deity.

I think you might be right. I have heard that as well. So the prayers said during these common meetings will have to very basic. I think that shows more why regular prayers with Muslims will not be great because even the prayers lack the fullness.

So the only reason for such prayer should always be focused on dialog to bring them back to the Church.

 

[passer_by]

Okay Mickey, I am going to try ONE last time to show you what I see. Please pray on this and give it time before you answer my question.

The Muslim God proclaims to pray to the God of Abraham. Now before you go say a word hear me out.

If I say to you Mickey I am going to pray only to Jesus not God or not the Holy Spirit you are going to say that is IMPOSSIBLE!! And I would agree.

Here lies the error Rinnie. You said “The Muslim proclaims”. But then you somehow made the jump to concluding that because they proclaim, they actually do.

The Muslim person also proclaims to pray to the God of Abraham who revealed himself through the Koran. Such a God that revealed himself through the Koran does not exist.

Since you have not shown reasons or criterion for concluding that they actually DO proclaim/follow/worship the God of Abraham, I think the rest of your argument collapses.

 

[Mickey]

They pray to the ONE GOD the creator of heaven and earth the God of Abraham.

Absolutely not.

If I pray to God the Father the Father of Abraham but reject the Holy Trinity how in the world does that make the God of Abraham a false God.

Then you would be like the muslims and you would not be praying to the God of Abraham…the Triune God. Muslims don’t even refer to their deity as “Father.”

You are saying they are not praying to the God of Abraham because they deny Christ in the Trinity.

:clapping:

Do you understand the insanity of what you are saying.

I think the insanity has manifested itself in the idea you are trying to portray.

You are saying that because they pray to the GOd of Abraham…

No. I am saying that they do not pray to the God of Abraham.

So the truth of the matter is either the God of Abraham is the true God, or he is a false god.

The God of Abraham…the Triune God…is the true God…and the muslims to not worship Him.

IF the GOd of Abraham is the true GOd then they are praying to the true God.

No. They reject the Triune God.

Because they deny the Trinity does not make it so.

Huh???

What you are saying that if they cannot see it, it is not so.

I am saying that they knowingly and consciously reject the Triune God…therefore they are praying to a deity that is not the God of Abraham.

Do you see at all what I am saying.

No.

The Quran was not the teaching of the God of Abraham

And they follow the Koran…therefore they are not praying to the God of Abraham.

 

[rinnie]

Here lies the error Rinnie. You said “The Muslim proclaims”. But then you somehow made the jump to concluding that because they proclaim, they actually do.

The Muslim person also proclaims to pray to the God of Abraham who revealed himself through the Koran. Such a God that revealed himself through the Koran does not exist.

Since you have not shown reasons or criterion for concluding that they actually DO proclaim/follow/worship the God of Abraham, I think the rest of your argument collapses.

Well forgive me for using the word proclaim instead of PROFESS.

And you claim that you are a RC, but in turn you deny the fullness of the truth that the RC teaches.

CCC THe plan of salvation includes the Muslims who PROFESS to hold the faith of Abraham and together WITH US, (please read this part) and together with US they ADORE the one merciful God, mankinds judge on the last day.

I suppose you agree with Mickey that we can pick and choose what teaching in the RCC we want to agree with and ignore or disagree with the one we do not.

If you read the front of the CCC it says everything in the CCC has resulted whose unity and coherence are ASSURED. It was intrusted to a commision of 12 Cardinals and Bishops chaired by Cardinal Josheph Ratzinger.

Because you don’t see it that way it is not true then, So you feel you can overpower the Cardinals Bishops and Current Pope because you don’t see it the way the RCC teaches.

Well if the leaders of the RCC who have be given the promise from God to speak in his name, cannot sway you, there is no way I, who claim no Power of the Holy Spirit to teach in his name sure can’t.

 

[jam070406]

Well forgive me for using the word proclaim instead of PROFESS.

And you claim that you are a RC, but in turn you deny the fullness of the truth that the RC teaches.

CCC THe plan of salvation includes the Muslims who PROFESS to hold the faith of Abraham and together WITH US, (please read this part) and together with US they ADORE the one merciful God, mankinds judge on the last day.

I suppose you agree with Mickey that we can pick and choose what teaching in the RCC we want to agree with and ignore or disagree with the one we do not.

If you read the front of the CCC it says everything in the CCC has resulted whose unity and coherence are ASSURED. It was intrusted to a commision of 12 Cardinals and Bishops chaired by Cardinal Josheph Ratzinger.

Because you don’t see it that way it is not true then, So you feel you can overpower the Cardinals Bishops and Current Pope because you don’t see it the way the RCC teaches.

Well if the leaders of the RCC who have be given the promise from God to speak in his name, cannot sway you, there is no way I, who claim no Power of the Holy Spirit to teach in his name sure can’t.

Those Muslims that profess the Faith of Abraham, the Trinity, are no longer Muslim but Christian.

 

[rinnie]

Those Muslims that profess the Faith of Abraham, the Trinity, are no longer Muslim but Christian.

You got it!! Just because they are uable or unwilling whatever the case may be to accept the truth, the Truth does indeed remain the truth!!

You are exactly right, but even if they do not add the Trinity and only profess the faith of Abraham they are professing the Trinity.

The only way someone could deny this would be to say that the faith of Abraham does not profess the Trinity. This is the only possible way. And we know that the Faith of Abraham does NOT deny the Trinity.

Just another mystery of the Holy Spirit!!

 

[jam070406]

You got it!! Just because they are uable or unwilling whatever the case may be to accept the truth, the Truth does indeed remain the truth!!

Yes. The Truth is that Muslims do not worship the one true God. They deny the Trinity.
Those that convert and profess the Faith of Abraham do.

 

[jam070406]

You got it!! Just because they are uable or unwilling whatever the case may be to accept the truth, the Truth does indeed remain the truth!!

You are exactly right, but even if they do not add the Trinity and only profess the faith of Abraham they are professing the Trinity.

The only way someone could deny this would be to say that the faith of Abraham does not profess the Trinity. This is the only possible way. And we know that the Faith of Abraham does NOT deny the Trinity.

Just another mystery of the Holy Spirit!!

The Church does not teach that Muslims hold the Faith of Abraham.
It teaches that they make that claim. It is a false claim.
Those Muslims that hear the Gospel (plan of salvation) accept it and profess the Faith of Abraham adore the one true God along with us, AS FELLOW CHRISTIANS!

 

[rinnie]

The Church does not teach that Muslims hold the Faith of Abraham.
It teaches that they make that claim. It is a false claim.
Those Muslims that hear the Gospel (plan of salvation) accept it and profess the Faith of Abraham adore the one true God along with us, AS FELLOW CHRISTIANS!

I am sorry you are adding to the CCC. It says no such thing that the Muslims that hear the Gospel accept it and profess the faith of Abraham.

IT say the Muslims who ACKNOWLEDGE THE CREATOR in the first place among whom are the Muslims. (it says nothing about accepting the Trinity or accepting the Gospel) these profess to hold the faith of Abraham and TOGETHER WITH US, the adore the ONE merciful God, mankinds judge on the last day.

So if you accept the teaching of the RCC, then you have to agree that if we TOGETHER ADORE The ONE Merciful GOd, then we either are both praying to the One True GOd. or you are saying the RC also do not have the ONE MERCIFUL GOD.

You cannot have it both ways.

The exact words state TOGETHER WITH US THEY ADORE THE ONE MERCIFUL GOD. You either accept the teachings of the Church or you reject them. There is no other way.

There is ONLY ONE merciful God and we adore him together.

 

[Mickey]

The exact words state TOGETHER WITH US THEY ADORE THE ONE MERCIFUL GOD.

A gross error indeed.

 

[jam070406]

I am sorry you are adding to the CCC. It says no such thing that the Muslims that hear the Gospel accept it and profess the faith of Abraham.

IT say the Muslims who ACKNOWLEDGE THE CREATOR in the first place among whom are the Muslims. (it says nothing about accepting the Trinity or accepting the Gospel) these profess to hold the faith of Abraham and TOGETHER WITH US, the adore the ONE merciful God, mankinds judge on the last day.

So if you accept the teaching of the RCC, then you have to agree that if we TOGETHER ADORE The ONE Merciful GOd, then we either are both praying to the One True GOd. or you are saying the RC also do not have the ONE MERCIFUL GOD.

You cannot have it both ways.

The exact words state TOGETHER WITH US THEY ADORE THE ONE MERCIFUL GOD. You either accept the teachings of the Church or you reject them. There is no other way.

There is ONLY ONE merciful God and we adore him together.

The CCC is even more ambiguous then the original source document. If you go back and read it, it is dealing with those that have not heard the Gospel. The document Dominus Iesus also corrected this error of thinking. There is an entire context to it that you are tossing out the window.

 

[rinnie]

A gross error indeed.

Sorry MIckey it is the CCC the teachings of the RCC. If you pass judgement on them, you pass judgement on me, and the Whole Roman Catholic Church.

And also if you feel that this is a gross error, you must also feel that way about the Creed.

I believe in ONE GOD the Father Almighty the Creator of Heaven and Earth. There is only ONE.

THey acknowledge the creator also. There is only ONE CREATOR and we are all in complete acknowledgement of the same CREATOR!

 

[rinnie]

The CCC is even more ambiguous then the original source document. If you go back and read it, it is dealing with those that have not heard the Gospel. The document Dominus Iesus also corrected this error of thinking. There is an entire context to it that you are tossing out the window.

I am not going to argue with you. You either accept the original source or you reject it. It is really as simple as that.

 

[jam070406]

Sorry MIckey it is the CCC the teachings of the RCC. If you pass judgement on them, you pass judgement on me, and the Whole Roman Catholic Church.

And also if you feel that this is a gross error, you must also feel that way about the Creed.

I believe in ONE GOD the Father Almighty the Creator of Heaven and Earth. There is only ONE.

THey acknowledge the creator also. There is only ONE CREATOR and we are all in complete acknowledgement of the same CREATOR!

No. The Creator is the Holy Trinity, which includes Jesus Christ.
It does not say ALL Muslims. It says those that acknowledge the Creator and profess the Faith of Abraham. Those that adore the one true God MUST be those that profess the Trinity, as Dominus Iesus states. Those that acknowledge the Creator and profess the Faith of Abraham have received the gift of the Gospel. Naturally those that accept the Trinity will adore the one true God.

 

[Mickey]

If you pass judgement on them, you pass judgement on me, and the Whole Roman Catholic Church.

Don’t be silly. Pointing out an error is not passing judgement.

And also if you feel that this is a gross error, you must also feel that way about the Creed.

Nonsense.

There is only ONE.

And that one holy true God is the Triune God and since the muslims do not worship the one holy true Triune God…they do not worship the same God as the Christians.

THey acknowledge the creator also.

They do not acknowledge the same God as the Christians.

 

[Mickey]

It is really as simple as that.

No Rinnie…it’s as simple as this.

Since you are having monumental difficulty understanding this….let me make it really really really simple for you.

Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!

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1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)– Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.