Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[rinnie]

The current Pope issued Dominus Iesus and says your relativistic approach is in error.

And no disrespect but the Current Pope who you claim I am in error with is who chaired the CCC.

So are you saying he is in total conflict with the CCC which he was entrusted with the commision of the CCC?

This makes no sense to me at all. From what I have read of the Domimus lesus it is in direct line with the CCC!

 

[jam070406]

And no disrespect but the Current Pope who you claim I am in error with is who chaired the CCC.

So are you saying he is in total conflict with the CCC which he was entrusted with the commision of the CCC?

This makes no sense to me at all. From what I have read of the Domimus lesus it is in direct line with the CCC!

Yes it is. But you aren’t.

 

[rinnie]

Yes it is. But you aren’t.

Oh so NOW you are saying that the CCC is correct, the teaching is correct, but I am wrong to agree with the teaching?

 

[rinnie]

Please give me an exact quote that states that. That is all I am asking. Give me the quote.

ANd Please read the last paragraph before ll The Incarnation Logos…

Still waiting for the quote that you claim is in this document that states the God of Abraham and the Muslim God and the Christian GOd is not indeed ONE in the SAME GOD. GOD the Creator of heaven and earth.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t not for a moment. He knew that the only thing that those people have in their life, the biggest asset in their life is the Quran. Does he accept every word of it, Heck no?

I am hoping that he rejected most of it.

He tells you he does not.

Then he should never have venerated it.

What did you want him to do Mickey? Spit on it, Step on it?

Definitely not kiss it.

What he did was something for the world to See.

And much of the world was aghast!

He showed them his love for them

That can be done without venerating the Koran.

IT is that KISS that they will remember for ALL MIANKIND.

Nonsense.

What was the Kiss?

A tragic mistake!

May all the holy saints who were martyred by Islamicists pray for his soul.

 

[Mickey]

. But the CCC is not a opinion.

Those parts that are not reiterating doctrine…are not binding on RC’s

 

[Mickey]

ven·er·a·tion [vènnə ráysh’n]
noun

1. feeling of respect: feelings of deep respect or awe

Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
No it is not. It only shows the respect that we all cry that needs to be shown to other beliefs that are not ours.

It goes much deeper than your dictionary paste. Venerating the Koran comes off as a deep insult to the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox world especially. Veneration is reserved for our holiest traditions…holy Icons…holy relics…holy Bible…etc.

You cannot fluff it off and put the Koran in the same grouping. Shame on you!

 

[Mickey]

What in the world does this have to do with the Muslims not having the same God as us the God of Abraham.

If you can’t figure it…I’m not going to be able to help you out.

Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

But we still accept their God the God of Abraham as the One True GOd.

Absolutely not. No way!!!

 

[Mickey]

As for whether this God is the one true God is yet to be determined .

I believe it has been determined. They do not.

So I don’t think they have the faith of Abraham completely .

There is no way. The God of Abraham is a Trinitarian God.

 

[rinnie]

I believe it has been determined. They do not.
There is no way. The God of Abraham is a Trinitarian God.

Of Course the God of Abraham is a Trinitarian God, The same God of Abraham is the Same God of the OHCAC, the same God that is the God of the Muslims. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church as CLEARLY noted in the CCC.

But what amazes me more then anything is how any Catholic can deny the truth of the teachings of the CCC and let someone who denies the teaching of their own Pope and Bishops and take your word over their own Pope. THats more of a mystery to me then anything.

Because MIckey you know that my love and respect for you has nothing to do with the true teachings of the RCC. I truly understand Mickey how you can be so against the teachings of the RCC. You reject many of our teachings. As you stated many times if you believed in all of our teachings you would be Roman Catholic.

But for the life of me, how a Catholic can reject the teaching of the CCC THis is a great mystery to me.

But I stand by the teaching fo the CCC and my Pope. I stand and will continue to stand against You Mickey in any negative opinion that you have against any teaching of my Pope or any teaching of the RCC.

And I am sure you can also respect me in this, and you feel the same of your Church. And I am sure you would not let my opinion over rule a teaching your leaders of your Church teach either.

 

[rinnie]

Those parts that are not reiterating doctrine…are not binding on RC’s

Nonsense! All of the teachings of the RCC are binding. As I stated earlier we accept the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. When he speaks with the Authority given to him by Christ to teach in his name, as stated in the CCC it is binding to us. It is indeed STATED he uses his APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY in the CCC.

Where is it stated that any RC can deny his teachings when he speaks with Apostolic Authority? To say this is completely out of line and unfair to my faith.

 

[rinnie]

I am hoping that he rejected most of it.
Then he should never have venerated it.
Definitely not kiss it.
And much of the world was aghast!
That can be done without venerating the Koran.
Nonsense.
A tragic mistake!

May all the holy saints who were martyred by Islamicists pray for his soul.

Mickey who named you Judge? And who cares if the world agrees or disgrees? The Pope did not do any Mortal sin, or any sin at all for showing respect.

Nor did I hear him apologize to anyone or state the he regretted any of his actions. And as far as the people of the world goes. And all of us included here, I think we should take more concern over our own actions and confess our own sins of this world, before we should take time to judge anyone elses actions or make Judgement.

As my Mother always says, We don’t need others to confess our sins for us, We have enough of our own sins to take up our day. You worry about what you do and say that should keep you busy enough.

Or as Our own dear Lord said, let those without Sin PICK up the first stone. Funny how many people of this world forget this, and are sure quick to pick up those stones. As you stated yourself Mickey much of the world was aghast. I am sure most of the world have more to be aghast about in their own life, then what the Pope did. As my Mom would say if they want to be Aghast, take inventory of your own actions and works.

Funny how many People in this world can judge a Holy Man and yet forget to look in the mirror.

And I am sure when GOd sees what we do, he is more AGHAST then to see a Holy Man show an emotion of Honor to bring others to Christ Jesus. As I stated the world need not worry about PAPA, he is just fine. WHat he did was in the name of Love for his Lord and his Lords People.

 

[Busy_bee]

Busy Bee you are missing the Point. We do not believe that the ONE TRUE GOD THE GOD OFABRAHAM revealed to them the truth. THe word of GOD says the CHURCH is the PIlar of all truth not Mohamad.

But just because they were misled by a false prophet does not make the GOD of the false prophet false.

Let me put this to you in todays world.

I believe in the One God the Father Almighty the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Is the ONE GOD THE GOD of the TRINITY THE TRUE GOD? Yes he is, of Course he is.

Now I tell you GOD has revealed himself to ME, I can overpower the Pope, listen to me!

Just because I give you a false revelation does it make my GOD, The Father and the SOn and the Holy Spirit False? Of course not!

I am the false TEACHER , but my GOD is the same TRUE GOD, I am teaching in his name a false revelation. BUt GOD never promised us people would not try to do that. I have NO POWER to do so. But I can still try to fool you. Do you see what I am saying?

That is why he said stick to the teachings of the Fathers of the Church. That is why I am RC. the POPE has a direct LINK to CHrist through St Peter.

I understand that. But the problem is that this false revelation is about God himself! In today’s terms, it’s like saying " I believe in God, but He is a woman." And you say, my God is a spirit. Then you say, but there is only one God! And I say, “yes, I believe that too, but what you describe cannot possibly be my God!”

I agree with you that the bone of contention is the revelation (completely). I’m saying, if they hold strongly to this teaching (whether it be false or true to them), it automatically follows that we can’t be talking about the same person. They believe in trinity? i’m sure they are not the only other religion that believes that. It doesn’t mean we are talking about the same person. Why? Because the God that has been revealed to them, by a prophet (mohammed) says clearly that he does not Have A Son!

They believe in this God, not mohammed. They believe in him who has been revealed to them by a great prophet, His Prophet.

You say they believe in lies told them by a prophet about the one true God. I say, if that is the case, THEY KNOW NOT WHOM THEY WORSHIP!!! They don’t know Him whom they PROFESS to serve, and since they don’t know him, they cannot truly be serving him. So, they do not worship the one true God.
This is my argument.

 

[Busy_bee]

Busy Bee read the O.T and the N.T. God gave us 2 things in this world History and reason. Read the O.T. it will tell you everything about what is to come.

The N.T. does not take away from the O.T. it fullfills it.

There is never stated that someone other then Christ would come. But it DOES say especially in the N.T. that many false prophets will come and claim to be in my name and fool many.

Read what the N.T. states! The CHurch is the pillar of all truth. The apostles are sent in the name of CHrist. The Pope and the Bishops in succession can be traced to him.

Peter is the one who holds the keys to the kingdom the kingdom here on earth THE Catholic CHurch. The Pope can be traced directly to St Peter.

That is a short summary.

Nice try, Rinee, but that is not what I needed clarification about. I have read the bible, and I’m not confused. I needed clarification about the story of how Mohammed got his “revelation” anyway. If you could please help with that-just for knowledge’s sake-it has nothing to do with this discourse.

 

[Busy_bee]

It goes much deeper than your dictionary paste. Venerating the Koran comes off as a deep insult to the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox world especially. Veneration is reserved for our holiest traditions…holy Icons…holy relics…holy Bible…etc.

You cannot fluff it off and put the Koran in the same grouping. Shame on you!

It is English language man! All you are doing when venerating is showing deep respect. Yes, he didn’t need to kiss it, but veneration is the word used in religion to describe the respect given to holy images, icons, e.t.c You are the one that has used the word venerate. This means that you consider the koran a holy book.

Now, look at it this way:
JP II kissed it - I saw respect, you saw veneration. Tell me would you have thought it was veneration if he kissed a football given to him by Manchester united footballers?

It has caused confusion - yes - but it was not an act of confusion and if you only look closely, you’ll see that it is an act that promotes peace. He kissed their most sacred treasure - they think he respects it. We see him kiss it - we think he is charitable. a thank you would have been fine, but our Pope blessed was on a mission to promote ecumenism. So he did more than just thanks. Please don’t judge him, and it cannot be a mortal sin without a bad intention. It is not a sin at all!

Do you know what muslims are wont to do when their koran is touched by an infidel???

 

[Mickey]

JP II kissed it - I saw respect, you saw veneration.

That is what you do when show veneration for holy objects. You do not understand because you are not Eastern Catholic or Orthodox…but JP2 knew quite well.

Tell me would you have thought it was veneration if he kissed a football given to him by Manchester united footballers???

He did not kiss a football…and a football is not considered to be the muslim’s “holy” book.

He kissed their most sacred treasure

Regretfully.

our Pope blessed was on a mission to promote ecumenism.

And I believe he took that ecumenism way too far.

 

[Mickey]

Or as Our own dear Lord said, let those without Sin PICK up the first stone.

This thread is not about sin. We are all sinners.

 

[Mickey]

All of the teachings of the RCC are binding.

No.

 

[Mickey]

The same God of Abraham is the Same God of the OHCAC, the same God that is the God of the Muslims.

There is no way.

But what amazes me more then anything is how any Catholic can deny the truth of the teachings of the CCC

You are the one who is confused…it seems you have become an apologist for the muslim deity.

And I am sure you would not let my opinion over rule a teaching your leaders of your Church teach either.

If I know that someone is teaching error in my Church…even a Patriarch…I will take a stand against it…we are not mindless robots.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. (Gal 1:8)

 

[rinnie]

I understand that. But the problem is that this false revelation is about God himself! In today’s terms, it’s like saying " I believe in God, but He is a woman." And you say, my God is a spirit. Then you say, but there is only one God! And I say, “yes, I believe that too, but what you describe cannot possibly be my God!”

I agree with you that the bone of contention is the revelation (completely). I’m saying, if they hold strongly to this teaching (whether it be false or true to them), it automatically follows that we can’t be talking about the same person. They believe in trinity? i’m sure they are not the only other religion that believes that. It doesn’t mean we are talking about the same person. Why? Because the God that has been revealed to them, by a prophet (mohammed) says clearly that he does not Have A Son!

They believe in this God, not mohammed. They believe in him who has been revealed to them by a great prophet, His Prophet.

You say they believe in lies told them by a prophet about the one true God. I say, if that is the case, THEY KNOW NOT WHOM THEY WORSHIP!!! They don’t know Him whom they PROFESS to serve, and since they don’t know him, they cannot truly be serving him. So, they do not worship the one true God.
This is my argument.

Here is another way which I used earlier. Many Protestants do not believe in the Eucharist. Now with that said could it be fair to say because they do not follow the true Christ in the Eucharist it makes the Christ they follow not the true Christ? Of course not.

Because they do not have the understanding of the Eucharist, you cannot deny they even have the teaching, its plain as day in the word of God, but they still reject it as the true living Christ.

THe Muslims do not have that right, many that are beginning to find Christ in the bible are just now beginning to see the true word of God, and are and will continue to accept him in the Trinity.

But how can the Protestants have the same God as us if they cannot see Christ in the Eucharist, but yet the Muslims cannot have the same God as us because they cannot see him in the Trinity?

People say because they see Christ in the Trinity, but they don’t see him in the Eucharist, so are we not separated by 2 different teachings also.

There is a difference to have the truth revealed to you by the Power of the Holy Spirit and reject it, and not have the truth revealed to you, and then reject it. If you look up earlier for the official teaching you will see where I wrote it. But it is still the same thing.

So explain to me how its not lets say in OUR EYES not just as bad to reject Christ in the Eucharist then. How can we be so forgiving and understanding on one, who have the true word, but then be so unforgiving on the other whom does not?

And while I agree with you on one point I disagree with you on the other. I disagree that they do not worship the true GOd the the Creator of heaven and earth the God of Abraham, I agree that they do not see the God of Abraham in the light of the Trinity revealed to us by the Son of God. How can they see something that was never truly revealed to them.

Until the true word of God and the Holy Spirit reveals this to them, it will not happen. But when the true light is revealed if they are indeed the true children of God it will be accepted. But in Gods time when he feels they can handle it.