Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[Fone_Bone_2001]

The subject of “Allah” as used by Christians today has been covered in previous posts of mine, and no slight is or was intended. However I dispute your assertion that “Allah” is the Arabic word for “God” in the context of the Koran. In Arabic and Islamic use the term Allah was a contraction of el ilah i.e. “god” and was in common use in the pre-islamic pantheon. Mohammed introduced the term “Allah” to represent a “high god”.
Allah is not an Arabic word in origin as it is borrowed from Assyrian.

There’s no way around the fact that today, and for a very long time, “Allah” has been not a name but the word for the concept of a One True God. If this weren’t the case, Arabic-speaking Christians wouldn’t address our God - the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit - as “Allah,” yet they do. Case closed. I will continue to call out the absurdity of using “Allah” as a name for some random other god. Here’s an example:

Precisely. They come from “allah” via “gabriel”. God does not enter into it.

In other words, you have just said, “Precisely. They come from “God” via “gabriel”. God does not enter into it.”

Makes no sense.

That is what you do when show veneration for holy objects. You do not understand because you are not Eastern Catholic or Orthodox…but JP2 knew quite well.

For the record, Mickey, I think I agree with you on this. I love Blessed John Paul II, but I think he made a mistake there. That action scandalized a lot of people, and it doesn’t seem like the Islamic world respects or tolerates Christians any more because of it…

 

[Busy_bee]

Here is another way which I used earlier. Many Protestants do not believe in the Eucharist. Now with that said could it be fair to say because they do not follow the true Christ in the Eucharist it makes the Christ they follow not the true Christ? Of course not.

Because they do not have the understanding of the Eucharist, you cannot deny they even have the teaching, its plain as day in the word of God, but they still reject it as the true living Christ.

THe Muslims do not have that right, many that are beginning to find Christ in the bible are just now beginning to see the true word of God, and are and will continue to accept him in the Trinity.

But how can the Protestants have the same God as us if they cannot see Christ in the Eucharist, but yet the Muslims cannot have the same God as us because they cannot see him in the Trinity?

People say because they see Christ in the Trinity, but they don’t see him in the Eucharist, so are we not separated by 2 different teachings also.

There is a difference to have the truth revealed to you by the Power of the Holy Spirit and reject it, and not have the truth revealed to you, and then reject it. If you look up earlier for the official teaching you will see where I wrote it. But it is still the same thing.

So explain to me how its not lets say in OUR EYES not just as bad to reject Christ in the Eucharist then. How can we be so forgiving and understanding on one, who have the true word, but then be so unforgiving on the other whom does not?

And while I agree with you on one point I disagree with you on the other. I disagree that they do not worship the true GOd the the Creator of heaven and earth the God of Abraham, I agree that they do not see the God of Abraham in the light of the Trinity revealed to us by the Son of God. How can they see something that was never truly revealed to them.

Until the true word of God and the Holy Spirit reveals this to them, it will not happen. But when the true light is revealed if they are indeed the true children of God it will be accepted. But in Gods time when he feels they can handle it.

B]Because they do not have the understanding of the Eucharist, you cannot deny they even have the teaching, its plain as day in the word of God, but they still reject it as the true living Christ.

To you, it is plain as day (and me too), but to them, it’s taking simple parables at face value.

Here is another way which I used earlier. Many Protestants do not believe in the Eucharist. Now with that said could it be fair to say because they do not follow the true Christ in the Eucharist it makes the Christ they follow not the true Christ? Of course not.

As I said, it is not the same thing. Here, you are talking about difference in acceptance or understanding; the scenario with the muslims is a completely different path, or revelation! They are not just saying: God revealed himself to us all, but you interpreted Him wrongly, so he sent his prophet mohammed to correct you. No, they are saying the Koran is not a correction of the bible, it is the only revelation from allah, so the bible is like our historical documentation, their Koran is the TRUTH. To the muslim, all in christianity was the preamble to the real revelation so the teachings of the bible have no authority, they are wise sayings at best. The Koran is the book in paradise.

It is either the Koran is God’s revelation AS A WHOLE, or the bible is. The difference lies in Revelation, not understanding. How can you expect a muslim to UNDERSTAND that the Koran was not given by Allah? It would mean that Mohammed lied. And if he didn’t lie, then he was greatly mistaken. If a muslim accepts this, guess where he’d have to begin from?
A COMPLETELY NEW REVELATION OF GOD TO HIM, which is the same to me as where the samaritans would have to start from.

Look at the samaritans closely. They were enemies of the Jews, and they worshipped “God” on some mountain. This is not how God asked for it to be done. besides, they were not faithful which is how they ended up as despised samaritans anyway. But when the woman at the well told Jesus:[BIBLEDRB] john 4:20[/BIBLEDRB]
Jesus told her:[BIBLEDRB] John 4:21[/BIBLEDRB]
and then, [BIBLEDRB]John 4:22[/BIBLEDRB]

The muslims, from this analogy (which I think is more appropriate) do not know whom they worship. They claim to worship Him, but because of a false revelation, their worship is also rendered false. However, they claim they believe in Him, and this is what the church respects and identifies with. It is also what I identify with. Belief, not worship, and so to me, they do not hold the Faith of Abraham completely

 

[Busy_bee]

Rinnee, the Jehovah’s witnesses are not considered christians. Why? Because they differ from Christians in the very essence of Christian faith:the divinity and equality with God which Christ posseses. But why don’t I say they do not worship the true God? Because they believe in him AND follow his teachings. Yes, they lack a basic truth just like the Jews, but they know who he is. The muslims do not know him, even though if they did, they would probably be better followers than some Christians are. They love Him, they think they have found Him, but they are wrong. What they practise is like African traditional religions. There is the belief in one creator who sends his creatures to organise and maintain the earth and they have all sorts of ideas as to what needs be done to please this god, including sacrificing their children But when the missionaries came, they were told they had the idea of God, but that they were wrong to worship him that way. The converts had to leave all their "knowledge behind. They didn’t stop believing in God, but they realised that all that time, it was the devil they had been worshipping and not God. This is the case with Blessed Iwene tansi of Nigeria. This was exactly how he started. It’s harder to convince the muslims because they believe in the prophet mohammed who convinced them by his deeds. Deeds which he learned from his association with Jews and I believe early Christianity. they were won over, and now it will be difficult to think he was wrong. Just as it would be for us to think that Christ was wrong:bigyikes:

 

[Busy_bee]

For the record, Mickey, I think I agree with you on this. I love Blessed John Paul II, but I think he made a mistake there. That action scandalized a lot of people, and it doesn’t seem like the Islamic world respects or tolerates Christians any more because of it…

At least they didn’t ask for his head. That’s a lot of tolerance. I think JPII knew what he was doing. We have something that would outrage christians and muslims too - a perfect middle line don’t you think?

I must admit, though, I don’t know anything about orthodox and eastern churches - at all.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnee, the Jehovah’s witnesses are not considered christians. Why? Because they differ from Christians in the very essence of Christian faith:the divinity and equality with God which Christ posseses. But why don’t I say they do not worship the true God? Because they believe in him AND follow his teachings. Yes, they lack a basic truth just like the Jews, but they know who he is. The muslims do not know him, even though if they did, they would probably be better followers than some Christians are. They love Him, they think they have found Him, but they are wrong. What they practise is like African traditional religions. There is the belief in one creator who sends his creatures to organise and maintain the earth and they have all sorts of ideas as to what needs be done to please this god, including sacrificing their children But when the missionaries came, they were told they had the idea of God, but that they were wrong to worship him that way. The converts had to leave all their "knowledge behind. They didn’t stop believing in God, but they realised that all that time, it was the devil they had been worshipping and not God. This is the case with Blessed Iwene tansi of Nigeria. This was exactly how he started. It’s harder to convince the muslims because they believe in the prophet mohammed who convinced them by his deeds. Deeds which he learned from his association with Jews and I believe early Christianity. they were won over, and now it will be difficult to think he was wrong. Just as it would be for us to think that Christ was wrong:bigyikes:

Wow, they follow the teaching’s of Christ. You need to do some more investigation in this matter my Love. They reject pretty much all of the teachng’s of the Catholic Church.

Let me get back to something you need to be aware of.

Mickey claims that the Muslims know of the Trinity and it was quite clear to them in the O.T.

If you go back to the N.T. remember when the Jews said to Jesus WHO ARE YOU? HE answers I AM. Then again repeats I AM HE, but then he explands it with a reference to FURTURE HISTORY?

WHEN you have lifted up the Son of Man THEN you WILL KNOW I AM HE.

It is on the Cross, his SONSHIP, HIS ONENESS with the FATHER BECOMES VISIBLE. IT is the CROSS the height of LOVE TO THE END John 13:1, IT is on the Cross Jesus is EXHAULTED to the very HEIGHT of the GOD who is love. IT is there that he can be KNOWN that I AM HE can be RECOGNIZED.

MIckey claims that the Trinity could be recognized in the O.T. How could it be clearly seen without the Cross. Jesus said himself IT is WHEN you have lifted up the SON OF MAN Then you will know I AM HE.

Please explain to us Mickey how this can be. If we could see Jesus as the True God before the Cross why did Jesus said he was not until the cross?

 

[Mickey]

For the record, Mickey, I think I agree with you on this. I love Blessed John Paul II, but I think he made a mistake there. That action scandalized a lot of people, and it doesn’t seem like the Islamic world respects or tolerates Christians any more because of it…

Thank you, my friend. I agree.

I have never been able to wrap my mind around it.

 

[rinnie]

Nice try, Rinee, but that is not what I needed clarification about. I have read the bible, and I’m not confused. I needed clarification about the story of how Mohammed got his “revelation” anyway. If you could please help with that-just for knowledge’s sake-it has nothing to do with this discourse.

You need to go back and read the history about it then. I cannot do everything for you, if I do then you will not see the truth that you need to see.

But to make a long story short it is a self-proclaimed revelation! That is your big hint! Which you will also find in the Morman faith. Joseph Smith and Mohammad are both 2 people who CLAIM that they had a vison from the God.

Just like we do not accept the claim of Joseph Smith nor Mohammad’s claim.

 

[Mickey]

At least they didn’t ask for his head.

Oh…that’s a grand argument.

 

[Mickey]

MIckey claims that the Trinity could be recognized in the O.T.

Indeed. And I have shown you where Christ and the Holy Spirit is in the OT…over and over again…but of course you always ignored those particular posts.

 

[jam070406]

Wow, they follow the teaching’s of Christ. You need to do some more investigation in this matter my Love. They reject pretty much all of the teachng’s of the Catholic Church.

Let me get back to something you need to be aware of.

Mickey claims that the Muslims know of the Trinity and it was quite clear to them in the O.T.

If you go back to the N.T. remember when the Jews said to Jesus WHO ARE YOU? HE answers I AM. Then again repeats I AM HE, but then he explands it with a reference to FURTURE HISTORY?

WHEN you have lifted up the Son of Man THEN you WILL KNOW I AM HE.

It is on the Cross, his SONSHIP, HIS ONENESS with the FATHER BECOMES VISIBLE. IT is the CROSS the height of LOVE TO THE END John 13:1, IT is on the Cross Jesus is EXHAULTED to the very HEIGHT of the GOD who is love. IT is there that he can be KNOWN that I AM HE can be RECOGNIZED.

MIckey claims that the Trinity could be recognized in the O.T. How could it be clearly seen without the Cross. Jesus said himself IT is WHEN you have lifted up the SON OF MAN Then you will know I AM HE.

Please explain to us Mickey how this can be. If we could see Jesus as the True God before the Cross why did Jesus said he was not until the cross?

Rinnie,
Islam developed in the 7th century. Not prior to Christ.

 

[rinnie]

There is no way.
You are the one who is confused…it seems you have become an apologist for the muslim deity.
If I know that someone is teaching error in my Church…even a Patriarch…I will take a stand against it…we are not mindless robots.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. (Gal 1:8)

Mickey I am going to ignore your awful insult calling me a apologist for the muslim deity. But you will go to your grave with that, and answer to God for that.

My Church does not teach in error. My Church has the promise from the Holy Spirit when it teaches in the name of the Lord it will be free from error.

For any Catholic who needs the truth please go to page 5 of the CCC. IT is there where it is quite clear that the CCC by the Apostolic Authorty of the Pope that it Valid and Legitimate.

I am sorry that you have to reduce yourself to such angry remarks when all I have done was quote clear teaching of the CCC. I am quite surprised that you would do something like that Mikey. I felt you were much more then that.

WHen you on the other hand never produced not ONE CHURCH teaching or statement that goes against anything that was said.

Just your own personal opinion. IT is just that the opinons of people that the bible tells us to stay away from. To stick with the teachers of the Church.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey I am going to ignore your awful insult calling me a apologist for the muslim deity.

It is not an insult, dear. You have been arguing for weeks now that the Muslims worship the same God as the Christians. We know that they do not not worship the same God…the Trinitarian God…that makes you an apologist for that particular position.

My Church has the promise from the Holy Spirit when it teaches in the name of the Lord it will be free from error.

Your Church teaches such a thing for ex-cathedra statements only.

I am sorry that you have to reduce yourself to such angry remarks

I am not angry at all…I am secure in the truth of this topic…but it sure seems that you are getting quite perturbed.

WHen you on the other hand never produced not ONE CHURCH teaching or statement that goes against anything that was said.

You call Scripture and Tradition nothing? Sheesh!

 

[Mickey]

But you will go to your grave with that, and answer to God for that.

You best be careful about cursing people to the grave…that is considered to be serious sin. Perhaps you should leave this thread.

 

[jam070406]

Here is another way which I used earlier. Many Protestants do not believe in the Eucharist. Now with that said could it be fair to say because they do not follow the true Christ in the Eucharist it makes the Christ they follow not the true Christ? Of course not.

Because they do not have the understanding of the Eucharist, you cannot deny they even have the teaching, its plain as day in the word of God, but they still reject it as the true living Christ.

THe Muslims do not have that right, many that are beginning to find Christ in the bible are just now beginning to see the true word of God, and are and will continue to accept him in the Trinity.

But how can the Protestants have the same God as us if they cannot see Christ in the Eucharist, but yet the Muslims cannot have the same God as us because they cannot see him in the Trinity?

People say because they see Christ in the Trinity, but they don’t see him in the Eucharist, so are we not separated by 2 different teachings also.

There is a difference to have the truth revealed to you by the Power of the Holy Spirit and reject it, and not have the truth revealed to you, and then reject it. If you look up earlier for the official teaching you will see where I wrote it. But it is still the same thing.

So explain to me how its not lets say in OUR EYES not just as bad to reject Christ in the Eucharist then. How can we be so forgiving and understanding on one, who have the true word, but then be so unforgiving on the other whom does not?

And while I agree with you on one point I disagree with you on the other. I disagree that they do not worship the true GOd the the Creator of heaven and earth the God of Abraham, I agree that they do not see the God of Abraham in the light of the Trinity revealed to us by the Son of God. How can they see something that was never truly revealed to them.

Until the true word of God and the Holy Spirit reveals this to them, it will not happen. But when the true light is revealed if they are indeed the true children of God it will be accepted. But in Gods time when he feels they can handle it.

I think your analogy is weak. It’s apples and oranges.
Perhaps a better analogy would be Mormons, who claim to be the one true church. They have a false book with false beliefs about Jesus. They profess to be His followers of Jesus but in fact are not Christian.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
Islam developed in the 7th century. Not prior to Christ.

What does that have to do with the Trinity being truly revealed in the N.T.? Also why would I deny that when Jesus and his Mother are mentioned?

I never denied that. And I never said I agree with thier teachings.

Why does this keeping getting off of the true subject at hand. That we are taught from our faith that we both pray to the same God the God of Abraham.

The One thing we all agree on Christians, Muslims, and Jews is there is only One God the creator of heaven and earth the same God of Abraham.

 

[jam070406]

Mickey I am going to ignore your awful insult calling me a apologist for the muslim deity. But you will go to your grave with that, and answer to God for that.

My Church does not teach in error. My Church has the promise from the Holy Spirit when it teaches in the name of the Lord it will be free from error.

For any Catholic who needs the truth please go to page 5 of the CCC. IT is there where it is quite clear that the CCC by the Apostolic Authorty of the Pope that it Valid and Legitimate.

I am sorry that you have to reduce yourself to such angry remarks when all I have done was quote clear teaching of the CCC. I am quite surprised that you would do something like that Mikey. I felt you were much more then that.

WHen you on the other hand never produced not ONE CHURCH teaching or statement that goes against anything that was said.

Just your own personal opinion. IT is just that the opinons of people that the bible tells us to stay away from. To stick with the teachers of the Church.

It’s actually not clear in the CCC. It’s ambiguous and can be interpreted wrong if the whole of Catholic Teaching and Truth is not taken into account. Catholic Truth is not summed up in one sentence or small paragraph taken out of context.

 

[jam070406]

What does that have to do with the Trinity being truly revealed in the N.T.? Also why would I deny that when Jesus and his Mother are mentioned?

I never denied that. And I never said I agree with thier teachings.

Why does this keeping getting off of the true subject at hand. That we are taught from our faith that we both pray to the same God the God of Abraham.

The One thing we all agree on Christians, Muslims, and Jews is there is only One God the creator of heaven and earth the same God of Abraham.

Muslims deny the Trinity therefore do not hold the Faith of Abraham.

 

[rinnie]

I think your analogy is weak. It’s apples and oranges.
Perhaps a better analogy would be Mormons, who claim to be the one true church. They have a false book with false beliefs about Jesus. They profess to be His followers of Jesus but in fact are not Christian.

To be honest I have no idea what they truly profess. But again we have about a million topics here, and are going to get in trouble if we continue to do this.

We need to open a ton of different topics. All I know is the only 3 religions that my Church teaches who profess the One God is as I mentioned the Muslims, Christians and Jews.

 

[Mickey]

It’s actually not clear in the CCC.

That is true.

Is the CCC statement derived from Nostra Aetate? Is that the first time it appears?

 

[rinnie]

Muslims deny the Trinity therefore do not hold the Faith of Abraham.

Could you show me where the CCC states that Muslims do not hold the faith of Abraham, until you can do so, I will continue to obey the teachings of the CCC.