Syriac (and Maronite) Romanisations vs Melkite Byzantinisations

[shlomo3amrooh]

We hear all the time the large number of Romanisations (mostly neo-Romanisations) that have occurred and are occurring within Syriac Churches whom are in communion with Rome. It is a very sad phenomenon indeed.

Nevertheless the Byzantinisations that the Melkite (or Roum) Church has experienced far surpasses the Romanisations within any Catholic Syriac Church. The Melkites are a group of Syriac Christians who adopted the liturgy, traditions and spirituality of the Byzantine Emperor. Over time, the name *Melkite *(A Syriac term for ‘Imperials’), was given to them.

The Melkites were a Syro-Antiochene Church that got Byzantanised completely and ceased to use the Syro-Antiochene liturgy by the 13th century. Nevertheless, the Melkites still maintained the use of the Syriac language, what was used by the Melkites was simply a Syriac translation of the Greek-Byzantine liturgy. The Melkites also developed their own script of Syriac, a mixture of Serto and Estrangelo script.

to read more click below:

qadishat.com/2013/11/syriac-and-maronite-romanisations-vs.html

 

[malphono]

It’s called “Roum” from “New Rome” (i.e, Constantinople) precisely because the adherents were Byzantinized. Doesn’t really matter, though, since the majority of Roum (whether Catholique or Orthodoxe) are ethnically Arab. The Syriacs and the Maronites, (and the Chaldeans/ACoE) of course, are not. And therein lies one big difference.

 

[Digitonomy]

The Syriacs and the Maronites, (and the Chaldeans/ACoE) of course, are not [dthnic Arabs]

It hadn’t occurred to me that Maronites might not be ethnically Arab, coming as they do from an Arab country (in the broad sense). What was their ethnicity?

 

[SyroMalankara]

It hadn’t occurred to me that Maronites might not be ethnically Arab, coming as they do from an Arab country (in the broad sense). What was their ethnicity?

Chaldeao-Assyrians

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I fully realize that the various factions of these sects have been at each others throats for centuries. However, in light of what Pope Francis said about over emphasis of the wrong things in our religon, I think both sides should concentrate on being true Christians and follow Christ’s example in terms of tolerance.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Tolerance of what? The Melkites, Syriacs, Maronites and Chaldeans are not “at each others throats” whatsoever.

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

It’s called “Roum” from “New Rome” (i.e, Constantinople) precisely because the adherents were Byzantinized. Doesn’t really matter, though, since the majority of Roum (whether Catholique or Orthodoxe) are ethnically Arab. The Syriacs and the Maronites, (and the Chaldeans/ACoE) of course, are not. And therein lies one big difference.

I’m not sure if that’s 100% correct though. There are Melkites with surnames like ‘Saliba’.

 

[MorEphrem]

I fully realize that the various factions of these sects have been at each others throats for centuries. However, in light of what Pope Francis said about over emphasis of the wrong things in our religon, I think both sides should concentrate on being true Christians and follow Christ’s example in terms of tolerance.

The myth perpetuated by Western propaganda of eternal brawl in the Middle East is only done to justify Israeli “defense.” Don’t be so much part of the sheeple - we’re not inherently violent and we’re certainly not at each other’s throats.

 

[dzheremi]

I’m not sure if that’s 100% correct though. There are Melkites with surnames like ‘Saliba’.

And this is supposed to prove that they’re ethnically Syriac? What do you then make of people like famous Lebanese singer Ghassan Saliba?

 

[Peter_J]

I fully realize that the various factions of these sects have been at each others throats for centuries. However, in light of what Pope Francis said about over emphasis of the wrong things in our religon, I think both sides should concentrate on being true Christians and follow Christ’s example in terms of tolerance.

What factions of what sects?

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

And this is supposed to prove that they’re ethnically Syriac? What do you then make of people like famous Lebanese singer Ghassan Saliba?

Well it proves it’s not clear-cut at least. The Ghassanids and Lakhmids would’ve intermarried with various Christian communities.

 

[malphono]

I’m not sure if that’s 100% correct though. There are Melkites with surnames like ‘Saliba’.

True, but keep in mind that the root word is the same in all Semitic languages.

BTW, there was a very good [thread=341554]thread[/thread] about this a few years back. I draw attention in particular to posts by our elusive brother antgaria.

 

[malphono]

And this is supposed to prove that they’re ethnically Syriac? What do you then make of people like famous Lebanese singer Ghassan Saliba?

The use of given names of that type became popular among some Christians in Lebanon (and elsewhere in the Middle East) mainly starting in the mid-50s. And it’s not only on the part of those who buy into the “Arab identity” myth. For example, I have a cousin named Ghassan and his brother is named Ghazi. The use of such names is still current, but the fad seems to have tapered off a bit in the past 25 or so years. It’s also been the custom for ages to use certain “neutral” given names, such as “Asaad” (“Lion”) or “Fahd” (“Leopard”), for example, or even names from Mythology (e.g, “Hector” or “Jupiter” etc). Both trends seem to have been more popular for boys, but they also affect girls (“Aliya” “Joumanna” “Athena” etc). But in all cases, there’s invariably a Christian middle name too.

And BTW, I like Ghassan Saliba (not the given name, but the voice).

 

[dzheremi]

I like Ghassan Saliba too, but I was just kidding around in any case to make the point that the name itself can’t tell you anything. Just like Syriacs and “Arabs”, there are plenty of Syriacs with Persian names (Behnam, Mirza, Freydoon, etc.), Turkish names (for the Suryoyo), and even Russian and Georgian names (thanks to the Treaty of Turkmenchay and some later immigration due to the various massacres).

 

[Zekariya]

“Devoid of any Syro-Antiochene traditions, spirituality and liturgy. It has simply become an Arabic Byzantine Church.”

I must disagree with the above. The Byzantine Rite came from the Antiochene Rite. A lot of “Byzantine” hymns are actually Antiochene hymns written by Antiochene saints (St John Damascene being one of many). We may be devoid of a lot but we are not devoid of all.

St John Damascene wrote a major part of what is used in the Byzantine Rite:
“The first poetic and musical product of St John of Damascus is the Octoechos, which was composed on the basis of his eight tone system.”
Source: ec-patr.net/en/history/damascenos.htm

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm. The vast majority of sources I’ve read claim that John of Damascus was an ethnic Arab.

Anyway, regarding the octoechos, it has long been observed that the Syriac musical system (like the Coptic and the Armenian) which is assumed to be built around this musical system is actually quite a bit more complex than that, since there are many, many melodies that have no counterpart to the common eight tones (as is true in the Byzantine and Latin churches too, actually). “Frequently the octoechos is merely the result of a recent reconstruction of the eight modes after the original framework had been forgotten or corrupted due to the lack of musical notation. Such is the case in the musical traditions of the Syrian, Coptic, and Armenian Churches and of the Synagogue. In these traditions not even the a priori octoechos can be reconstructed with a reasonable degree of certainty, and many more modes would have to be set up in order to account for the various melodies outside the octoechos.” (Contributions to a Historical Study of Jewish Music, ed. Eric Warner; p. 148)

While the Syriacs do use some form of the octoechos (and the Copts at least think they do…sometimes), when I hear of the modes (particularly when talked about using their Greek names, rather than corresponding maqamat), I don’t think “Syriac”, I think “Byzantine”. Again, not because there is no correspondence between the musical systems, but because the eight tone system as concerns all the OO churches is a later development or reconstruction after the fact – an attempt to shoehorn the many varying chants we do have in the various churches into the contrived Byzantine system which is not recorded any earlier than the 6th century (the so-called Hagiopolitan octoechos), which is after the Syriac, Coptic, and other OO musical traditions had been established. Some sources, such as Levy and Jeffery (ed.) 2002, even talk about “unsuccessful medieval attempts to introduce the eight modes into the Egyptian Church”. Hahaha. We suck. The Syriacs, of course, were more amenable to this system, but still lack such a defined system in practice outside of a few customary uses.

While Malphono may or may not be wrong, if he is I would assume that he’s probably less wrong than you think. A lot of Byzantines seem to want credit for both being “Antiochian” while simultaneously despising everything non-Byzantine, even if it too is Antiochian (there were Syriac people in Antioch, of course; just like how Alexandria was “Greek” but had plenty of ethnic Egyptians in it, e.g., St. Athanasius the Apostolic was an Alexandrian Copt). Well I’m sorry, but you don’t get to have it both ways. You were Byzantinized, and now that is your identity. While they may have done so historically, no Antiochian these days chants their liturgy in Syriac. Even in transitioning to Arabic, which is commendable (as it had long been the language of the people in Antioch while they were still chanting in Greek, because Byzantines loooooove to make everything Greek), all that happened is you ended up reproducing Byzantine chant in Arabic. You didn’t actually (re)adopt any Semitic framework for your chant. That’s gone for you, as most Byzantines will admit (or, at best, feebly attempt to reconnect to original Semitic chant via some long-lost past connection with the Jews; yes, fine…basically every Christian chant form can be spoken of similarly, with the possible exception of the Ethiopian due to its native authorship at the hands of St. Yared, far from Jerusalem). It’s silly to try to claim it because your Arab saint from Damascus wrote an octoechos. The result was solidly Byzantine, which is to say Greek, not Syriac (even if preformed in Palestine, Syria, Egypt, etc).

 

[Zekariya]

Thanks for such a detailed response. In my ignorance, I thought that Antiochene was what an Arab person from Antioch was.

I certainly agree that the Melkite Church is thoroughly Byzantine and has perhaps has lost 99.999% of Antiochene tradition. I was only disagreeing the strong blanket statement that we lack any Antiochene tradition. I suppose I was wrong.

 

[dzheremi]

Thanks for such a detailed response. In my ignorance, I thought that Antiochene was what an Arab person from Antioch was.

Well, there are apparently a few different uses of the term in this thread, so I wouldn’t blame you for becoming confused. But note that Malphono used the term “Syro-Antiochene”, which is obviously not Arab-Byzantine (since, of course, you guys don’t use Syriac anything anymore, and haven’t for centuries). So, in that context, John Damascene’s ethnic identity does matter, since Syriacs are not Arabs, and the two are recipients and conservators of two quite different liturgical traditions at Antioch – the Syriac for the non-Hellenized people, and the “Antiochene” Byzantine/Greco-Arab for the Hellenized people. Both are Antiochian in a geographical sense. You, the Melkites, are the Hellenized people. The Syriacs are the non-Hellenized (though, in the case of the Maronites at least, the Arabization is a common trait with the modern Melkites). It is the Chalcedonians in the East who were among the first to adopt the Arab ethnicity and custom, discarding their earlier Syriac identity (which was once quite strong in places like Palestine, where the native Church now considers itself “Arab” despite being headed by a Greek…) in favor of following their Constantinopolitan masters in everything via a process of Byzantinization that is well-documented.

I certainly agree that the Melkite Church is thoroughly Byzantine and has perhaps has lost 99.999% of Antiochene tradition. I was only disagreeing the strong blanket statement that we lack any Antiochene tradition. I suppose I was wrong.

Well, you certainly lack any Syro-Antiochene tradition since you guys progressively jettisoned the language and customs centuries ago. Now the only that separates an Antiochian from his Greek cousins is language, and then not even completely (as you have mentioned in your own church that things are sung in Greek, too).

Antiochian Orthodox chant - Psalm 135
Greek Orthodox chant - Psalm 135

Both sound pretty similar to each other, or at least much more similar to each other than either sounds to Syriac hymn chanting (sorry I couldn’t find psalm 135 on Youtube according to Syriac Orthodox usage…but hopefully you get the point; I doubt that Psalm 91 according to Antiochene Greco-Arab usage magically sounds like this. )

 

[Peter_J]

“Devoid of any Syro-Antiochene traditions, spirituality and liturgy. It has simply become an Arabic Byzantine Church.”

I must disagree with the above. The Byzantine Rite came from the Antiochene Rite. A lot of “Byzantine” hymns are actually Antiochene hymns written by Antiochene saints (St John Damascene being one of many). We may be devoid of a lot but we are not devoid of all.

St John Damascene wrote a major part of what is used in the Byzantine Rite:
“The first poetic and musical product of St John of Damascus is the Octoechos, which was composed on the basis of his eight tone system.”
Source: ec-patr.net/en/history/damascenos.htm

Well said. Syriac elements are sadly few-and-far-between in our (Melkite) liturgy, but we should really cherish the few that we still have.

 

[Zekariya]

Well, there are apparently a few different uses of the term in this thread, so I wouldn’t blame you for becoming confused. But note that Malphono used the term “Syro-Antiochene”, which is obviously not Arab-Byzantine (since, of course, you guys don’t use Syriac anything anymore, and haven’t for centuries). So, in that context, John Damascene’s ethnic identity does matter, since Syriacs are not Arabs, and the two are recipients and conservators of two quite different liturgical traditions at Antioch – the Syriac for the non-Hellenized people, and the “Antiochene” Byzantine/Greco-Arab for the Hellenized people. Both are Antiochian in a geographical sense. You, the Melkites, are the Hellenized people. The Syriacs are the non-Hellenized (though, in the case of the Maronites at least, the Arabization is a common trait with the modern Melkites). It is the Chalcedonians in the East who were among the first to adopt the Arab ethnicity and custom, discarding their earlier Syriac identity (which was once quite strong in places like Palestine, where the native Church now considers itself “Arab” despite being headed by a Greek…) in favor of following their Constantinopolitan masters in everything via a process of Byzantinization that is well-documented.

Well, you certainly lack any Syro-Antiochene tradition since you guys progressively jettisoned the language and customs centuries ago. Now the only that separates an Antiochian from his Greek cousins is language, and then not even completely (as you have mentioned in your own church that things are sung in Greek, too).

Antiochian Orthodox chant - Psalm 135
Greek Orthodox chant - Psalm 135

Both sound pretty similar to each other, or at least much more similar to each other than either sounds to Syriac hymn chanting (sorry I couldn’t find psalm 135 on Youtube according to Syriac Orthodox usage…but hopefully you get the point; I doubt that Psalm 91 according to Antiochene Greco-Arab usage magically sounds like this. )

So, Syro and Antiochene are essentially synonymous?

I do know that Byzantine Chant sounds pretty much the same whether in Arabic or Greek (although the Slav-Byzantine chants sound quite different… ).

Thanks! You have been quite informative as usual.