Syriac Catholics and Messianic Jews

[Addai]

I’m curious if any of you: Eastern Catholics, especially any Maronite, Chaldean, and Syriac Catholics have had many dealings with Messianic Jews.

I must say over the years, I’ve been very unimpressed with many of their claims, especially regarding “Replacement Theology”. I would love to hear some of your stories! I’m currently involved in an online discussion on another board on that topic.

 

[porthos11]

I’m curious if any of you: Eastern Catholics, especially any Maronite, Chaldean, and Syriac Catholics have had many dealings with Messianic Jews.

I must say over the years, I’ve been very unimpressed with many of their claims, especially regarding “Replacement Theology”. I would love to hear some of your stories! I’m currently involved in an online discussion on another board on that topic.

Ultimately, “Messianic Jews” are really nothing more than evangelical Protestants.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Ultimately, “Messianic Jews” are really nothing more than evangelical Protestants.

I have to agree…

 

[Addai]

I have to agree…

Yes true and I’ve found that out myself long ago. They are Protestants that not only blame why things aren’t the way they think should be on “Corruption of the Catholic Church”, but also on anti-Semticism as well.

 

[malphono]

Yes true and I’ve found that out myself long ago. They are Protestants that not only blame why things aren’t the way they think should be on “Corruption of the Catholic Church”, but also on anti-Semticism as well.

My limited experience with same says I rather agree. The only times I’ve encountered such folks have been in unmemorable circumstances. Usually in a crowded subway station where they were handing out leaflets. I habitually decline. (Of course I decline every flyer or leaflet proffered, regardless of the provenance. I won’t read it anyway and I strongly support save a tree.)

As a rule, I do not reveal my ethnic or religious background to parties that are attempting to proselytize. And in any case, as I look at it, anyone who is proselytizing in a public place evidently could care less what the subject’s background is.

 

[jfoges]

I have some jewish background and I am a convert to Catholicism. In a way I can relate to messianic jews. There is a certain place for discussion about the relationship between Judaism and Catholicism for Jewish converts to the Church.

 

[Robbinson]

The label “messianic jews” encompasses a broad range of Jewish beleivers. Some are incredibly impressive in their knowledge of scripture and the application of the Jewish roots of our faith to Christianity - others not so much so. I agree, the vast majority are “protestant” being brought to faith through the evangelical movement, but not all. There are “Hebrew Catholics”.

Some messianic jews hold to many, if not all, of the traditional Jewish customs (dietary laws, celebration of Jewish feast days (albeit with reference to Yeshua)). Some fall into legalism in doing this. Others hold mainstream Protestant views though have an affinity for Jewish traditions and customs.

I came to faith as a Jewish adult - and was (still am technically) Protestant. I’ve been progressively drawn to Catholicism such that I consider myself Catholic at heart now - and I"m working toward formal communion with the Church. I still fellowship in a bible study with other Jewish believers (all Protestant), only a few of them would call themselves “messianic” – and this has been a wonderful opportunity to help them explore the doctrines of the Church and discover how much “Jewish tradition” in contained within Catholic liturgy and traditions.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Amadeus]

If you do become Catholic, the Association of Hebrew Catholics (in the U.S.) and Rosalind and David Moss would certainly welcome you aboard!

In Israel, there is now a Vicariate for Hebrew-Catholics (the liturgies are celebrated entirely in Hebrew) composed of 4 parishes under the pastoral care of the Custos of the Holy Land… I think, attached to this Vicariate are 2 parishes composed of Russian immigrants.

Welcome home, our elder brother in the faith!

 

[Valke2]

The label “messianic jews” encompasses a broad range of Jewish beleivers. Some are incredibly impressive in their knowledge of scripture and the application of the Jewish roots of our faith to Christianity - others not so much so. I agree, the vast majority are “protestant” being brought to faith through the evangelical movement, but not all. There are “Hebrew Catholics”.

Some messianic jews hold to many, if not all, of the traditional Jewish customs (dietary laws, celebration of Jewish feast days (albeit with reference to Yeshua)). Some fall into legalism in doing this. Others hold mainstream Protestant views though have an affinity for Jewish traditions and customs.

I came to faith as a Jewish adult - and was (still am technically) Protestant. I’ve been progressively drawn to Catholicism such that I consider myself Catholic at heart now - and I"m working toward formal communion with the Church. I still fellowship in a bible study with other Jewish believers (all Protestant), only a few of them would call themselves “messianic” – and this has been a wonderful opportunity to help them explore the doctrines of the Church and discover how much “Jewish tradition” in contained within Catholic liturgy and traditions.

Blessings,

Brian

what the heck is a protestant jewish believer???

 

[Robbinson]

what the heck is a protestant jewish believer???

A jew who has come to believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah and who surcribes to a Protestant doctrine of faith regarding the New Testament (faith alone v. faith and sacrements; eucharist is a symbol rather than real presence; rejects apostolic succession and the authority of the Pope and a number of other theologoical beliefs that are inconsistent with Catholicism).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Addai]

what the heck is a protestant jewish believer???

There’s examples all over the internet. Here’s one.

bethmessiah.com/topic7.htm

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

In Israel, there is now a Vicariate for Hebrew-Catholics (the liturgies are celebrated entirely in Hebrew) composed of 4 parishes under the pastoral care of the Custos of the Holy Land… I think, attached to this Vicariate are 2 parishes composed of Russian immigrants.

that’s really cool, in what liturgical rite–byzantine or roman? i think when a jew enters the fulness of truth, they make Jesus, the Blessed Virgin and st. paul very happy. i bet they get a special grace because Jesus came first for the jews.

i think the tridentine rite in hebrew would be sweet. i’m all for hebrew, greek, aramaic and latin in the liturgy.

 

[Amadeus]

that’s really cool, in what liturgical rite–byzantine or roman? i think when a jew enters the fulness of truth, they make Jesus, the Blessed Virgin and st. paul very happy. i bet they get a special grace because Jesus came first for the jews.

i think the tridentine rite in hebrew would be sweet. i’m all for hebrew, greek, aramaic and latin in the liturgy.

The Vicariate is under the jurisdiction of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem. So, the litrugy in Hebrew could be a translation of the Novus Ordo.

I think the Tridentine Mass can only be celebrated in Latin,. There are no authorized vernacular versions.

 

[Valke2]

From what I know, there is a big difference between Hebrew-Catholics and messianic jews. The former are catholics not pretending to be anything but catholic, while the latter are generally christians pretending to be jews for the purpose of confusing other jews.

Hebrew Catholics, yay.
Messianic Jews, boo.

 

[Robbinson]

From what I know, there is a big difference between Hebrew-Catholics and messianic jews. The former are catholics not pretending to be anything but catholic, while the latter are generally christians pretending to be jews for the purpose of confusing other jews.

Hebrew Catholics, yay.
Messianic Jews, boo.

Valke2 - Its unfortunate that you feel capable of assessing the motivations of others (an entire congregation of believers) in expressing their religous beliefs. You lose some credibility in making statements like this. While its conceivable you can find a particuar individual(s) with these motivations (as you can, I’m sure individuals who pervert the teachings of Judaism and do similar things visa a vie non-Jews), its something else entirely to suggest that all or any substantial percentage of messianic believers have the motivations you ascribe to them.

Its hard to imagine a Christian motivated to live their lives as “messianic jews” ***for the purpose ***of confusing jewish people. That would not be a “Chrisitan” thing to do (nor a Jewish thing to do) (do unto others as you would have them do unto you - Jesus Christ and Hillel both ascribe to this teaching).

Perhaps a more accurate statement would be that these are Chrisitians who want to maintain their Jewish identity and, in doing, so, this is confusing to Jews who do not accept Yeshusa as the Messiah. But you should appreciate that from a Messianic Jews perspective, since they believe Yeshua is the Messiah, they believe they remain “jews” in doing so (just as a Lubuvich Orthodox jew who believes their rebbe to be the Messiah (and now assert he will be resurrected) consider themselves Jews.

Think of it this way - if Yeshua is the Messiah, then those Jews professing such are the most faithful among Jews today.

In any event - whether right or wrong on the issue, they are not parading as “jews” to confuse you or other Jews who do not accept Christ.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Aramis]

The Vicariate is under the jurisdiction of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem. So, the litrugy in Hebrew could be a translation of the Novus Ordo.

I think the Tridentine Mass can only be celebrated in Latin,. There are no authorized vernacular versions.

Wrong. Old Church Slavonic has been authorized since Trent, and probably before even then. It was a perpetual and permanent indult to the Dalmatian region. It was still in force right up until the switch to the new Missale Romanum in 1974, and OCS is still authorized for that region, in lieu of Latin and/or the vernacular!

From the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia:

The liturgy used in the Slavonic language, whether of Greek or Roman Rite, offers no peculiarities differing from the original Greek or Latin sources. The Ruthenians have introduced an occasional minor modification (see RUTHENIAN RITE), but the Orthodox Russians, Bulgarians, and Servians substantially follow he Byzantine liturgy and offices in the Slavonic version. The Glagolitic Missal, Breviary, and ritual follow closely the Roman liturgical books, and the latest editions contain the new offices authorized by the Roman congregations. The casual observer could not distinguish the Slavonic priest from the Latin priest when celebrating Mass or other services, except by hearing the language as pronounced aloud.

Emphasis and italics mine. newadvent.org/cathen/14041b.htm

 

[malphono]

Amadeus:

In Israel, there is now a Vicariate for Hebrew-Catholics (the liturgies are celebrated entirely in Hebrew) composed of 4 parishes under the pastoral care of the Custos of the Holy Land.

Amadeus:

The Vicariate is under the jurisdiction of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem. So, the litrugy in Hebrew could be a translation of the Novus Ordo.

As far as I know, “Hebrew Catholics” pre-dated the Novus Ordo, and I highly doubt the moniker “Hebrew” has anything to do with EF or OF. If I’m not mistaken, the designation “Hebrew” is used for ethno-cultural & linguistic reasons since Hebrew is their mother tongue.

Whatever they do in the OF would of course be a translation. If they were using the EF, it would be the Missale Romanum of 1962, in Latin (absent a special indult), same as elsewhere.

Amadeus:

I think, attached to this Vicariate are 2 parishes composed of Russian immigrants.

Now this I am not familiar with. Are those parishes composed of Russian Jews who converted to the Latin Church and simply refuse to learn Hebrew? Or, are they ethnic Russian Catholics who happen to find themselves in Israel? If the latter, the second question is: are they Roman Rite or are they Russian ECC who are simply under Latin Rite jurisdiction in Israel?

 

[malphono]

From what I know, there is a big difference between Hebrew-Catholics and messianic jews. The former are catholics not pretending to be anything but catholic, while the latter are generally christians pretending to be jews for the purpose of confusing other jews.

Hebrew Catholics, yay.
Messianic Jews, boo.

Yes, indeed, there is a big difference. Albeit that they are ethnically and culturally Israeli, I agree that “Hebrew Catholics” are, as you pointed out, simply Catholics.

As for the Messianic Jews, they are not really an Israeli group, although I suppose they may well exist in Israel too. My numerous (but limited) encounters have all been right here in the US (vid. post #5), and I never found a native Hebrew speaker in the bunch.

From what I understand about them, I tend to agree with what Robbinson said in post #10

Robbinson:

Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
what the heck is a protestant jewish believer???
A jew who has come to believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah and who surcribes to a Protestant doctrine of faith regarding the New Testament (faith alone v. faith and sacrements; eucharist is a symbol rather than real presence; rejects apostolic succession and the authority of the Pope and a number of other theologoical beliefs that are inconsistent with Catholicism).

Saying that they’re “christians pretending to be jews for the purpose of confusing other jews” is perhaps a little strong and bit inaccurate. Maybe it would be better to say they’re “Jews who became Protestant and are intent on convincing other Jews to become Protestant.”

 

[Valke2]

Valke2 - Its unfortunate that you feel capable of assessing the motivations of others (an entire congregation of believers) in expressing their religous beliefs. You lose some credibility in making statements like this. While its conceivable you can find a particuar individual(s) with these motivations (as you can, I’m sure individuals who pervert the teachings of Judaism and do similar things visa a vie non-Jews), its something else entirely to suggest that all or any substantial percentage of messianic believers have the motivations you ascribe to them.

It is not just some individuals. Jews for Jesus is the biggest organization of messianic jews, they are funded by christians and their goal is the conversion of Jews to christianity. Hebrew Catholics, on the other hand, are Catholics who choose to embrace certain aspects of Judaism but who are clearly and proudly catholic. They do not to pass themselves off as “fullfilled jews”.

Many, if not most, messianic jews were never jews to begin with. That is, they were not born jewish and the only conversion process they went through was a messianic jew conversion process, whatever that may be. Messianic Jews make, at best, a dubious claim of being jewish. Hebrew Catholics do not make any such claim.

 

[Valke2]

Saying that they’re “christians pretending to be jews for the purpose of confusing other jews” is perhaps a little strong and bit inaccurate. Maybe it would be better to say they’re “Jews who became Protestant and are intent on convincing other Jews to become Protestant.”

While I am not crazy about jews converting to any form of christianity, that is a personal choice for the individual. That is not the same thing as a messianic jew, however. A Messianic Jew is a person who claims to be Jewish but believes Jesus is the Messiah and/or God. Two believes that are incompatibale with Judaism. While there are more Jews who have converted to messianic judaism than there used to be, the main movements are still essentially christian movements designed to convert jews, generally jews who have little or no religious upbringing (i.e., Russian Jews coming to Israel).