Syro Malabar Bishop states, "Knanaya Diocese was a mistake by the Holy See"?

[Thomas48]

I am very saddened by the news that Mar Jacob Angadiath stated in a recent meeting with KCS (Knanaya Catholic Society) from St. Mary’s and Sacred Hearth Knanaya Catholic Churches of Chicago that, “Kottayam Diocese was a historic mistake on part of the Holy See”. With the on going 28 year battle for the preservation Knanaya Endogamy in North America, Knanaya Lay Associations repeatedly requested upon Mar Jacob Angadiath bishop of the St. Thomas Syro Malabar diocese of North America to help us in this detriment to the traditions of the age old community to which in reply Mar Jacob Angadiath did not offer his help but instead told the community to accept the alteration.

I am extremely upset that the man who states he is our shepherd exclaimed openly that our community should never have fostered and preserved with the creation of our beloved Knanaya Catholic Diocese of Kottayam. In response to this horrific message, KCCNA (Knanaya Catholic Congress of North America) led a hunger strike in front of the Syro Malabar Cathedral of Chicago. A larger 48 hour hunger strike is planned for September 26th to the 28th the date of the ordination of Mar Joy Alappat, new auxiliary bishop of St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese.

Source -Knanaya Heritage Committee/Knanaya Catholic Society of Chicago

From: KCS CHICAGO chicagokcs@gmail.com
Date: September 1, 2014 at 9:42:36 AM EDT
To: kcschicago@googlegroups.com
Cc: Americankna Kna americankna@gmail.com, Sonny Poozhikala spoozhi@gmail.com
Subject: BOLD DECISIONS/RESOLUTIONS TAKEN BY THE CHICAGO KCS SPECIAL POTHUYOGAM (Meeting)

"Dear Community Members,

A general Body meeting unprecedented in the history of Chicago KCS was held on August 31, 2014 at 6.00 PM at KCS Community Center. The meeting was presided over by KCS President, George Thottapuram. Representatives from both Churches and leaders of the newly formed “Knanaya Heritage Preservation Committee” and a large crowd were present at the meeting.

The meeting started with a welcome speech by George Thottpuram in which he explained that the harsh treatment executives of both Knanaya Churches received at the hands of Syro-Malabar leadership and the urgent need for a truthful evaluation of contemporary situation of Knanaya people were the primary reasons for having the groundbreaking Pothuyogam. Later on, recently formed Knanya Heritage Preservation Committee Chairman, Alex Kannachanparmabil, provided the unpleasant details of the meeting between Parish executives of both churches and Syro-Malabar leadership in which Bishop Mar Angadiath had no qualms to say that the establishment of Kottayam Diocese was a historic mistake by the Holy See in addition to churning out many shocking revelations. Subsequently, Knanaya Heritage Committee member, Jose Kaniyaly, presented the Action Plan to be implemented towards achieving ecclesiastical independence. Then, members present at the meeting deliberated over the present situation of Knanaya people in North America and the Action Plan. As the first step of the comprehensive action plan, members threw full support behind the KCCNA sponsored 48 hour hunger strike to be staged in front of Syro-Malbar Cathedral Church from September 26 thru 28 and a high powered conclusive meeting at Community Center on September 28, 2014(Sunday) at 5.00 PM to draw awareness among people of the shameful treatment towards an ethnic community by the Syro-Malabar leadership".

First Knanaya Hunger Strike
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd....50ff107d29c969b0926ed41f2dab76f5&oe=54852657&gda=1419403305_a618f22008d7f17f5b66b32d60dfb140

 

[Jack007]

His Excellency is wrong.

 

[IAM2014]

WELL endogamy for blood and traditions looks wrong from your side. the bible doesnt approve that. you still want to fight for wrong?

 

[phil19034]

Contact Mar Mathew Moolakkattu, Archbishop of The Knanaya Catholic Church and of Kottayam, if he doesn’t already know.

 

[Jack007]

I am not knanaya
I dont say knanaya are all saints
There is no knanaya catholic church, just one archdiocese for them.

 

[Thomas48]

WELL endogamy for blood and traditions looks wrong from your side. the bible doesnt approve that. you still want to fight for wrong?

I understand your thoughts dear friend, we are simply a minority Eastern Catholic community trying earnestly to preserve and protect our identity outside of Kerala. Sadly, we really feel like the Syro Malabar Church sees us as an embarrassment that is why they allow us one tradition in Kerala and another in diaspora communities.

Contact Mar Mathew Moolakkattu, Archbishop of The Knanaya Catholic Church and of Kottayam, if he doesn’t already know.

He has been informed of this matter.

I am not knanaya
I dont say knanaya are all saints
There is no knanaya catholic church, just one archdiocese for them.

Welcome to the forums my dear Syro Malabar brother, yes your are correct on that fact but it often feels like we have our own “church” due to our many separate ecclesiastical facilities.

 

[Jack007]

Ishomishihaykku sthuthiyayirikkatte and sorry for typing in the quotes.

I understand your thoughts dear friend, we are simply a minority Eastern Catholic community trying earnestly to preserve and protect our identity outside of Kerala. Sadly, we really feel like the Syro Malabar Church sees us as an embarrassment that is why they allow us one tradition in Kerala and another in diaspora communities.

The archdiocese is geographically spread wherever syromalbar church has authority.

He has been informed of this matter.

Good

Welcome to the forums my dear Syro Malabar brother, yes your are correct on that fact but it often feels like we have our own “church” due to our many separate ecclesiastical facilities.

Yes, though I wouldnt feel so unless my bishop answers directly to the pope.

 

[Thomas48]

Ishomishihaykku sthuthiyayirikkatte and sorry for typing in the quotes.

Yes, though I wouldnt feel so unless my bishop answers directly to the pope.

Ipporum, epporum, sthuthiayirikkatte. Its quite alright about the quotes ,and yes according to church structure you are correct.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I’m afraid Mar Mathew Moolakkattu and any successors hands will be tied, especially due to the issue of Rev. Jacob Vellian. The Holy See under Popes Benedict and Francis have had enough of errant priests, and in cases where their bishop is complacent, the Holy See has forced the resignation of the bishop and severe canonical punishments. See Weakland in Milwaukee, Mahoney in LA, and many others in Europe and the Caribbean.

Mar Mathew’s best bet at survival is to lay below Rome’s radar, at least until Rev. Vellian is no more, as his response to Rome was a coverup at best, a lie at worst.

 

[Jack007]

Ipporum, epporum, sthuthiayirikkatte. Its quite alright about the quotes ,and yes according to church structure you are correct.

Thank you
and i really like the syromalabar traditional greeting

 

[Thomas48]

I’m afraid Mar Mathew Moolakkattu and any successors hands will be tied, especially due to the issue of Rev. Jacob Vellian. The Holy See under Popes Benedict and Francis have had enough of errant priests, and in cases where their bishop is complacent, the Holy See has forced the resignation of the bishop and severe canonical punishments. See Weakland in Milwaukee, Mahoney in LA, and many others in Europe and the Caribbean.

Mar Mathew’s best bet at survival is to lay below Rome’s radar, at least until Rev. Vellian is no more, as his response to Rome was a coverup at best, a lie at worst.

SyroMalankara, dear friend from my knowledge on the topic of Fr. Vellians case, Mar Matthew was compliant on the orders he received from Rome. The punishment Rome has given to Fr. Vellian was that he was not to perform public ministry under the archdiocese placement. Since the time of his charges (which was quite recent), Fr. Vellian has not been assigned a parish or position by the Archdiocese of Kottayam but only shows up for special events that he is privately called too, i.e weddings/funerals/etc.

In truth the accused priest Fr. Vellian does not perform public ministry (which was reported by Mar Matthew) but only does private ministry in which the priest is called to ceremonies by friends/family/other priests/etc. I am not in anyway supporting the accused priest but only stating that to my knowledge Mar Matthew has been compliant to the orders of Rome. I do not believe Mar Matthew is in anyway on the “low radar of Rome”, he regularly visits the Holy See and is largely an open figure. The abuse is said to have occurred in 1975, Fr. Vellian retired in 2009, and the victim opened up about her case in 2011 it seems. As of 2009, Fr. Vellian has lived in a Catholic retired priests home and only performs ministry when called personally (not assigned by the archdiocese), i.e called to con-celebrate a special Syriac Mass by Syriac scholar colleagues. From 1975-2010 the archdiocese had no knowledge of his actions in America (nor did anyone besides the victim) and gave him the same rights as all other priests. Only pro-2011 did the archdiocese place restrictions on him and since then the priest has lived a majorly quite life only attending very few private ministries.

 

[IAM2014]

I understand your thoughts dear friend, we are simply a minority Eastern Catholic community trying earnestly to preserve and …

Brother, all I can say it is wrong what you community is doing. It not a practice which christians should live by. The purpose is to be one. If you put barriers like blood and tradition then how different are you from the Jews? I understand your small population but it is wrong. Now we can’t go against god can we? Forget what priests or any man say. If the word of God which is the bible is not supporting it. Then please stop. You will be judged for you actions at the end.

 

[Jack007]

I oppose endogamy

 

[SyroMalankara]

Thank you
and i really like the syromalabar traditional greeting

Malankaras and Byzantines use the same greeting!

In English (normal Church season):
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

Byzantine Tradition at Easter:
Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!

There are others!

 

[Jack007]

Malankaras and Byzantines use the same greeting!

In English (normal Church season):
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

Byzantine Tradition at Easter:
Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!

There are others!

i knew that all st. thomas christians use it,but not byzantines. i say that it is used much much more in kerala than all other places combined.

 

[Thomas48]

Brother, all I can say it is wrong what you community is doing. It not a practice which christians should live by. The purpose is to be one. If you put barriers like blood and tradition then how different are you from the Jews? I understand your small population but it is wrong. Now we can’t go against god can we? Forget what priests or any man say. If the word of God which is the bible is not supporting it. Then please stop. You will be judged for you actions at the end.

To each his own opinion but this community is said to have been based off the Old testament whereas practices such as endogamy were permitted. What you must understand is, it is only an ethnic community practice. Knanaya is an ethnic community, our church is the Syro Malabar Church. Anyone can follow Syro Malabar Catholicism, endogamy only plays apart in when in consideration to the Knanaya Community itself. In this way the Church and the community are split. The Knanaya Community and our religion are completely different topics.

It is divine teaching that under our God we must spread our religion and invite all to our Church, I completely agree with you on that but no where does it say that we must invite all into our man-made organizations. In example, the Knanaya Archdiocese has always fervently evangelized for the Syro Malabar Church and established many missionary societies but in order to be considered apart of the Knanaya Community, one must be born of both Knanaya parents and follow endogamy. Once again a split between “church” and “community”. Anyone can worship in a Syro Malabar Church and become Syro Malabar Catholic but no one can become a member of the Knanaya Community besides being conceived as one. Following up on this, the Knanaya Community is a man-made organization and the Syro Malabar Church is divine. Yes, some may dub us a “church” because of numerous ecclesiastical structures named “Knanaya Catholic” but once again in factual view it is only a community.

In a simpler example, lets say you created a group called the “red hat group” which only allowed members with red hats. According to our faith it does not say you have to invite everyone to the red hat group, it is your personal choice who gets to be in this group because you created it and it is a man-mad organization. What our divine teaching does say is that you have to invite and accept everyone into the Catholic Faith because the Catholic Faith is based on God’s word and there can be no alteration to that. So lets say one day the authorities from the Catholic Church tell you how to run and organize the red hat group which you created and has nothing to do with them. Does that make any sense? This is exactly what is happening to the Knanaya diaspora outside their ancestral home of Kerala, India.

 

[SyroMalankara]

To each his own opinion but this community is said to have been based off the Old testament whereas practices such as endogamy were permitted. What you must understand is, it is only an ethnic community practice. Knanaya is an ethnic community, our church is the Syro Malabar Church. Anyone can follow Syro Malabar Catholicism, endogamy only plays apart in when in consideration to the Knanaya Community itself. In this way the Church and the community are split. The Knanaya Community and our religion are completely different topics.

It is divine teaching that under our God we must spread our religion and invite all to our Church, I completely agree with you on that but no where does it say that we must invite all into our man-made organizations. In example, the Knanaya Archdiocese has always fervently evangelized for the Syro Malabar Church and established many missionary societies but in order to be considered apart of the Knanaya Community, one must be born of both Knanaya parents and follow endogamy. Once again a split between “church” and “community”. Anyone can worship in a Syro Malabar Church and become Syro Malabar Catholic but no one can become a member of the Knanaya Community besides being conceived as one. Following up on this, the Knanaya Community is a man-made organization and the Syro Malabar Church is divine. Yes, some may dub us a “church” because of numerous ecclesiastical structures named “Knanaya Catholic” but once again in factual view it is only a community.

In a simpler example, lets say you created a group called the “red hat group” which only allowed members with red hats. According to our faith it does not say you have to invite everyone to the red hat group, it is your personal choice who gets to be in this group because you created it and it is a man-mad organization. What our divine teaching does say is that you have to invite and accept everyone into the Catholic Faith because the Catholic Faith is based on God’s word and there can be no alteration to that. So lets say one day the authorities from the Catholic Church tell you how to run and organize the red hat group which you created and has nothing to do with them. Does that make any sense? This is exactly what is happening to the Knanaya diaspora outside their ancestral home of Kerala, India.

Good analogy. But why would a group like that need it’s own bishop, it’s own parishes, it’s own anything? They can associate as a social “red hats” club on their own, while still part of the wider Church.

 

[Thomas48]

Good analogy. But why would a group like that need it’s own bishop, it’s own parishes, it’s own anything? They can associate as a social “red hats” club on their own, while still part of the wider Church.

Ah yes, and that my friend is where the problems start. This idea of separateness plays part on the idea of social context. The Knanaya and the other St. Thomas Christians from the earliest mentions had a great animosity towards each other to the point where they could not perceive the idea of sharing the same churches/priests/etc. The Portuguese record in the 1600’s that they would often see the children of Knai Thoma and the children of St. Thomas involved in regular street brawls and fights over numerous affairs. At one instance the Portuguese had attempted to force the native Christians to share churches which in the end resulted in bloodshed. No where in history do we know why this feud started but only that it was very relevant.

Often the Knanaya get blamed for our endogamous nature but it was relevant on both sides, St. Thomas Christian and Knanaya. The Knanaya would not accept a marriage with the Thomas Christians and vice versa. In the 1900’s when one part of the Kerala East Syriac Catholics (Syro Malabar) received their own diocese and bishops, why should the other side Knanaya Catholics not receive the same? It was evident that the Syro Malabar Community at the time would not accept Knanaya into their diocese.There is even evidence that when Knanaya Mar Mathai Makil served as bishop of Changancherry over Syro Malabar Catholics, that they chased him out of the city, just for being Knanaya. My grandmother had told me stories that in her youth she went to a majority Syro Malabar Catholic school and they would often ridicule her by calling her such things like “low caste, low caste, and charam-ketti (ash-tier)”. This was not only prevalent among children but also fervently prevalent among adult members of both communities. Endogamy was not so much noted in the earlier Syro Malabar community because of their large numbers. It was easily noticed among the Knanaya community because they were so few.

So what grew in social context from the creation of the separate diocese’ was the Syro Malabar Catholics gaining in number and becoming the hierarchy of the Church, while the Knanaya side was suppressed. It seems to me as a common case of majority over minority. What we must realize is that both the Syro Malabar ( St. Thomas Christian Catholics) and Knanaya Catholics were equal ethno-religious communities who did not get along but in the end the majority side (Syro Malabar) was given leadership of the Church and the minority side (Knanaya) suppressed.

Furthermore to answer your question, both of these communities can be seen as a “red hat group” and a “blue hat group” that were members of the same religious tradition. The only difference we see is that one of these groups became the majority and thus the authority among of the religious tradition.

 

[Jack007]

Ah yes, and that my friend is where the problems start. This idea of separateness plays part on the idea of social context. The Knanaya and the other St. Thomas Christians from the earliest mentions had a great animosity towards each other to the point where they could not perceive the idea of sharing the same churches/priests/etc. The Portuguese record in the 1600’s that they would often see the children of Knai Thoma and the children of St. Thomas involved in regular street brawls and fights over numerous affairs. At one instance the Portuguese had attempted to force the native Christians to share churches which in the end resulted in bloodshed. No where in history do we know why this feud started but only that it was very relevant.

Often the Knanaya get blamed for our endogamous nature but it was relevant on both sides, St. Thomas Christian and Knanaya. The Knanaya would not accept a marriage with the Thomas Christians and vice versa. In the 1900’s when one part of the Kerala East Syriac Catholics (Syro Malabar) received their own diocese and bishops, why should the other side Knanaya Catholics not receive the same? It was evident that the Syro Malabar Community at the time would not accept Knanaya into their diocese.There is even evidence that when Knanaya Mar Mathai Makil served as bishop of Changancherry over Syro Malabar Catholics, that they chased him out of the city, just for being Knanaya. My grandmother had told me stories that in her youth she went to a majority Syro Malabar Catholic school and they would often ridicule her by calling her such things like “low caste, low caste, and charam-ketti (ash-tier)”. This was not only prevalent among children but also fervently prevalent among adult members of both communities. Endogamy was not so much noted in the earlier Syro Malabar community because of their large numbers. It was easily noticed among the Knanaya community because they were so few.

So what grew in social context from the creation of the separate diocese’ was the Syro Malabar Catholics gaining in number and becoming the hierarchy of the Church, while the Knanaya side was suppressed. It seems to me as a common case of majority over minority. What we must realize is that both the Syro Malabar ( St. Thomas Christian Catholics) and Knanaya Catholics were equal ethno-religious communities who did not get along but in the end the majority side (Syro Malabar) was given leadership of the Church and the minority side (Knanaya) suppressed.

Furthermore to answer your question, both of these communities can be seen as a “red hat group” and a “blue hat group” that were members of the same religious tradition. The only difference we see is that one of these groups became the majority and thus the authority among of the religious tradition.

what exactly are the differences between the knanaya and st thomas christians?
i mean,culturally,not historically?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Has any of that occurred in the US? Have Knanaya Catholics been unwelcome in the larger Church? I’ve seen the opposite - both Malankara and Malabar priests going out of their way to be welcoming to Knanaya faithful.

An example, the late Aboon Mor Dioscorus is Knanaya, he is remembered every year in the Malankara Syriac Catholic Church and commemorated honorably, by everyone. He was our bishop as much as yours.