Syro Malabar Church Phoenix Arizona

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Another additional source of big income for churches has been in areas ( Kottayam-Pathanamthitta districts of erstwhile Travancore tops this list due to their early, great advantage in English education; it is not by accident that one rarely finds nuns or priests from Thrissur District overseas) which have sent out priests and nuns for work overseas. When educational institutions and hospitals are built with the funding, it serves as a continous source of additional income for the diocese/archdiocese.
Why dont you talk about something which you are aware ? You are a senseless travellor.
In Kottayam, Allapuzha districts ( Catholics doesnot have much say in Pathanamthitta) most of the old churches has propertie which are being donated by local families.

Lets take any of the old Churches, for example Athirampuzha Church- like the other old churhces this church has shopping complex with many dozen rooms which were donated to the church by locals. There is always revenue. Even churches built in 1970’s has plantations.

Regrading education institutions- If you are aware why dont you give a list with year of founding of syrian catholic schools and colleges in Kottayam and Allapuzha disctircts. If you cant provide a proper one no need to waste time on this. These are available. This is beyond your understading. I dont need some website links and numerous repetition posts like you always do about this.
 
There are very few people in the Church- i mean clergy who understands the Church, others are "false brothern’’ who shamelessly lavish and benefit on the autonomy and identity a plethora of Kathanars gained over the last 400 years. It is quite natural that they have not heard about many things. How could they be ?

Will full misrepresentation and manipulation does not come under definition of free speech in United States. If in doubt you may please check with an attorney.

You know absolutely nothing about historical research neither secular nor Thomas history. Do you know that in Syro Malabar Church hundreds of seminars were organized by Oriental Pontifical Institute Vadavathoor and Liturgical Research Center, Kakkanad and different eparchies ? Get your self at least acquainted with some basics before launching propaganda.
LukaThomas, I forget that somewhere in Kerala there has been a “tradition” of church litigations. I don’t happen to belong to that group you know. All my relatives have had to pay for services rendered by the church and none of our priests have taken anyone to court to claim any church property.
 
Why don’t you find out to which Syro MALANKARA church pjk123, LukaThomas, and BAVA faction church MathewJoseph belongs? Why do they give themselves as Syro Malabar Catholics when it doesn’t take rocket science to notice they are not?
Dear mariamkutty
I am only a 24 year old college boy. I do not have any responsible positions in the church as I think you have. I am a syro malabar catholic from kottayam district. One thing is that I read Sathyadeepam and Sunday shalom regularly. I will give you evidences. After attending the conclave that elected Pope Benedict 16 may be in 2006, Major arch bishop made that statement. His article was in sathyadeepam. You check sathyadeepam 1 or 2 month from the conclave. Then major arch bishop of Syro malankara church. He was elected as major arch bishop and an interview was published in Sunday shalom just after his election. It was a full supplement. You check those shaloms. As I think you are a nun, and you have not noticed these articles is a shame to the entire syro malabar church. I am only a young boy and I noticed these points. But the thing is that scholars, fathers all hesitate to answer me on those quotes. When I ask a father to give me some explanation on that, they hesitate or they just change the subject. Remember, truth is always truth.

Again for your notice I give you those quotes and make a good research.
I will give the viewpoints of Varkey Cardinal Vithayathil, Major Arch bishop of Syro malabar catholic church,
Baselios Mor Cleemis, Major Arch bishop of syro malankara catholic church,
Archbishop Mar Joseph Powathil, strong man of Syro malabar catholic church.
What I deliver are exact statements from these bishops at the top level.

Varkey Cardinal Vithayathil says, "What is the authority of Rome? On what basis Rome is appointing bishops all over the world? From where it has got alll these powers? In the first centuries, there was a dispute between Rome and Antioch, who is head and superior."

**Baselios Mor Cleemis says, "According to Antiochean tradition, Patriarch of Antioch is the head of the overall Christian church and successor of Apostle Peter. His name is Ignatius. The second in rank is Catholicos. His name is Baselius. Mar Joseph Powathil presided over my election as major arch bishop.

Mar Joseph Powathil adviced me to be sincere and faithful to Antiochean tradition and Antiochean liturgy always."**

Dear mariamkutty,
These are words from top leaders of our church. So why we oppose adopting latin customs is that we are basically a syriac church and the most important point is that we have doubt on the Rome’s claim as St Peter’s see. Or it is not a doubt. From the words of 3 eminent persons above, what you get? Whatever be the case, we must give testimony to truth. We must be upholders of truth. I need not give explanation why Portuguese burned all the ancient syriac documents present in our church. Not only these, I will give you a statement from a latin cardinal.

The great American Archbishop James Cardinal Gibbons said, "Peter went to Antioch and established the church there and served as the bishop there. What is the authority of Rome?"
Code:
                  See Mariamkutty, the statements given are from the heads of Syro malabar catholic church and syro malankara catholic church. Any way they are 100 fold knowledgeful than you. So first you make a reaearch on these and give me an answer.
Dear mariamkutty
Please give an explanation to the above. They are very important since our 2 major arch bishops, the heads of our church in Kerala have produced those statements. Were they joking? Please mariamkutty, please answer.
 
Which court is going to deal with the propaganda that has been touted for years that all St Thomas Christians left the communion with RCC during Coonan Cross Oath in the seventeenth century, which took place in the centre of Portuguese settlement in Mattancherry, Cochin?

Who is going to restore the truth about the fictional theory of mass migrations from Thrissur to South Kerala?
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I have earlier mentioned, many documents are available and these are not any propaganda. The issue is with the mind set you have which makes you being dumb to history.
 
LukaThomas, you have been writing malicious posts about Syro Malabar Catholic nuns and priests from Thrissur and Ernakulam archdiocese on this forum. It is they who should be launching a campaign against the likes of you for writing such lies. “Street fights of priests and nuns” ! Could you provide reliable information about the supposed street fights between nuns and priests?
I have even videos of these marches and has some controversial materials published by priests from Ernakulam and Thrishur which are nothing but stupid ramblings. I doubt your intentions and you may even be some one who has some hatred to Syro Malabar. I hope the following is enough to satisfy your appetite.

I think you have no idea about how some hundred priests and nuns from Ernakulam and Thrishur diocese have harmed us in the past. They were not any majority but people say they had the support of Bishops of Thrishur and Ernakulam and that’s why such a small section was able to do this. There was not any one street fight. It was spread over a decade. There were more than a dozen fake organizations. One of them was called Bharath Liberation Force. You can refer any of the following newspapers for some of the major activities.

Article heading- Newspaper name- Place of Publication and Date in that order.

**1. Fresh Campaign against Chaldeanisation- Indian Express- Kochi- 23 August 1991
  1. Court Notice to Church heads- Indian Express- Kochi- 19 September 1991 ( This was only a sample. Later on the spokesmen of Ernakulam faction- Pulikunnel ( yes the famous Pulikinnel ) filed suit against Tellichery and Changanasherry Arch Bishops).
  2. The Liturgical meeting was disturbed- Mangalam-14 March 1993
  3. About hundred priests against the Syond- Mathrubhumi- 25 November 1993
  4. Syond March against Chaldenisation- Mathrubhumi- 31 October 1996
  5. The group for memorandum blocked the Bishops- Mathrubhumi- 11 June 1997
  6. Priests warn of disobeying the Bishops- The Hindu- 18 June 1997
  7. Priests March to Synod Venue- Indian Express-18 June 1997
  8. Incidents at Synod condemned by Bishops- The Hindu- 21 June 1997
  9. Archbishops concern over move to set fire to cross and pastoral letters- Indian Express- 16 April 1998
  10. Setting fire to the sign of Cross unfortunate- Vithayathil- Mathrubhumi- 16 April 1998
  11. Church rebels reject package on liturgy- The Hindu -16 Novemeber 1998**
Street March, Burning of the Cross, Burning of Pastoral letters, Disturbing the Synod meetings and destroying the furniture ( like typical Communist students union march), Court cases against Bishops were just some of the very small activities conducted with the help of trade unions and anti catholics.

The list above is incomplete. I have only added few. I think you must appreciate my patience in responding to you. There is a reason why general public says, the Ernakulam and Thrishur priests are useless gunda’s.

If you are looking for a more academic write up about these activities, I would recommend you to check catalogues of few church publications. These activities does not happen generally in other churches and there are academic studies about this.
 
LukaThomas, in depth study of church litigations in Kerala should provide an important clue to what you are posting here. Syro Malabar Catholics in Ernakulam and Thrissur districts were not involved in any church litigations. No Syro Malabar catholic nun or priest could have been part of recent Chaldenizations. Why don’t you mention the REAL new church group that is involved in it starting in the nineteenth century?
 
The list above is incomplete. I have only added few. I think you must appreciate my patience in responding to you. There is a reason why general public says, the Ernakulam and Thrishur priests are useless gunda’s.
LukaThomas, does that statement about Thrissur and Ernakulam priests count as malicious propaganda?

I appreciate your patience in responding to me. I would have appreciated it even more, if you had provided all the material relating to church litigations in Kerala, which is (should be) in the public domain.
 
I have earlier mentioned, many documents are available and these are not any propaganda. The issue is with the mind set you have which makes you being dumb to history.
What we need are authentic, primary historical secular documents of secular Portuguese settlements and Dutch VOC takeover and the movement of peoples in Coromondel and Malabar Coast in that period 1500 - 1825. Any group that tries to sell the theory that Indian locals in those days of colonial trade were caught up with the intricacies of church doctrines needs to explain their real motives. All the search for Patriarchs in the Middle East started only after the British Resident summoned CMS and LMS missionaries to Travancore in 1806, and joint training for Christians in their seminary in Kottayam for 20 years and long after the establishment of CMS English college in Kottayam in 1817.

Synod of Diamper involving the ancient Christian community happened in Cochin in 1599, and it did not happen because the local Christian community asked for it.
 
LukaThomas, in depth study of church litigations in Kerala should provide an important clue to what you are posting here. Syro Malabar Catholics in Ernakulam and Thrissur districts were not involved in any church litigations. No Syro Malabar catholic nun or priest could have been part of recent Chaldenizations. Why don’t you mention the REAL new church group that is involved in it starting in the nineteenth century?
I was just talking about incidents happened in Syro Malabar Chruch from 1992 to 1999. It was a rampage unleashed by some of the pudden-head priests of Ernakulam and Thrishur. Why dont you please refer some of the newspapers when you get a chance and then share your opinions about this.

As you know, it is useless to discuss without knowing about it. These newspapers articles will only give you an idea about the viloence ie, the burning,march, destruction etc. In order to gain understading about the issues, i recommend you academic studies as none of these journalist are expert on issues. Journalists are only good in reporting of incidents such as burning,march, destruction and for better understanding of the issues you may need to use academic studies.
 
LukaThomas, does that statement about Thrissur and Ernakulam priests count as malicious propaganda?

I appreciate your patience in responding to me. I would have appreciated it even more, if you had provided all the material relating to church litigations in Kerala, which is (should be) in the public domain.
How could it be ? If mentioning of the past activities of some section of Ernakulam and Thrishur priests are counted as malicious propaganda, they better could not have done that !!

People are liable and accountable for their actions and they cant get away from their responsibility.
 
LukaThomas, I’m interested in the details of court cases involving church properties. That is vital information. Don’t forget Europeans who came to Kerala since 1500 were colonial traders and priests who accompanied them. By the time of church property litigations European colonial traders had been in Malabar Coast (Kerala) for nearly three and a half centuries. The Portuguese and Dutch had already left, each having had their power and influence for over one and half centuries each.

European missionaries who came independently of colonialists need to be identified and their areas of work, and their list of churches and number of converts need to be identified as well.

In the movement of peoples TO Thrissur when Shakthan Thampuran moved his residence to Thrissur and built the town, it is vital to identify those that came from Cochin and from Dutch settlements near Cochin.
 
Although Dutch captured Cochin in 1663 (it is supposedly because a ruler from a small principality south of Cochin wanted to take over the reigns, and sought the help of Dutch), they had been present in the neighbouring areas long before that.

It is worthwhile to note that the first schism took place right in the middle of Portuguese centre at Mattancherry, Cochin, just before the Dutch captured Cochin. And no search for Middle Eastern Patriarchs were made by any group when the Dutch and their Dutch Calvinist clergy, were in Malabar Coast, and only long after the Synod (Padiola) of Mavelikkara in 1836, by which time CMS missionaries had offered joint education in their seminary for twenty years and had a fully functioning English college in Kottayam since 1817, which had British principals until 1942!
 
These back and forths are getting out of hand.

Luka - Please provide the entire article from His Beatitude Catholic Moran Mor Baselios Cleemis regarding the different Sees of the Apostle St. Peter. I think that quote is being taken out of context. His Beatitude is ENTIRELY loyal to the Holy Father!

I believe the Major Archbishop of the Syro-Malabar Church is also being misquoted.

Mariamkutty - NO ONE claims that the ENTIRE St. Thomas Community separated at Coonan Cross. In fact, even the minority (those who later came into union with Antioch) recognizes that most people stayed in Communion with Rome, and even among those who separated, many returned to union with Rome soon after.

Still - there is a large minority who went into union with the non-Catholic Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. That many people decided to move south toward Pathanamthitta and Kottayam cannot legitimately be disputed - the REASON is debatable. Some left for religious reasons, many for financial/economic reasons - others left for both these reasons and others for numerous other reasons. What does this oral tradition have to do with anything you’re stating?
 
It is worthwhile to note that the first schism took place right in the middle of Portuguese centre at Mattancherry, Cochin, just before the Dutch captured Cochin. And no search for Middle Eastern Patriarchs were made by any group when the Dutch and their Dutch Calvinist clergy, were in Malabar Coast, and only long after the Synod (Padiola) of Mavelikkara in 1836, by which time CMS missionaries had offered joint education in their seminary for twenty years and had a fully functioning English college in Kottayam since 1817, which had British principals until 1942!
??? How/why did the Synod of Mavelikkara take place?? The Synod was held by those already in communion with the Patriarch of Antioch (Syriac Orthodox) - Mar Gregorios had already been in Kerala and joined most of the people who remained separated from Rome, into union with the non-Catholic Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. Mavelikara simply reinforced that the non-Catholic Christians were NOT protestants and wanted nothing to do with CMS heresies.
 
In 1795, after the Dutch was ousted and British took over the reins in Cochin and Travancore, as princely states, British Resident of Travancore was requested by non-Catholic Christians in Kottayam formed in 1754 (upper Travancore revenue division) to send British missionaries to teach them. Thus in 1806 Rev Buchanan arrived. Based on his report to the British, CMS and LMS missionaries were allowed to come to Travancore. CMS missionaries were based in upper Travancore (in Kottayam) and LMS missionaries in lower Travancore.

Non-Catholic Christians were first taught English and then jointly trained in their seminary for 20 years from 1816 -1836. In 1817 CMS missionaries set up CMS College which offered free English education for forty years, after which a very low nominal fee was charged.

On Mr Mathen after being trained at CMS seminary, then went on to Madras Christian College in Madras (now Chennai) set up by Scottish missionaries to complete secular college education. He and his friend, another Mathen on returning parted ways. One Mathen joined the Anglican Communion (MCC education under Scottish missionaries) and the other decided not to join the Anglican Communion. He decided to swear allegiance to the Patriarch of Antioch instead. Thus the Synod was convened at Mavelikkara in 1936 and in the decrees (Padiola) the group under that particular Mathen accepted the Patriarch of Antioch as head. Up until this point all liturgy used to be in Malayalam. He then went to Antioch to be consecrated as bishop, spent more than a year overseas, familiarising himself with the language and liturgy in the Middle East. When he returned, the large faction which joined him became the BAVA (Patriarch) faction. The faction that refused to accept the Patriarch became the Metran (bishop) faction.

From then on began the church litigation between these two factions for church properties. One priest from the BAVA faction and two priests from the Metran faction would leave and seek communion with Rome only several decades later, in 1930, to form the Syro Malankara Church in 1932.

The first litigation had been immediately after the Synod of Mavelikkara in 1936 to get access to the joint CMS seminary.

At some point Patriarchs from the Middle East began to appear in Kerala, supporting the group which had sworn allegiance to them.

The Anglican communion had being doing some missionary work in the Middle East. They provided Syriac Liturgy to the group that joined the Anglican communion, known as Mar Thoma Church. Two Patriarchs of two churches they helped form in Iraq and Mosul were consecrated in Anglican churches called Mar Thoma Church.

So one can reasonably assume that non-Catholics on Malabar Coast had probably been taken care of by Dutch Calvinists until the arrival of CMS missionaries, which explains why they asked for the help of CMS missionaries first. But CMS missionaries were low Anglican, an amalgamations of several European churches, who had come together to do missionary work, while the Scottish missionaries who started the Christian College Madras belonged to Church of Scotland which is the “high” Scottish version of Church of England.
 
What are your sources??

You are providing tons and tons of statements as fact, but none of them are supported… It would take a while to go through everything you wrote line by line… here’s my attempt:
In 1795, after the Dutch was ousted and British took over the reins in Cochin and Travancore, as princely states, British Resident of Travancore was requested by non-Catholic Christians in Kottayam formed in 1754 (upper Travancore revenue division) to send British missionaries to teach them. Thus in 1806 Rev Buchanan arrived. Based on his report to the British, CMS and LMS missionaries were allowed to come to Travancore. CMS missionaries were based in upper Travancore (in Kottayam) and LMS missionaries in lower Travancore.
Non-Catholic missionaries were first taught English and then jointly trained in their seminary for 20 years from 1816 -1836. In 1817 CMS missionaries set up CMS College which offered free English education for forty years, after which a very low nominal fee was charged.
Here you provide what seems to be factual historical statements, but complete unsupported and no way to verify or address anything.
On Mr Mathen after being trained at CMS seminary, then went on to Madras Christian College in Madras (now Chennai) set up by Scottish missionaries to complete secular college education. He and his friend, another Mathen on returning parted ways. One Mathen joined the Anglican Communion (MCC education under Scottish missionaries) and the other decided not to join the Anglican Communion. He decided to swear allegiance to the Patriarch of Antioch instead.
Not sure what this story has to do with anything? Who are these “Mathens” and what do they have to do with the previous or the following statements?
Thus the Synod was convened at Mavelikkara in 1936 and in the decrees (Padiola) the group under that particular Mathen accepted the Patriarch of Antioch as head.
Didn’t you earlier point out that Mavelikara was convened in the 1830s? What is this new Synod 100yrs later?
Up until this point all liturgy used to be in Malayalam.
I object. Which liturgy? at what point in time??? Malayalam is a “recent” language, the Liturgy would have to have been in some derivative of Tamil, if a vernacular was used at all… but all historical sources state that the Liturgy was Syriac - Eastern Syriac before the schism, Western Syriac for the non-Catholic Christians after the Schism (except for the Chaldean-Syrians in Trichur, who retained Eastern Syriac).
He then went to Antioch to be consecrated as bishop, spent more than a year overseas, familiarising himself with the language and liturgy in the Middle East.
Who?
When he returned, the large faction which joined him became the BAVA (Patriarch) faction. The faction that refused to accept the Patriarch became the Metran (bishop) faction.
No idea what you are referring to. There are no names, dates, places, or anything mentioned here.
From then on began the church litigation between these two factions. One priest from the BAVA faction and two priests from the Metran faction would leave and seek communion with Rome only several decades later, in 1930, to form the Syro Malankara Church in 1932.
How did 1930 come after 1936?
The first litigation had been immediately after the Synod of Mavelikkara in 1936 to gain access to the joint seminary.
Again, not sure what you are referring to…
At some point Patriarchs from the Middle East began to appear in Kerala, supporting the group which had sworn allegiance to them.
So… your claim is that a group can’t claim allegiance to a Patriarch if he personally hasn’t arrived in Kerala?? When did the Holy Father first come to Kerala? Did the Catholic Syrians not have loyalty to the Pope since he hadn’t “appeared” in Kerala?
The Anglican communion had being doing some missionary work in the Middle East. They provided Syriac Liturgy to the group that joined the Anglican communion, known as Mar Thoma Church.
Your claim is that the English create the Syriac liturgy and presented it to the Marthoma Church (protestant)? Then why do the Malankara Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syro-Malankara Catholic use (West) Syriac in the Liturgy - none of these are in communion with Anglicans or Marthoma (protestant)? - as well as the Syro-Malabar and Chaldean-Syrian Churches (East Syriac)??
Two Patriarchs of two churches they helped form in Iraq and Mosul were consecrated in Anglican churches called Mar Thoma Church.
What? No idea what you are referring to.
So one can reasonably assume that non-Catholics on Malabar Coast had probably been taken care of by Dutch Calvinists until the arrival of CMS missionaries, which explains why they asked for the help of CMS missionaries first.
There is no Dutch calvinist Church in Kerala, the closest thing to that is the (Anglican) CSI Church - which is union of Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, and other protestants.
But CMS missionaries were low Anglican, an amalgamations of several European churches, who had come together to do missionary work, while the Scottish missionaries who started the Christian College Madras belonged to Church of Scotland which is the “high” Scottish version of Church of England.
There is no “high Scottish” Church of England - the Church of Scotland is Presbyterian (Calvinist), and they are lower church than most CofE low churchers.
 
??? How/why did the Synod of Mavelikkara take place?? The Synod was held by those already in communion with the Patriarch of Antioch (Syriac Orthodox) - Mar Gregorios had already been in Kerala and joined most of the people who remained separated from Rome, into union with the non-Catholic Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. Mavelikara simply reinforced that the non-Catholic Christians were NOT protestants and wanted nothing to do with CMS heresies.
For twenty years 1816-1836, non-Catholic Christians had been trained in CMS seminaries. It was only after a couple of them completed studies at Madras Christian College run by Scottish Missionaries of 'high" Church of Scotland was the decision made to split with CMS missionaries. The search for Middle Eastern Patriarchs began at this point.

Synod of Mulanthuruthy (Ernakulam) would take place only in 1876. One group in Kottayam would join the church established by the bishop elected after Synod of Mulanthuruthy. They are part of the Metran faction. A Middle East connection was created by that group after the Synod at Mulanthuruthy as well.
 
Do you mind doing a favor Mariamkutty !

Can you stick to one topic. We can appease your appetite. Please stick to one topic. If you want to talk about Non Catholics after the Coonan Cross Oath, please stick to that and don’t move back and forth on topics. Also please try not to make affirmative statements as you are completely wrong.
 
For twenty years 1816-1836, non-Catholic Christians had been trained in CMS seminaries. It was only after a couple of them completed studies at Madras Christian College run by Scottish Missionaries of 'high" Church of Scotland was the decision made to split with CMS missionaries. The search for Middle Eastern Patriarchs began at this point.
?? These non-Catholics had a bishop ordained for them in the 1670s by Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem (Syriac Orthodox).
Synod of Mulanthuruthy (Ernakulam) would take place only in 1876. One group in Kottayam would join the church established by the bishop elected after Synod of Mulanthuruthy. They are part of the Metran faction.
The Bava/Metran dispute has to do with jurisdiction. Which means there was already a connection to Antioch prior to this - the dispute is over how far his authority extends. Both factions commemorate the Syriac Orthodox patriarch in their Holy Qurbono.
 
1806 - Arrival of Rev Buchanan at request of British Resident, in response to request of non-Catholic Christians in Kottayam.

Followed by arrival of CMS missionaries - Benjamin Bailey, Joseph Fenn, Henry Baker, Norton etc.

1816 - 1836 - Joint training in CMS seminary. Non-Catholics were a single group at this point.

Two non-Catholics complete education in MCC, Madras

1836 - Synod of Mavellikara, decision to split with CMS; lawsuit to claim seminary; decision to accept Patriarch of Antioch by one group

1837 - One priest leaves to Antioch, is consecrated bishop, works in the ME for over a year and returns to form the BAVA faction.

1836 - Mar Thoma Church is formed by one group. They join Anglican communion.

Litigations between BAVA and Metran factions for church property begins.

1876 - Synod at Mulanthuruthy (Ernakulam District); Padiola sets down their history

After 1838, when Portuguese Padroado was suppressed, one priest from Kottayam goes to ME and by a long winded process Assyrian-Chaldean Church separate from the Chaldean Church in communion with RCC is formed.

Litigations in Thrissur by this group for access to churches begin. They gain access to 29 Latin Rite Catholic Churches of Portuguese Padroado which by this time was suppressed. Chaldean Syrian Church is born which also has two factions within it - Bava and Metran. They would unite.

1930 - One priest from BAVA faction and two priests from Metran faction seek union with Rome.

1932 - Syro Malankara Church formed with help from Carmelites of Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide.
 
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