Syro Malabar Church Phoenix Arizona

[lukathomas]

Although Dutch captured Cochin in 1663

It is worthwhile to note that the first schism took place right in the middle of Portuguese centre at Mattancherry, Cochin, just before the Dutch captured Cochin. And no search for Middle Eastern Patriarchs were made by any group when the Dutch and their Dutch Calvinist clergy, were in Malabar Coast, and only long after the Synod (Padiola) of Mavelikkara in 1836, by which time CMS missionaries had offered joint education in their seminary for twenty years and had a fully functioning English college in Kottayam since 1817, which had British principals until 1942!

Mariamkutty, even before the Coonan Cross Oath, the Archdeacon has written to Eastern Patriarchs. The evidence for this is from Catholic sources. Archbishop Gracia in his letters to Rome before the Coonan Cross Oath accuses that Archdeacon was in contact with other Eastern Patriarchs.

Why do you think the Coonan Cross Oath happened ? Who was Ahathalla ? Have you heard about Ahathalla !!!

There are even letters of the Bishop Mar Gregorious of Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch who came in 1665 AD published by both Catholic and Non Catholic sources. From where are you learning all these ?

 

[Mariamkutty]

Non-Catholics had no one from ME in their picture. Hence help was sought from CMS missionaries in 1806 when British took control of Cochin and Travancore.

Ahaltalla is supposed to have been a pseudo bishop who appeared in 1665 and conveniently got killed by Portuguese, even though Portuguese had been ousted in 1663. After that non-Catholics found no reason to seek anyone from ME until Dutch were ousted.

Remember these were times when Malabar Coast was controlled by colonial traders. They were based in Cochin until British took control and king of Cochin was a mere puppet under Portuguese and Dutch.

 

[lukathomas]

As usual Mariamkutty’s intention is not to discuss but throw mud out of her ignorance. Here is the timeline among the Malankara Syriac Orthodox after the Split, after Coonan Cross Oath.

Mar Gregorios, the first Syriac Orthodox Bishop comes to Malabar 1665 AD

Mar Gregorios and Mar Thoma I died 1670-3 AD

Second Syriac Orthodox mission, Mar Basil ( Catholicos) , Mar John came to Malabar 1685 AD

Mar Simon of Adana, a Chaldean Bishop arrives in Malabar 1700 AD

Mar Thomas IV tries to unite with Rome 1704 AD

Mar Thomas IV died 1728 AD

Death of Church of East Bishop Mar Gabriel 1730-1 AD

Mar John, a Syriac Orthodox Bishop comes to Malabar 1741 AD

Mar John, a Chaldean Bishop comes to Malabar 1747 AD

Mar Thomas V tries to unite with Rome 1748 AD

Mar John, the Syriac Orthodox Bishop who came in 1741 was deported 1751 AD

Third Syriac Orthodox mission, Mar Basil ( Catholicos) , Mar Gregory and
Mar John to Malabar 1751 AD

Mar Thomas V died 1765 AD

Mar Thomas VI succeeded Mar Thomas V 1765 AD

Mar Thomas VI was consecrated as Mar Dionysius I at Niranam by
Syriac Orthodox Bishops Mar Gregory and Mar John 1772 AD

The Anjoorians ( Thozhiur- known today as Malabar Independent
Syrian Church) formed by the expulsion of Mar Cyril by Mar Dionysius I
from Travancore and Cochin State 1772 AD

Cochin is captured by the British 1795 AD

Mar Dionysios I becomes Catholic for six months 1799 AD

 

[lukathomas]

Non-Catholics had no one from ME in their picture. Hence help was sought from CMS missionaries in 1806 when British took control of Cochin and Travancore.

Ahaltalla is supposed to have been a pseudo bishop who appeared in 1665 and conveniently got killed by Portuguese, even though Portuguese had been ousted in 1663. After that non-Catholics found no reason to seek anyone from ME until Dutch were ousted.

These are not your Thrishur stories which has no evidences. The history of Malankara Syriac Orthodox is much documented and there are evidences. You may please take a look at the list above. What is your problem you dumb fellow ?

The letter of Mar Gregorious who came in 1665 AD to some of the Churches in Malabar is published even by Catholics.

Then Ahatalla was not killed by Portuguese. That was only a rumer. Even much details about him is known now.

 

[SyroMalankara]

1806 - Arrival of Rev Buchanan at request of British Resident, in response to request of non-Catholic Christians in Kottayam.

What are your sources?? I contend that the British (name removed by moderator)ut themselves into the non-Catholic Christian community to 1) support a group which was non-Catholic and not supported by their Portuguese rivals 2) convert them to protestantism

Followed by arrival of CMS missionaries - Benjamin Bailey, Joseph Fenn, Henry Baker, Norton etc.

1816 - 1836 - Joint training in CMS seminary. Non-Catholics were a single group at this point.

Not possible. The Chaldean-Syrian in Trichur and the non-Catholic Christians in union with the Syriac Orthodox patriarch were not a single group.

Two non-Catholics complete education in MCC, Madras

Who?

1836 - Synod of Mavellikara, decision to split with CMS; lawsuit to claim seminary; decision to accept Patriarch of Antioch by one group

You earlier stated that there was only ONE group. The Bishop who was in charge of the Synod is Mar Dionyosious Metropolitan, he did not file any lawsuit for the CMS seminary. The Synod decided to sever all ties with CMS.

1837 - One priest leaves to Antioch, is consecrated bishop, works in the ME for over a year and returns to form the BAVA faction.

Who?

1836 - Mar Thoma Church is formed by one group. They join Anglican communion.

The Marthoma Church isn’t officially formed until 1889/1890… you are mixing up two separate disputes - the one between the Bava/Metran groups and the one between the Orthodox/protestant-marthoma faction… these are two separate incidents…

Litigations begin.

1876 - Synod at Mulanthuruthy (Ernakulam District); Padiola sets down their history

After 1838, when Portuguese Padroado was suppressed, one priest from Kottayam goes to ME and by a long winded process Assyrian-Chaldean Church separate from the Chaldean Church in communion with RCC is formed.

Who?

Litigations in Thrissur by this group for access to churches begin. They gain access to 29 Latin Rite Catholic Churches of Portuguese Padroado which by this time was suppressed. Chaldean Syrian Church is born which also has two factions within it - Bava and Metran. They would unite.

Now you are adding an additional group into the story… no wonder your story is confused…

1930 - One priest from BAVA faction and two priests from Metran faction seek union with Rome.

?? Actually, Mar Ivanios is a BISHOP…

1932 - Syro Malankara Church formed with help from Carmelites of Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide.

?? Why don’t you address one thing at time?? It is very difficult trying to have a conversation about 500yrs of controversial and disputed history when you try to summarize it all in 5 sentences mixing up facts and personal opinion, stories and realities, no names, dates or places… and then ending it as if it is all equal in authority and fact…

 

[Mariamkutty]

LukaThomas, I stand to gain nothing by throwing mud at any group.

If there was such an illustrious group of Methrans and BAVAs among non-Catholics all along, seeking help from British CMS missionaries and joint training in their seminary for twenty years, starting with association in 1806 would not have been necessary.

 

[SyroMalankara]

LukaThomas, I stand to gain nothing by throwing mud at any group.

If there was such an illustrious group of Methrans and BAVAs among non-Catholics all along, seeking help from British CMS missionaries and joint training in their seminary for twenty years, starting with association in 1806 would not have been necessary.

They didn’t seek help at all, the British offered both money for the seminary and teachers, with the offer of non-interference – why would the Metropolitan turn them away??

The Holy Father allows the non-Catholic Assyrians and Anglicans to come to seminaries in Rome – does that mean they are all worthless imbeciles? I don’t understand your reasoning… anyhow that is all your unsupported baseless opinion.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Here is a translation of the official text of the 1836 Mavelikara Synod:

**Mavelikara Padiyola **

In the name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost the one true God, Padiyola (agreement) drawn up in the year of our Lord 1836 corresponding 5th Makarom 1011 at the church dedicated to the Virgin Mother of Lord at Mavelikara, between Mar Dionyosious Metropolitan of the Jacobite Syrian Church of Malankarai subject to the supremacy of Mar Ignatius Patriarch, the Father of Fathers, and the Chief of Chiefs ruling the throne of St. Peter of Antioch, the mother of all Churches and his successor Mar Kurilos, and the vicars, priests and parishioners of Ankamali and other churches under the charge of the said Metropolitan

That whereas an interview held at Kottayam between the Rt. Rev. Daniel, Lord Bishop of Calcutta and the Metropolitan, in Vrischikam last, it was proposed by the former that certain changes should be introduced in the Liturgies and ordinances of our Syrian Church and whereas it was stated in reply that a conference of all the churches would be held on the subject and its determination made known, we the Jacobite Syrians being subject to the supremacy of the Patriarch of Antioch and observing as we do the Liturgies and ordinance instituted by the prelates sent under his command, cannot deviate from such Liturgies and ordinances and maintain a discipline contrary thereto, and a man of one persuasion being not authorized to preach and admonish in the church of another following a different persuasion without the permission of the respective Patriarchs, we cannot permit the same to be done against us, and our churches being built by the aid of the prelates sent under the order of the Patriarch and on the wishes of the people of each parish and ornamented by their money, and as the accounts of the annual income according to our churches under the head of voluntary contributions offerings etc, are as required by the rules furnished to our bishops, as is the custom in the churches of Antioch as well as in the churches of this and other countries following different persuasions we are without the power, and feel disinclined, to follow and cause to be followed a different procedure from the above

That the Honorable Colonel Macaulay having taken a loan of 3000 star pagodas from (Valia) great Mar Dionysius who died in 983, gave him a bond for the same. The interest on the amount having fallen in arrears, Mar Dionysius Metropolitan who died in 992 made a representation to Col. Munro and received the interest with which he (Dionysius) built the Seminary at Kottayam. Having also collected at the Seminary the money brought by the prelates that had come here from Antioch and the property left by the late Bishops of the Pakalomattom family, Mar Dionysius laid out a portion of this together with the donation made by HIS HIGHNESS THE MAHARAJA on behalf of the Syrian Christian Youths, on Kanom and therewith met the expense of their education. The Reverend the missionaries who have come down to Kottayam, in their profuse benevolence taught the youth at the Seminary, English and other languages, protected our children like loving fathers, caused books to be printed for the benefit of all classes, rendered all necessary help in maintaining the prevailing discipline of the Syrian Church caused the annual interest due, to be drawn on the receipt of the Metropolitan, had superintendence over the affairs of the Seminary and caused ordination to be made agreeable to the request of the people and the power of the prelates. While affairs were being thus conducted the Missionaries took to managing the Seminary without consulting the Metropolitan, themselves expended the interest money drawn annually on the receipt of the Metropolitan, dispersed the deacons instructed in the Seminary, conducted affairs in opposition to the discipline of the church and created dissensions amongst us, all of which have occasioned much sorrow and vexation. For this reason we do (would) not follow any faith or teaching other than the Orthodox faith of the Jacobite Syrian Christians, to the end, that we may obtain salvation through the prayers of ever happy, holy, and ever-blessed Mother of God, the redresser of all complaints and through the prayers of all Saints. Witness, Father, Son and Holy Ghost

Amen

 

[Mariamkutty]

Although the Portguese had their main centre in Cochin, they had trade bases in several places along Malabar Coast - Kannur (Cannonore) in the north, Kodungallur (Cranganore) and Cochin, Pallipuram and Kollam (Quilon) south of Cochin.

The Dutch conquered Kollam a couple of years before they attacked Cochin. When the Dutch ousted Portuguese they automatically gained control of all Portuguese held areas. A trade treaty with transfer of all possessions was signed. Dutch then expanded on what they had conquered from Portuguese.

Cash crops introduced into Malabar Coast during colonial trade rule were coffee(Portuguese) tea (Dutch) and rubber (British). Kottayam remained the greatest exporter of rubber in the British Empire. It is still the greatest exporter of rubber in India. It was plantation of rubber that led to immense wealth in the shortest time.

 

[lukathomas]

LukaThomas, I stand to gain nothing by throwing mud at any group.

If there was such an illustrious group of Methrans and BAVAs among non-Catholics all along, seeking help from British CMS missionaries and joint training in their seminary for twenty years, starting with association in 1806 would not have been necessary.

Like any other missionaries the Anglican also painted them with a noble aim. The real face was exposed only late. The assocaition did not start in 1806. It happend only from 1816 and continued only for 20 years. The major reason is the influence of Mar Philoxenos of Anjoor - Thozhiyur Church.

The then Malankra Orthodox Syriac Bishop Mar Dionysius III was consecrated by Mar Philoxenos of Anjoor. Mar Dionysius III was from the non- Pakalomattam line ( ie, non- Archdecon family line). The influnece Mar Philoxenos of Anjoor had in Mar Dionysius III came to the benefit of Anglicans. But then in the intial years Anglicans were very noble missionaires.

Malankra Orthodox Syriac Church had Malpan education system for priests. A joint seminary doesnot mean that all studied there. The number of students who studied in joint seminary are insignifact.

You jump between topics Mariamkutty. If you know nothing you should not start. What we discuss are not unknown areas in the history of Malankra Syriac Orthodox. There are no grey areas in these !

 

[Mariamkutty]

The first litigation was in 1836 for control of seminary from CMS.

The second litigation was for Vatti Panam. Vatti = Interest, Panam = Money.

The British gained control of Travancore only in 1795, so how could any bishop or priest have lent money to a British Resident on interest? For what?

There were other litigations concerning church property after the Vatti Panam case. The matter had gone right up to the Supreme Court of India after independence.

It takes an insider to explain the details of these lawsuits. To an outsider, it is sufficient to know that there were several lawsuits by non-Catholics and those who broke away from Portguese Padroado for church property

 

[lukathomas]

It takes an insider to explain the details of these lawsuits. To an outsider, it is sufficient to know that there were several lawsuits by non-Catholics and those who broke away from Portguese Padroado for church property

Not necessarly, out siders are also aware of this. In fact anyone who has interest can get the details. But these lawsuits are not something which was only among Malankara Syriac Orthodox. The Catholic section- the then Syro Chaldean rite- todays Syro Malabar Church also had plenty of litigations and fought for property with intimidation, threats and court cases. Many best examples are there in Thrishur.

Try to learn the history of Malankra Syriac Orthodox with genuie interest. You should learn and understand that there are no apologetics in history. IT IS FACT. NOTHING ELSE.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Abraham Malpan was one of the non-Catholic priests who had been trained in the CMS seminary. It was his nephew who would convene the Synod of Mavelikara in 1836, in order to declare allegiance to Patriarch in Antioch and sever ties with CMS missionaries and gain access to the seminary at which they had been jointly trained by the CMS.

CMS and LMS and Basel Mission WERE noble missionaries who came as part of a European Protestant movement. They were financially supported from Europe. Their generosity is shown in the way they set up the first English college in India to educate locals, something neither Portuguese nor Dutch had done, and offered free education for all for over forty years, and after that only a small nominal fee. They translated the Bible and opened a printing press, to distribute literature. They took immense pains to educate the people in Travancore, which led to a mind boggling advancement in the shortest time. Luckily they had a king who supported the missionaries and joined in the venture to educate people of Travancore. Setting up of parish schools in every church they started was their original idea. Catholics followed suit much later, even then were not so dedicated to teaching as Protestants were. Basel Mission also set up educational and vocational institutions and distributed religious literature and Bible translations.

Jesuits likewise had been tireless in their efforts at conversions and had travelled the length of India trying to gain access to all levels of Hindu society until their society was banned. St Francis Xavier was known for mass conversions. He lived in Cochin for three years among others. He has written several letters to his superior from Cochin.

Franciscans were the first set of missionaries who came with Portguese. They had a strong presence in Kollam (Quilon) in the south.

Other missionaries were Augustinians and Dominicans.

The last set of missionaries to come were the Carmelites as part of Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide. They wielded the greatest political power since their arrival among Catholics. But they came to Malabar Coast 157 years after the arrival of Portuguese Padroado.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The first litigation was in 1836 for control of seminary from CMS.

The second litigation was for Vatti Panam. Vatti = Interest, Panam = Money.

The British gained control of Travancore only in 1795, so how could any bishop or priest have lent money to a British Resident on interest? For what?

Col. Macauley was the Political Resident appointed by the British, he was in a corruption dispute with the Commercial Resident of Anjengo - something having to do with Pepper production and shortages… one can imagine that would need funds…

books.google.com/books?id=qbNuyHswr1cC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0

There were other litigations concerning church property after the Vatti Panam case. The matter had gone right up to the Supreme Court of India after independence.
It takes an insider to explain the details of these lawsuits. To an outsider, it is sufficient to know that there were several lawsuits by non-Catholics and those who broke away from Portguese Padroado for church property

Why is it sufficient to know that - what is gained by making a statement with no relevance, no dates, no names, no context? Other than more confusion?

 

[lukathomas]

Abraham Malpan was one of the non-Catholic priests who had been trained in the CMS seminary. It was his nephew who would convene the Synod of Mavelikara in 1836, in order to declare allegiance to Patriarch in Antioch and sever ties with CMS missionaries and gain access to the seminary at which they had been jointly trained by the CMS.

From where did you get this ? For what purpose are you doing mixing up !!

CMS and LMS and Basel Mission WERE noble missionaries who came as part of a European Protestant movement. They took immense pains to educate the people in Travancore, which led to a mind boggling advancement in the shortest time. Luckily they had a king who supported the missionaries and joined in the venture to educate people of Travancore.

If they were so noble, there would not have been any break up. Anyway they did contribute in some areas. That does not mean that they did something exemplarary. You better have to learn before barking !

 

[lukathomas]

Setting up of parish schools in every church they started was their original idea. Catholics followed suit much later, even then were not so dedicated to teaching as Protestants were.

I see what you are aiming at. You dumb fool- the parish schools was started by local Syriac Catholic leaders in Travancore. You are so ugly that you are so deep with hatred. Do you have any idea about the pains taken by Syro Malabar local priests to start these schools ? Have you heard about the exhortion of Mani Kathanar to sell the crusifx to start schools. You people in Thrishur concentrated on fraud Chitti Currey Companies and will take long time to learn about even Thrishur. Anyways, history is not barking. You will learn that when you empty your hatred.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Abraham Malpan was one of the non-Catholic priests who had been trained in the CMS seminary. It was his nephew who would convene the Synod of Mavelikara in 1836, in order to declare allegiance to Patriarch in Antioch and sever ties with CMS missionaries and gain access to the seminary at which they had been jointly trained by the CMS.

Mathews Mar Athanasius, the nephew of Abraham Malpan wasn’t consecrated until February 17, 1842… how could he convene the Mavelikara synod in 1836?

CMS and LMS and Basel Mission WERE noble missionaries who came as part of a European Protestant movement. They were financially supported from Europe. Their generosity is shown in the way they set up the first English college in India to educate locals, something neither Portuguese nor Dutch had done, and offered free education for all for over forty years, and after that only a small nominal fee. They translated the Bible and opened a printing press, to distribute literature. They took immense pains to educate the people in Travancore, which led to a mind boggling advancement in the shortest time. Luckily they had a king who supported the missionaries and joined in the venture to educate people of Travancore. Setting up of parish schools in every church they started was their original idea. Catholics followed suit much later, even then were not so dedicated to teaching as Protestants were. Basel Mission also set up educational and vocational institutions and distributed religious literature and Bible translations.

?? Basel Mission’s first school was started in 1848… The first school of the Catholic Church in Kerala, a Sanskrit School, was started in Mannanam in 1846. Later in 1885, the first English School of the Syro-Malabar Church also was started by the Congregation at Mannanam. Similarly, in 1846, he first Printing Press in the Syro-Malabar Church was started at Mannanam. Deepika, the first News Paper of Kerala, started in Mannanam in 1887.

 

[Mariamkutty]

If they were so noble, there would not have been any break up. Anyway they did contribute in some areas. That does not mean that they did something exemplarary. You better have to learn before barking !

The break up in 1836, involved a lawsuit to get the seminary. CMS had trained priests of non-Catholics for twenty years. If the seminary had belonged to non-Catholics they would not need to file a suit to get it. It had been merely set up for them by the British Resident with the permission of the king of Travancore.

The break up came only after two priests who had first trained in CMS seminary then completed secular education in Madras Christian College, Madras run by “high” Scottish missionaries.

Joint training by CMS missionaries for twenty years produced many batches of priests for non-Catholics. They were then in a position to train their own, especially after two of them got British education at a top college in Madras. CMS missionaries offered free education at CMS college for forty years. They set up a press, they translated the Bible, they offered Syriac as a language at their college where anyone could learn it. They set up schools etc etc.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Mathews Mar Athanasius, the nephew of Abraham Malpan wasn’t consecrated until February 17, 1842… how could he convene the Mavelikara synod in 1836?

The consecration as bishop happened after he returned from the Middle East. The Synod of Mavelikkara had been about breaking with CMS, and deciding to swear allegiance to Patriarch in Antioch. The trip to Antioch was made only after first swearing allegiance in Mavelikkara.

PS: Please do not quote from the Wikipedia.

 

[lukathomas]

Kuravilanagdu English Medium School was started in 1894. Palai School was also started in same period. These were started by local Syrian Catholic leaders not any missionaries.Mariamkutty’s dirt talk about Travancore was to white wash the chitty kurry training they gave to the folks in Thrishur.

What the heck you know about CMS involvement among Malankara Syriac Orthodox other than mixing up everything Mariamkutty ? You paint CMS as god send who did many wonders. If that was the case why they became a tiny minority after 1836 with all the mighty British power at their disposal ? Even in 1900’s Malankara Syriac Orthodox had Malpan education for seminarians. You will take long time to learn history.

Also your attitude to put dirt based on your chitty kurry culture is not good.