Syro Malabar Church Phoenix Arizona

[SyroMalankara]

The break up in 1836, involved a lawsuit to get the seminary. CMS had trained priests of non-Catholics for twenty years. If the seminary had belonged to non-Catholics they would not need to file a suit to get it. It had been merely set up for them by the British Resident with the permission of the king of Travancore.

You are confused… The seminary case you are referring to has to do with the following:

During the time of Thomas Mar Athanasius Metropolitan, Joseph Mar Dionysius demanded the possession of the seminary and the control of assets of the Church. Mar Dionysius and his supporters filed a case on March 4, 1879.

This was not between the Patriarchal faction and the Catholicos faction. This lawsuit was between the protestant followers of Abraham Malpan and those who were following the original Malankara Syriac tradition.

Mar Dionysius won that case easily, since Thomas Mar Athanasius was excommunicated and not a member of the Malankara Church.

The break up came only after two priests who had first trained in CMS seminary then completed secular education in Madras Christian College, Madras run by “high” Scottish missionaries.

AGAIN - This dispute is different that the one you originally mentioned.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The consecration as bishop happened after he returned from the Middle East. The Synod of Mavelikkara had been about breaking with CMS, and deciding to swear allegiance to Patriarch in Antioch. The trip to Antioch was made only after first swearing allegiance in Mavelikkara.

PS: Please do not quote from the Wikipedia.

HOW can he CONVENE the synod WITHOUT BEING A BISHOP FIRST!!!

and why not quote from Wikipedia when it is ACCURATE?! You, on the otherhand, quote from NO ONE - just your faulty memory and screwed up logic!

 

[Mariamkutty]

Fr Kuriakose Elias OF Chavara (he used to be known simply as Fr Kuriakose and he was known to be from Chavara; it is a very recent addition to add Chavara to his name) was trained as a Latin Rite priest. The Carmelites helped him start a new Carmelite Order for locals, CMI. From then on everyone who trained in his order came to be known as Syrian Rite priests. He was the first one to start schools and other institutions following in the steps of British CMS and LMS missionaries.

The first school in Thrissur was started only in 1889, after separate Vicariate of Thrissur was formed for Syrian Catholics under Portuguese Padroado.

 

[Mariamkutty]

and why not quote from Wikipedia when it is ACCURATE?! You, on the otherhand, quote from NO ONE - just your faulty memory and screwed up logic!

You say Wikipedia is ACCURATE? O well…

 

[SyroMalankara]

Fr Kuriakose Elias OF Chavara (he used to be known simply as Fr Kuriakose and he was known to be from Chavara; it is a very recent addition to add Chavara to his name) was trained as a Latin Rite priest. The Carmelites helped him start a new Carmelite Order for locals, CMI. From then on everyone who trained in his order came to be known as Syrian Rite priests. He was the first one to start schools and other institutions following in the steps of British CMS and LMS missionaries.

The first school in Thrissur was started only in 1889, after separate Vicariate of Thrissur was formed for Syrian Catholics under Portuguese Padroado.

Are you purposely being obtuse? First you stated that the Basel Mission was the first to start a school - when refuted, instead of correcting yourself, you through another “factoid” into the mix… infact you haven’t addressed anything that has been mentioned from the last 50 posts…

How can a bishop who was consecrated 6 years after a Synod, have convened that synod??! You are very confused. Please re-read the history before making any of these ludicrous claims!

 

[lukathomas]

The consecration as bishop happened after he returned from the Middle East. The Synod of Mavelikkara had been about breaking with CMS, and deciding to swear allegiance to Patriarch in Antioch. The trip to Antioch was made only after first swearing allegiance in Mavelikkara.

PS: Please do not quote from the Wikipedia.

Please try to learn before you make statements ! Do you know what you are talking ?

How can you talk about things which you dont know ? Dont you have any common sense ?

 

[Mariamkutty]

You are confused… The seminary case you are referring to has to do with the following:

During the time of Thomas Mar Athanasius Metropolitan, Joseph Mar Dionysius demanded the possession of the seminary and the control of assets of the Church. Mar Dionysius and his supporters filed a case on March 4, 1879.

This was not between the Patriarchal faction and the Catholicos faction. This lawsuit was between the protestant followers of Abraham Malpan and those who were following the original Malankara Syriac tradition.

Mar Dionysius won that case easily, since Thomas Mar Athanasius was excommunicated and not a member of the Malankara Church.

AGAIN - This dispute is different that the one you originally mentioned.

There were several church lawsuits among the different factions of non-Catholics which spanned nearly a century. However the first one WAS in 1836 and it was to get the CMS seminary. The second lawsuit was known as Vatti Panam case and it was about some money matter involving interest etc. All the others were about church properties.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Are you purposely being obtuse? First you stated that the Basel Mission was the first to start a school - when refuted, instead of correcting yourself, you through another “factoid” into the mix… infact you haven’t addressed anything that has been mentioned from the last 50 posts…

How can a bishop who was consecrated 6 years after a Synod, have convened that synod??! You are very confused. Please re-read the history before making any of these ludicrous claims!

I did NOT state that Basel mission started the first school. I stated clearly that CMS and LMS missionaries did. I mentioned that even Basel Mission were involved in starting schools and vocational training centres. And that Catholics followed only much later.

 

[SyroMalankara]

You say Wikipedia is ACCURATE? O well…

Why don’t you tell me then, Mariamkutty, when was he ordained bishop? Cite a “proper” source.

 

[lukathomas]

I did NOT state that Basel mission started the first school. I stated clearly that CMS and LMS missionaries did. I mentioned that even Basel Mission were involved in starting schools and vocational training centres. And that Catholics followed only much later.

You dont know what you are talking ! By the way, do you know who started Chitty Kurry founds and other financial fraud establishments using the name of Church first in Kerala.

This is the difference. The local leaders in Mannam, Kuravilangadu, Palai etc started schools and in Thrishur folks started Chitty Kurry fund using the name of Church. It is really funny that you are so dumb to repeatedly talk about this.

 

[SyroMalankara]

There were several church lawsuits among the different factions of non-Catholics which spanned nearly a century. However the first one WAS in 1836 and it was to get the CMS seminary. The second lawsuit was known as Vatti Panam case and it was about some money matter involving interest etc. All the others were about church properties.

The CMS Seminary was abandoned! READ THE FOLLOWING (not from your enemy Wikipedia):

Starting of the Seminary at Parumala

Since the ‘Old Seminary’ at Kottayam, started by his predecessor, Mor Divanasios II in 1815, came under the influence of the reformist bishop Palakunnath Mathews Mar Athanasius, it became a necessity for the Syrian Church to start another theological institution in order to give proper education for the clergy. The protestant influence was then much greater in southern parts of Malankara. So Mor Divanasios was very particular to start a Seminary there, and after a series of enquiries, he decided to buy some land at Parumala. But the landowner, Mathen of Arikupurath family, was kind enough to donate the land for the cause. Thus started the beginning of the famous Parumala Seminary. The Seminary started functioning soon (in A.D.1872) and ‘Ramban Geevarghese’ (Parumala Thirumeni) was appointed the first tutor as per the will of Mor Divanasios Joseph.

Besides Parumala Seminary, 17 other Churches were established all around Malankara under the guidance of Mor Divanasios during the first ten years of him becoming a Metropolitan. The 17 Churches were located at Karuvatta, Katturu, Ayriroor, Puthenkavu, Oonakkur, Chelattu, Kanayattunirappu, Mazhuvanoor, Nellikkal, Marattil, Kundra, Kodachanadu, Vengoor, Manjapra, Allapra, Thiruvankulam and Chalassery. All the Churches in Southern Malankara were built, because of the adverse decision pronounced through a Circular by the Travancore government, which forced the ancient Suryani community to leave their respective Churches. With the arrival of Patriarch in AD 1875, the adverse situation that existed in the Malankara Church changed for the better and gradually, Mor Divanasios was able to recoup almost all the prominent churches. The old Seminary at Kottayam was recovered from the reformists through a royal court decision in 1889. This was a major victory for the Syriac community and more particularly for Mor Divanasios. This seminary started by his grand uncle, Mor Divanasios II in 1818, was under the influence of reformist bishops for some decades.

‘Mar Dionysius (M.D) Seminary English medium High School’ at Kottayam was founded in January 1893 by Mor Divanasios V on the land donated by one of his British friends, ‘Dora Saipu’. (This school is named after Mor Divanasios V.) Until then, the Syriac community had the opportunity for English education only in the schools run by the western missionaries. As a result of their western influence, those who studied in these schools gradually drifted from the main stream Church. These westerners besides glorifying their faith, always ill-treated those from the Suryani community by emphasizing the faith of Apostolic Churches as superficial (from the autobiography of E M Philipose). It was in this context, to safe guard the interest of ancient Suryani Christian community, Mor Divanasios decided to start English medium schools by the Suryani Church.

 

[Mariamkutty]

How can a bishop who was consecrated 6 years after a Synod, have convened that synod??! You are very confused. Please re-read the history before making any of these ludicrous claims!

I wrote that it was at the Synod of Mavelikkara 1836 that a decision was taken to break with CMS, file a lawsuit to get the seminary, and swore allegiance to Patriarch in Antioch. After that one priest who had a degree from Madras Christian College, went to the Middle East and was consecrated there, and returned after working in a parish there and familiarizing himself with the Middle Eastern church and Liturgy etc.

When he returned he automatically assumed charge as bishop. He had been consecrated in the Middle East and worked there.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I wrote that it was at the Synod of Mavelikkara 1836 that a decision was taken to break with CMS, file a lawsuit to get the seminary, and swore allegiance to Patriarch in Antioch. After that one priest who had a degree from Madras Christian College, went to the Middle East and was consecrated there, and returned after working in a parish there and familiarizing himself with the Middle Eastern church and Liturgy etc.

I don’t know why you bother hiding what can easily be read in the previous post,

This is word for word what you wrote:

Abraham Malpan was one of the non-Catholic priests who had been trained in the CMS seminary. It was his nephew who would convene the Synod of Mavelikara in 1836, in order to declare allegiance to Patriarch in Antioch and sever ties with CMS missionaries and gain access to the seminary at which they had been jointly trained by the CMS.

In fact, it was his nephew who was AGAINST the Patriarch in Antioch and FOR the CMS missionaries. He was subsequently excommunicated by the Patriarch and the Synod and Mar Dionysius was consecrated as Metropolitan. Mathews Mar Athanasius wasn’t even a priest when he went to Antioch with falsified papers pretending that the Malankara faithful had selected him to be bishop - he was only a subdeacon.

 

[lukathomas]

Fr Kuriakose Elias OF Chavara (he used to be known simply as Fr Kuriakose and he was known to be from Chavara; it is a very recent addition to add Chavara to his name) was trained as a Latin Rite priest. The Carmelites helped him start a new Carmelite Order for locals, CMI. From then on everyone who trained in his order came to be known as Syrian Rite priests. He was the first one to start schools and other institutions following in the steps of British CMS and LMS missionaries…

The Congregation of Carmelites of Mary Immaculate (CMI) is the first indigenous religious congregation in the Catholic Church of India. Fr. Thomas Palackal, Fr. Thomas Porukara and Fr. Kuriakose Chavara of the Syro-Malabar Church of apostolic origin, who felt that “a lot of good had not been done due to the absence of a Thapasu Bhavanam (House of Discipline) and a Darsana Veedu (House of Vision)”, had the challenging vision of providing spiritual leadership and fostering unity and growth in the Kerala Church. With the permission of Bishop Maurelius Stabilini, the then Vicar Apostolic of Verapoly, they founded a religious house at Mannanam on 11 May 1831.

cmi.in/information_list.php?action=search&category=id&txt=3&by_colms=col

Even in 1930’s the Syro Malabar Church was using the Syriac text transalated by Blessed Kuriakose Elias Chavara. What can one say to the ramblings of this idiot Mariamkutty. Has she got any idea about the leadership Father Chavara provided to the Church in crisis time ?

 

[Mariamkutty]

The CMS Seminary was abandoned!

The lawsuit to get the CMS seminary filed in 1836 by non-Catholics who had been jointly trained for twenty years by CMS, was won by non-Catholics.

Sure the CMS missionaries then abandoned it. They lost the case after all.

It could have also been abandoned by the group among the non-Catholics who had less power. Only one of the two factions either the BAVA or Metran faction could have gained access to the seminary because both groups filed lawsuits against each other for access to until then joint church property, one of which was the seminary.

I can vaguely recall that the Metran faction won the lawsuits. You could correct me on that score. (See I am willing to be corrected if it makes sense to be corrected! I can’t promise you however that I will not need to cross check the details, and run it through my logic filter, since there is too much fiction floating around.)

List the different lawsuits,

who vs whom,
year filed,
for what,
who won
when.

 

[Mariamkutty]

In fact, it was his nephew who was AGAINST the Patriarch in Antioch and FOR the CMS missionaries. He was subsequently excommunicated by the Patriarch and the Synod and Mar Dionysius was consecrated as Metropolitan. Mathews Mar Athanasius wasn’t even a priest when he went to Antioch with falsified papers pretending that the Malankara faithful had selected him to be bishop - he was only a subdeacon.

The two factions among non-Catholics came into existence precisely because some was willing to swear allegiance to the Patriarch in Antioch and the other was not. It stands to reason that the priest who went to Antioch was not against allegiance to the Patriarch, right? On his return he assumed duties as bishop for the BAVA faction.

There was one faction who joined the Anglican Communion (high Anglican), Mar Thoma Church, which is not quite the same as CMS missionaries (low Anglican).

 

[lukathomas]

Can you also Mariamkutty, list the different lawsuits in Thrishur area,

who vs whom,
year filed,
for what,
who won
when.

There is an advice, you should not make affirmative statements about what you dont know.

 

[lukathomas]

The two factions among non-Catholics came into existence precisely because some was willing to swear allegiance to the Patriarch in Antioch and the other was not. It stands to reason that the priest who went to Antioch was not against allegiance to the Patriarch, right? On his return he assumed duties as bishop for the BAVA faction.

No comments ! Let her learn this her own. This explains what is her basics in her barking about Anglicans and CMS,LMS and Non Catholics

There was one faction who joined the Anglican Communion (high Anglican), Mar Thoma Church, which is not quite the same as CMS missionaries (low Anglican).

You have a long way to go. First learn basics and then make statements.

 

[Mariamkutty]

The Congregation of Carmelites of Mary Immaculate (CMI) is the first indigenous religious congregation in the Catholic Church of India. Fr. Thomas Palackal, Fr. Thomas Porukara and Fr. Kuriakose Chavara of the Syro-Malabar Church of apostolic origin, who felt that “a lot of good had not been done due to the absence of a Thapasu Bhavanam (House of Discipline) and a Darsana Veedu (House of Vision)”, had the challenging vision of providing spiritual leadership and fostering unity and growth in the Kerala Church. With the permission of Bishop Maurelius Stabilini, the then Vicar Apostolic of Verapoly, they founded a religious house at Mannanam on 11 May 1831.

cmi.in/information_list.php?action=search&category=id&txt=3&by_colms=col

Even in 1930’s the Syro Malabar Church was using the Syriac text transalated by Blessed Kuriakose Elias Chavara. What can one say to the ramblings of this idiot Mariamkutty. Has she got any idea about the leadership Father Chavara provided to the Church in crisis time ?

The founder of CMI, known to older locals in Thrissur as Fr Kuriakose Elias from Chavara, was helped by the Carmelites to found his order. He had been trained as Latin Rite priest. His order was allowed then came to be affiliated with Syrian Rite. Same with Franciscan Clarist Congregation (FCC) started as a Latin Rite by a Jesuit priest, the first bishop of 1887 Kottayam Vicariate and eight third Order Franciscan women.

Why did Fr Kuriakose have to translate anything into Syriac when Syrian Catholics had their own Syriac Liturgy.

LukaThomas, please do not confuse the happenings of Kottayam/Travancore with Thrissur and Ernakulam. Remember the Synod of Diamper of 1599? That was in the kingdom of Cochin and a Syriac Liturgy used by the ancient Christian community existed at that time.

When vicariate of Kottayam was formed in 1887, the non-Catholics who joined were called Knanayi Christians. They followed a different Syriac Liturgy to the one used by Syrian Catholics of vicariate of Thrissur. They continued to use what they had always used.

I can imagine there was a crisis in Kottayam on discovering that the vicariate of Kottayam had a different Syriac Liturgy to the vicariate of Thrissur and Fr Kuriakose would have been called to solve the crisis by doing translations into Syriac.

 

[lukathomas]

He had been trained as Latin Rite priest. His order was allowed then came to be affiliated with Syrian Rite.

Then who was the first Bishop in Thrishur ? Dont be so stupid.

Why did Fr Kuriakose have to translate anything into Syriac when Syrian Catholics had their own Syriac Liturgy.

Have you heard about Mar Rokkos ? You are so dumb and stupid that it is waste of time to respond to you.

LukaThomas, please do not confuse the happenings of Kottayam/Travancore with Thrissur and Ernakulam. Remember the Synod of Diamper of 1599? That was in the kingdom of Cochin and a Syriac Liturgy used by the ancient Christian community existed at that time

What has Kingdom of Cochin to do with Synod of Diamper. Synod was called by the Archdeacon. You better learn than wasting others time with you fraud Thrishur propaganda.

When vicariate of Kottayam was formed in 1887, the non-Catholics who joined were called Knanayi Christians. They followed a different Syriac Liturgy to the one used by Syrian Catholics of vicariate of Thrissur. They continued to use what they had always used.

I had earlier explained about the Charam Ketty party. Knanaya is a new name by Charam Ketty Party adopted in 1992. Nothing to say more. I have only one question is this an average Thrishur clergy understanding about the Church ?

I can imagine there was a crisis in Kottayam on discovering that the vicariate of Kottayam had a different Syriac Liturgy to the vicariate of Thrissur and Fr Kuriakose would have been called to solve the crisis by doing translations into Syriac.

Excellent and for that Rome Canonised him as Blessed ! Who made the discovery ? Do you have any idea ?

Talking to some lower level sunday school students in Travancore area about Church history is better than talking to Thrishur clergy. They know better than Thrishur Clergy !!!