Syro Malabar Church Phoenix Arizona

[Mariamkutty]

You dont know what you are talking ! By the way, do you know who started Chitty Kurry founds and other financial fraud establishments using the name of Church first in Kerala.

This is the difference. The local leaders in Mannam, Kuravilangadu, Palai etc started schools and in Thrishur folks started Chitty Kurry fund using the name of Church. It is really funny that you are so dumb to repeatedly talk about this.

LukaThomas, I have mentioned in several posts that when the king of Cochin, known as Shakthan Thampuran, came to build Thrissur town in the late eighteenth century, many people from Cochin came to set up the newly created commercial center. The businessmen were not locals. Locals lived in villages, and the new town had been created by clearing a teak forest, hence there had been no displacement of peoples. So I am not an expert on what businessmen from Cochin did in Thrissur town. Cochin had been a colonial trade centre from 1500 after all, and by the time people from there moved to the new Thrissur town, business establishments in Cochin were over two hundred years old.

My folks lived in villages in Thrissur area. For us those who lived in the commercial area of Thrissur and around it, involved in businesses in the new town, were like foreigners.

 

[lukathomas]

My folks lived in villages in Thrissur area. For us those who lived in the commercial area of Thrissur and around it, involved in businesses in the new town, were like foreigners.

Yes, Thrishur was a cluster of Islands and you guys didnot know how to swim. Because of this there was no contact with anyone else. All this happened when Mahabali was ruling Thrishur.

End of the story…

I know my answers before i asked you that question. This is documented history and this has happened from documented period. Even today Thrishur is the heaven for fraud Chitty Kurry funds and has most of the fund operators there who are members of Syro Malabar Church. No wonder why they started two medical colleges recently.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Then who was the first Bishop in Thrishur ? Dont be so stupid. Have you heard about Mar Rokkos ? You are so dumb and stupid that it is waste of time to respond to you.

What has Kingdom of Cochin to do with Synod of Diamper. Synod was called by the Archdeacon. You better learn than wasting others time with you fraud Thrishur propaganda.

I had earlier explained about the Charam Ketty party. Knanaya is a new name by Charam Ketty Party adopted in 1992. Nothing to say more. I have only one question is this an average Thrishur clergy understanding about the Church ?

Excellent and for that Rome Canonised him as Blessed ! Who made the discovery ? Do you have any idea ?

Talking to some lower level sunday school students in Travancore area about Church history is better than talking to Thrishur clergy. They know better than Thrishur Clergy !!!

Ancient Christians north of Cochin were not involved in any schism at any time. Pretending no ancient Christians existed north of Cochin won’t get you anywhere. Kodungallur, the seat of Assyro-Chaldean bishops who came to Malabar Coast until 1597, happens to be in Thrissur District, NOT in Kottayam or Pathanamthitta. Didn’t you guys invent a story of mass migrations to cover that up?

Ah the Portguese Padroado Latin Rite schisms. It started at Kottayam you know. They call it the “mission station.” Priests were trained in British Protestant seminaries, and then consecrated in an Anglican Church in Baghdad. You better read up the details of how a separate church was formed. The Pope would not allow the schismatic trained in British Protestant institution to be consecrated in the Chaldean Catholic Church, because they were already in communion with Rome. That is why he had to go to Mosul in Turkey. A couple of them were consecrated in the Anglican Church. Anyway that church has more to do with Anglicans than the original Chaldean Church.

British was at the height of their world power when all that happened. The move was also supported by Lutherans, all in the name of rebellion against Rome.

No need for anyone in Thrissur to know what Fr Kuriakose did in Travancore, because it does not have anything to do with the Vicariate of Thrissur. I’m sure you don’t tell those Sunday school children about Synod of Diamper and the ancient traditions of Thrissurians who never ever came to Travancore to look up their customs and imitate them.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Yes, Thrishur was a cluster of Islands and you guys didnot know how to swim. Because of this there was no contact with anyone else. All this happened when Mahabali was ruling Thrishur.

End of the story…

I know my answers before i asked you that question. This is documented history and this has happened from documented period. Even today Thrishur is the heaven for fraud Chitty Kurry funds and has most of the fund operators there who are members of Syro Malabar Church. No wonder why they started two medical colleges recently.

You guys from Travancore try to create the impression villages in Thrissur District were located in the deserts of Sahara, that people had to flee to the south to survive or something, and that there were no human beings in Thrissur and people were starving to death until migrations from Cochin took place at the time of building the new town and a commercial centre. The Sahara Desert theory is required to justify mass migrations, right? But mass migrations of only certain people who want to be migrated peoples, in order to borrow their history and identity. Very Machiavellian indeed. But you can’t have it both ways, one group who absolutely want to be migrated peoples TO Thrissur and another who want to be migrated peoples FROM Thrissur. But secular history punches some big holes in the fiction. Over two hundred years a lot of integration has taken place but not all have forgotten the history of migrations.

 

[lukathomas]

Ancient Christians north of Cochin were not involved in any schism at any time. Pretending no ancient Christians existed north of Cochin won’t get you anywhere.

Yes, they lived at the time of Mahabali and there are no records.We should understand that. But the Bishop of Cochin has some interesting statistics which they have published during the 1923 period. He was claiming that there was no Saint Thomas Christians in Cochin Kingdom. May be he might not be aware about your ancient Mahabali Christians of Thrishur. !

Ah the Portguese Padroado Latin Rite schisms. It started at Kottayam you know. They call it the “mission station.” Priests were trained in British Protestant seminaries, and then consecrated in an Anglican Church in Baghdad. You better read up the details of how a separate church was formed. The Pope would not allow the schismatic trained in British Protestant institution to be consecrated in the Chaldean Catholic Church, because they were already in communion with Rome. That is why he had to go to Mosul in Turkey. A couple of them were consecrated in the Anglican Church. Anyway that church has more to do with Anglicans than the original Chaldean Church.

True ! Only Thrishur folks can tell this story. No one else has this much creativity and stupidity to be so dumb to speak about 19th Century when there are hundrads of documents. The only priest who was not trained with Anglicans was the Vicar of Ollur Church and thats why only he stayed in Catholic Church.

No need for anyone in Thrissur to know what Fr Kuriakose did in Travancore, because it does not have anything to do with the Vicariate of Thrissur. I’m sure you don’t tell those Sunday school children about Synod of Diamper and the ancient traditions of Thrissurians who never ever came to Travancore to look up their customs and imitate them.

Yess, Thrishur folks only need to know about what Anglo Indian Bishop did after the Vicariate was created. They should also need to know that Ernakulam Angamaly diocese was not created in 1923 with a hierarchy. They should know how to make claims over other near by dioceses. Synod of Diamper had 80% or may be 90% representation from Travancore. I dont know if Thrishur folks learnt swimming by that time to attend the Syond. Unfortunately there are not many Churches in the attendee list of Synod of Diamper. May be everyone might not have learnt swimming.

By the way, i did learn in Sunday School about Mar Mellus Elias and if you havent heard about Mar Thomas Rokkos also.

 

[Mariamkutty]

True ! Only Thrishur folks can tell this story. No one else has this much creativity and stupidity to be so dumb to speak about 19th Century when there are hundrads of documents. The only priest who was not trained with Anglicans was the Vicar of Ollur Church and thats why only he stayed in Catholic Church.

Yess, Thrishur folks only need to know about what Anglo Indian Bishop did after the Vicariate was created. They should also need to know that Ernakulam Angamaly diocese was not created in 1923 with a hierarchy. They should know how to make claims over other near by dioceses. Synod of Diamper had 80% or may be 90% representation from Travancore. I dont know if Thrishur folks learnt swimming by that time to attend the Syond. Unfortunately there are not many Churches in the attendee list of Synod of Diamper. May be everyone might not have learnt swimming.

Vicariate of Kottayam got a French Jesuit as bishop in 1887, and Vicariate of Thrissur got the son of an English couple who was born in British India as its bishop. Does that somehow make him inferior to a French Jesuit?

Ernakulam and Changanasserry diocese were not created until 1896. Eleven ancient churches of vicariate of Thrissur were taken to be part of Ernakulam diocese. I listed them on the other thread.

Veropoly was a Latin Rite archdiocese in Cochin after the arrival of Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide. It had nothing to do with what became the vicariate of Thrissur, which was a Syrian Rite diocese under Portuguese Padroado.

After the arrival of Carmelites in 1657, they focussed all their attention on Travancore because the See of Cranganore for Syrian Catholics was under Portuguese Padroado.

 

[lukathomas]

You guys from Travancore try to create the impression villages in Thrissur District were located in the deserts of Sahara, that people had to flee to the south to survive or something, and that there were no human beings in Thrissur and people were starving to death until migrations from Cochin took place at the time of building the new town and a commercial centre. .

I have only stated Thrishur was a cluster of Islands and ancient Christians lived there when Mahabali was ruling. We only know that they are authentic and ancient… nothing more…
This is a very affirmative statement. Do you have any satellite pictures of 16th century or 19th Century to prove otherwise. Isint the affirmative argument better than your arguments ? No proof needed only creative blind statements are required. Thrishur folks are so embedded in creativity.

But secular history punches some big holes in the fiction. Over two hundred years a lot of integration has taken place but not all have forgotten the history of migrations.

Do you claim that these Islands got integrated after Thrishur Vicariate was created ? Any evidences ? Was this some contribution of the Anglo Indian " authentic" bishop whom the new generation Thrishur Clergy cherishes.

 

[Mariamkutty]

True ! Only Thrishur folks can tell this story. No one else has this much creativity and stupidity to be so dumb to speak about 19th Century when there are hundrads of documents. The only priest who was not trained with Anglicans was the Vicar of Ollur Church and thats why only he stayed in Catholic Church.

By the way, i did learn in Sunday School about Mar Mellus Elias and if you havent heard about Mar Thomas Rokkos also.

LukaThomas, I happen to have read the details of the Latin Rite Portuguese Padroado schism of Thrissur. It happened after Portuguese Padroado was suppressed in 1838 and Latin Rite churches were to come under Veropoly Archdiocese. The schism was supported by two groups, Anglicans and Lutherans. The priests who would later become bishops were trained in British seminaries, first in India and then in England. After that they were sent to the Middle East to learn all about Syriac Liturgies. They lived there for a long while. One bishop after the other. They made two visits to Thrissur. Then came the litigation to get church property which was settled in favour of the schismatics when a Patriarch newly created from Middle East came to India. Portuguese Padroado having been suppressed could not claim the churches for Latin Rite Veropoly archdiocese.

 

[lukathomas]

Ernakulam and Changanasserry diocese were not created until 1896. .

Yes OT says that God created Thrishur first. Dont you know Changanassery is the Kottayam Vicariate which was shifted from Kottayam town ? What you guys in Thrishur call this disease ? Is it being petty jealous ?

Eleven ancient churches of vicariate of Thrissur were taken to be part of Ernakulam diocese. .

More than that was taken from Changanassery. But by 1923 it was Ernakulam the See. Thrishur was elevated to Arch Bishoporic only in 1995. Tellichery can claim more than you guys !

After the arrival of Carmelites in 1657, they focussed all their attention on Travancore because the See of Cranganore for Syrian Catholics was under Portuguese Padroado.

Aha ! Syond of Diamper had 80 to 90% participation from Travancore. Was there something anywhere else to shift attention on Travancore !!

 

[lukathomas]

LukaThomas, I happen to have read the details of the Latin Rite Portuguese Padroado schism of Thrissur. It happened after Portuguese Padroado was suppressed in 1838 and Latin Rite churches were to come under Veropoly Archdiocese. The schism was supported by two groups, Anglicans and Lutherans. .

I have read better records with sources. These are all available. I have even challanged you last time to prove anything as wrong. You guys are the worst hypocrites ! Nothing to say more. I hope that an average Thrishur Clergy has better awareness than you.

 

[Mariamkutty]

I have only stated Thrishur was a cluster of Islands and ancient Christians lived there when Mahabali was ruling. We only know that they are authentic and ancient… nothing more…
This is a very affirmative statement. Do you have any satellite pictures of 16th century or 19th Century to prove otherwise. Isint the affirmative argument better than your arguments ? No proof needed only creative blind statements are required. Thrishur folks are so embedded in creativity.
Do you claim that these Islands got integrated after Thrishur Vicariate was created ? Any evidences ? Was this some contribution of the Anglo Indian " authentic" bishop whom the new generation Thrishur Clergy cherishes.

LukaThomas, people in Thrissur district did not come in Portuguese or Dutch ships and after a couple of centuries then have to invent stories about how they were natives who migrated from here to there or whatever. People who are writing about the tiniest details about places they have never known in times when history was never recorded, they are the creative thinkers.

You insist locals in Thrissur are not locals if they don’t have satellite pictures and they do not feel the need to invent fiction for their very existence. Outsiders have invented all sorts of theories in recent years and insist locals should accept them. Did Native Americans have to justify to the European settlers of the sixteenth that they had always lived on American soil, because they had no satellite pictures from ancient times to prove it?

 

[Mariamkutty]

I have read better records with sources. These are all available. I have even challanged you last time to prove anything as wrong. You guys are the worst hypocrites ! Nothing to say more. I hope that an average Thrishur Clergy has better awareness than you.

LukaThomas, the Thrissur schism has been so perfectly explained from a very reliable source. The role of Anglicans in forming the new church has also been well explained. British was the world power at that time after all. It is not by accident that the schismatics associate so closely with Anglicans. It is a new church created by Anglicans in the Middle East with Syriac Liturgy using thorough British scholarship.

 

[lukathomas]

LukaThomas, people in Thrissur district did not come in Portuguese or Dutch ships and after a couple of centuries then have to invent stories about how they were natives who migrated from here to there or whatever.
You insist locals in Thrissur are not locals if they don’t have satellite pictures and they do not feel the need to invent fiction for their very existence. Outsiders have invented all sorts of theories in recent years and insist locals should accept them. Did Native Americans have to justify to the European settlers of the sixteenth that they had always lived on American soil, because they had no satellite pictures from ancient times to prove it?

What is wrong in asking evidences ? Is there anything wrong in making very affirmative statements which has no base ? This is something i learnt from you. You make wonderful stories about even 19th century which has no base.

At the end it is evidences which matters. If you want to take up the story of any families, you have to do the research and challange with evidences. By simply making statements with no base will not reach you any where.

 

[lukathomas]

LukaThomas, the Thrissur schism has been so perfectly explained from a very reliable source. The role of Anglicans in forming the new church has also been well explained. British was the world power at that time after all. It is not by accident that the schismatics associate so closely with Anglicans. It is a new church created by Anglicans in the Middle East with Syriac Liturgy using thorough British scholarship.

Anglicans has no role in Kerala in these issues.It was only in 1908, the remaining party joined Assyrian Church of East which had Anglican Colloboration.

 

[Mariamkutty]

What has Kingdom of Cochin to do with Synod of Diamper. Synod was called by the Archdeacon. You better learn than wasting others time with you fraud Thrishur propaganda.

I had earlier explained about the Charam Ketty party. Knanaya is a new name by Charam Ketty Party adopted in 1992. Nothing to say more. I have only one question is this an average Thrishur clergy understanding about the Church ?

Excellent and for that Rome Canonised him as Blessed ! Who made the discovery ? Do you have any idea ?

Talking to some lower level sunday school students in Travancore area about Church history is better than talking to Thrishur clergy. They know better than Thrishur Clergy !!!

O please, Kodungallur (Cranganore) was the seat of Assyro-Chaldean bishops until 1597. It happens to be North of Cochin, NOT south, where Travancore is located. Btw, at that time Kottayam didn’t exist as Kottayam at all. You must refer to them by the names they were then known - Thekkumkur, Vadamkkumkur, Devikulam, Munjanad etc.

Udayamperoor is in erstwhile kingdom of Cochin. The Archbishop of Goa, Fr Alexio de Menezes OSA called for the Synod. A Jesuit priest, Fr Francisco Rodriquez was left in charge of St Thomas Christians after the Synod.

I don’t think people who call themselves Knanayi Christians would appreciate you calling them Cheram Ketty Party. They claim that Knanai Thomman was their bishop and they came from the Middle East. They have the oldest church at Niranam, estimated to be about 250 years old at the time of the first Travancore census made in 1901, and it is built in synagogue style.

If the vicariate of Thrissur were not the continuation of See of Cranganore, you could have claimed that it did not have a Syriac Liturgy until Fr Kuriakose wrote one for them. As it is they continued to use the Liturgy they had been using since Synod of Diamper in 1599.

 

[Mariamkutty]

What is wrong in asking evidences ? Is there anything wrong in making very affirmative statements which has no base ? This is something i learnt from you. You make wonderful stories about even 19th century which has no base.

At the end it is evidences which matters. If you want to take up the story of any families, you have to do the research and challange with evidences. By simply making statements with no base will not reach you any where.

Secular history has recorded the arrival of foreigners on Malabar Coast, the Portuguese in 1500, Dutch starting 1600, capturing all Portuguese holdings by 1663, setting up base in Cochin, the annexation by Haider Ali and Tippu Sultan, the wars fought by the king of Travancore, the Zamorins of Calicut, the building of Thrissur town by Shakthan Thampuran, the arrival of businessmen from Cochin to set up the commercial centre, the arrival of British and the beginning of British Raj in Kerala since 1795.

The locals lived where they were. Kerala consisted of separate kingdoms. Locals didn’t live like nomads. The areas of Thrissur is not desert land, people could survive without migrations. That is all you need to know, and that can be verified by anyone who cares to go to Thrissur.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Anglicans has no role in Kerala in these issues.It was only in 1908, the remaining party joined Assyrian Church of East which had Anglican Colloboration.

The role of Anglicans was in the Middle East. It was there that they helped consecrate clergy for the newly formed schismatic church. It is because of British involvement that there has been such thorough scholarship. But that is not the same as having genuine antiquity in Thrissur. The churches involved were Latin Rite of Portuguese Padroado.

 

[lukathomas]

O please, Kodungallur (Cranganore) was the seat of Assyro-Chaldean bishops until 1597. It happens to be North of Cochin, NOT south, where Travancore is located. Btw, at that time Kottayam didn’t exist as Kottayam at all. You must refer to them by the names they were then known - Thekkumkur, Vadamkkumkur, Devikulam, Munjanad etc. .

How does that matter ? There are no concrete evidences to fix any seat or see in Malabar. There are also no historical backing to this if you study prior bishops like Mar Jacob.

What matters is that 80 to 90% churches were in Travancore and the head of the community the Archdeacon was from Travancore.

The Archbishop of Goa, Fr Alexio de Menezes OSA called for the Synod. A Jesuit priest, Fr Francisco Rodriquez was left in charge of St Thomas Christians after the Synod.

The Role played by Archdeacon is attested in published Catholic documentation.

I don’t think people who call themselves Knanayi Christians would appreciate you calling them Cheram Ketty Party.

How does it matters if they appreciate or not ? That was the name they were known. We used to claim that they got the Charam ( Ash) from their dhobbi ancestors. I dont have this habit of speaking history as it pleases people. Thats the way it is. If they have objections let them prove that 1992 was indeed 345 AD.

They claim that Knanai Thomman was their bishop and they came from the Middle East.

Who was Cana Thomman no one knows ? I have also heard that they came from Tamil Nadu.

They have the oldest church at Niranam, estimated to be about 250 years old at the time of the first Travancore census made in 1901, and it is built in synagogue style.

This is interesting. I have never heard about any Charam Ketty old Churches in Niranam which can claim 250 years. Are you sure ? Do you have more info ?

If the vicariate of Thrissur were not the continuation of See of Cranganore, you could have claimed that it did not have a Syriac Liturgy until Fr Kuriakose wrote one for them. .

Pope didnot know that vicariate of Thrissur was the continuation of See of Cranganore. Are you guys trying to match Charam Ketty Party in stories ?

By the way i didnot say Blessed Chavara Kuriakose transalted liturgy. You should know it is not just liturgy which is used in Church services.

 

[lukathomas]

The churches involved were Latin Rite of Portuguese Padroado.

Jealousy Thy name is Thrishur ! Do you expect anyone to buy this story ? What are you planning to do with the records. Burn them all !!

 

[Mariamkutty]

How does that matter ? There are no concrete evidences to fix any seat or see in Malabar. There are also no historical backing to this if you study prior bishops like Mar Jacob.

What matters is that 80 to 90% churches were in Travancore and the head of the community the Archdeacon was from Travancore.

The Role played by Archdeacon is attested in published Catholic documentation.

How does it matters if they appreciate or not ? That was the name they were known. We used to claim that they got the Charam ( Ash) from their dhobbi ancestors. I dont have this habit of speaking history as it pleases people. Thats the way it is. If they have objections let them prove that 1992 was indeed 345 AD.

Who was Cana Thomman no one knows ? I have also heard that they came from Tamil Nadu.

This is interesting. I have never heard about any Charam Ketty old Churches in Niranam which can claim 250 years. Do you have more info ?
Pope didnot know that vicariate of Thrissur was the continuation of See of Cranganore. Are you guys trying to match Charam Ketty Party in stories ?

By the way i didnot say Blessed Chavara Kuriakose transalted liturgy. You should know it is not just liturgy which is used in Church services.

LukaThomas, do you know that Franciscan missionaries worked intensely in Kollam (Quilon or Coulam) since the arrival of Portuguese because the Portuguese had a trading post there as well as in Kannur, besides Cochin?

Travancore did not include present regions of Kottayam and Pathanamthitta until 1754? So any mention of Travancore before that period does not have anything to do with present Kottayam-Pathanamthitta?

Do you know from when Latin Rite missionaries started to work in areas south of Cochin? And how many converts they made?

Of course if you insist only what you accept in accordance with your own fiction, then of course there is no group that claims to be Knanayi Christians who follow the same Syriac Liturgy as the Jacobites but belong to two different churches, one to Syro Malabar and the other to Jacobites.

Are you the Pope who doesn’t know that the Syriac Rite See of Cranganore is the same as the vicariate of Thrissur 1887?

You must also accept that there may be people who don’t accept your invented history either.