Syro Malabar Church Phoenix Arizona

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Dear mariamkutty
Please give an explanation to the above. They are very important since our 2 major arch bishops, the heads of our church in Kerala have produced those statements. Were they joking? Please mariamkutty, please answer.
It is very disappointing that nobody gives an explanation to the above. Syro malankara, luke or mariamkutty; why don’t you give explanation?
I don’t know who started posting that supposed “quote” - but no one has posted the full article nor any context. I personally believe that the quotes are being taken out of context. Please provide the FULL ARTICLE before repeating it.
 
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Mariamkutty:
Dear maria—mole
You and your chaachan have the great vattt as evident from this forum.
 
*Since Kerala State, India, is a highly sought after tourist destination, it is marketed by different groups in different ways. Hence maps of Kerala found on the Internet need not be reliable as it may be merely part of promotion by a particular group or person for different reasons.
*
**Please ignore ALL maps of Kerala posted until now.

Here is a map taken from (hopefully!) an official Kerala government website:
**

kerala.gov.in/dept_survey/map_kerala.jpg

http://www.kerala.gov.in/dept_survey/map_kerala.jpg

For the purpose of discussion on the topic of Christianity in Kerala, it must be noted that Kottayam and Pathanamthitta districts are not coastal areas. It is flanked to the West by the coastal districts, Alapuzha (Allepey) and Kollam (Quilon).
 
Dear maria—mole
You and your chaachan have the great vattt as evident from this forum.
***Sorry, but we don’t have chaachans anywhere in Thrissur District. So keep your chaachans where they belong - in Kottayam-Pathanamthitta districts.

Even though Thrissur District didn’t have the benefit of British education from 1806 (as the lucky ones in Kottayam-Pathanamthitta districts did), the women, at least from my grandmothers’ generation that I know of, think for themselves. I know for a fact that my grandmothers, my aunts and my own mother did. Surely you don’t think I need somebody to think for me, do you?

I have not presented myself as the expert on this forum. I have merely tried to question some of the standard claims made by certain Christian groups in Kerala, based on secular history which contradicts it. I’m open to correction at all times (for instance I stand corrected on the use of the word KATTANAR for vicar/parish priest at the time of Synod of Diamper 1599; there is an urgent need for verify the exact names by which all the villages, principalities, feudal holdings in the region of Kerala were known at the time in order to confirm where the ancient churches were located), based on reliable information. But not based on intimidation and propaganda. Anyone who tries to use intimidation to push their agenda needs to be disqualified by the international community from further discussion on the topic. This is a discussion to encourage real scholarship using reliable primary historical sources, and to discourage propaganda by all groups. The Malabar Coast (Kerala since 1956) was influenced by Portuguese, Dutch and British successively from 1500. So their exact areas of influence needs to be taken into consideration while reconstructing the history of Christianity in present Kerala.*
**
 
The Holy Family Syro Malabar Catholic Mission of Arizona was pioneered in 2006 by Chicago Bishop Angadiath, supported by Pastor/Priest Rev Fr.Mathews Munjanath. **The church was an outreach of Bible Temple in Phoenix, Gilbert Tucson under the apostolic oversight of Pastor Mathews Munjanath. ** Fr.Munjanath was also involved in international ministry of speakers, authors and ministers. Rev.Fr.Munjanath became known for the “DragonSlayer” New Generation youth seminars held across America from 2006 to 2009. Rev.Fr. Munjanath graduated in 1990 from Mysore University with a Bachelor’s degree in Religion.

The pastors and members of Holy Family Syro Malabar Catholic Mission have a confident vision of faith for compassionately impacting the immediate community, the greater Phoenix area, the northwest United States and other nations as the Holy Spirit directs. Ministry to nations has continued to increase with specific involvement in more than seventy nations. The pastors believe every year will bring an unfolding expression of a city within a city, a vision that includes youth and children’s outreaches, food and clothing distribution, ministry to the needy, facilities for compassionate care, training, education, recreation, shopping and more with daily ministry to people in need from all walks of life.

Holy Family Syro Malabar Catholic Mission of Arizona is a diverse congregation representing people from a variety of backgrounds, nations, races and ages. The Holy Family Syro Malabar Catholic Mission is an autonomous, self-governing local church established on the pattern of the New Testament early church. Using the Book of Acts as a blueprint, the church is structured with local ordained elders as well as apostolic relationship with other Christian leaders outside of the congregation. The church is affiliated with chicago bishop house with eastern right, where Pastor Munjanath is helping to provide fellowship, training and accountability for pastors and church leaders worldwide.

The Holy Family Syro Malabar Catholic Mission is known for its spirit of worship, prophetic preaching, generosity, faith in the goodness of God and warm Christian love. The Syro Malabar Catholic Mission began planting new churches in 1992 and continues with a vision that encompasses the metro region of Arizona, the nation’s Capital in DC, and other states in the USA and in cities and villages around the world as the Lord leads.

syromalabaraz.org/ (Ref: About Us)
The About US section of Akkara Kazhchakkal Holy Family Syro Malabar Catholic Church Mission Phoenix Arizona read exactly like above on 9 November 2009. All I did was cut and paste, in order to discuss it in detail because I was somewhat surprised by the strange content, which read more like a Mormon -Prophetic One Pastor Church, rather than a Syro Malabar Church.

I’m glad the introduction has since been corrected to match the Syro Malabar Church. The history of the Synod of Diamper 1599 has been omitted. The international Apostle Thomas pilgrim center at Malayatoor, Kurishumudi, Ernakulam District, has likewise not been mentioned.
 
Will you stop bashing the mission parish in Phoenix? The name of the parish is Holy Family, not Akkara Kazhchakkal. Would you like people referring to your parish as Latinised-Romanized Trichurian Syro-Malabar Community of the Forgotten St. Thomas Tradition?
 
Will you stop bashing the mission parish in Phoenix? The name of the parish is Holy Family, not Akkara Kazhchakkal. Would you like people referring to your parish as Latinised-Romanized Trichurian Syro-Malabar Community of the Forgotten St. Thomas Tradition?
Mr SyroMalankara, it is not MY fault that the church which calls itself Holy Family Syro Malabar Church in Phoenix Arizona posted the kind of stuff on its website when I viewed it on 9 November 2009. It is because of the ability of webmasters to change content that the date of access is always mentioned. Akkara Kazhchakkal in association with the church name is likewise not MY invention. If anyone had clicked the link on the day it was first posted, 8 Nov 09, they would have read exactly what I posted here one day later on 9 Nov 09.

If pointing out the incongruous constitutes bashing, then you need to understand that I do not consider your political expediency as a virtue. You seem to have some kind of totalitarian background. You even went to the extent of issuing a veiled threat, to report me to my parish priest, right? For discussing history of Christianity in Kerala on an American forum? For calling attention to the colonial history of Kerala, which started in 1500 and did not end until 1947, at a period in history when there was no separation of church, state, colonial trade and conquests? And it was not unusual for colonial traders at that time to merge with the local population, as long as it suited their business interests and increased their local power?

My community in Thrissur District of Kerala happens to have resisted Synod of Diamper in 1599 (we did not live in the kingdom of Cochin where the Portuguese colonial traders had their control you know, and the issue of communion with Rome was pushed by other groups only after being without a bishop for two years from 1597 - 1599), so much so that Archbishop Dom Frey Aleixo de Menezes did not visit any church NORTH of Cochin BEFORE the Synod, but only AFTER the Synod.

Traders from Cochin did come to Thrissur in late eighteenth century when the king of Cochin, Shakthan Thampuran annexed Thrissur. But the locals know that part of history very well. And the suppression of Latin Rite Portuguese Padroado in 1838, which led to the second round of schism, which once again did not involve the authentic ancient community.

But once we had accepted Synod of Diamper, there was no need for anyone to break away as is commonly claimed since the arrival of British CMS in Kottayam in 1806. We did not live in the kingdom of Cochin where Portguese colonial traders had their control you know. Thrissur District did not cultivate pepper, coffee, tea or rubber that could have interested any European trader. The whole story of schism being among the ancient community was simply made up. The schism took place in Mattancherry, Cochin right in the middle of Portguese colony, just before Dutch captured Cochin with the help of a feudal lord and local supporters from south of Cochin who wanted to ascend the throne of Cochin and take over international trade. The real king of Cochin had to into hiding after the arrival of Dutch. So it is understandable Portuguese and their supporters had no place in Cochin in the lead up to the overthrow of Portuguese and the Portuguese supported king of Cochin with the help of Dutch.

The report submitted by Anglican, Rev Buchanan, to the British Resident of Travancore in 1806, led to the formation of many new churches. The claim to be “authentic” Syrians is simply because they went to the Middle East in the nineteenth century with British education and Anglican help and got hold of Syriac Liturgy in the Middle East at the time, and some even got Patriarchs from there to exert authority in Kerala. In comparison of course the Syriac Liturgy followed by the ancient Christian community which came in communion with RCC in 1599, is old and far removed from the Middle East Liturgy of nineteenth century.

Nobody has looked at development of Christianity in Kerala since 1806, and the report of Rev Buchanan from that angle because it has not occurred to anyone to question the role European Protestants played behind the scenes in Kerala ( Britain was a world power with colonies everywhere) among groups who broke with the Catholic church, and the introduction of Middle Eastern Patriarchs to Kerala in the nineteenth century. Some were probably not Catholic at any time to begin with since there were several European Protestant groups active in Malabar and Coromandel Coast since the arrival of Dutch and Danish fleets starting 1602, followed by British. British were the last arrivals to Kerala , but they had already set up base in Madras by 1639.

Mr SyroMalankara, you voice the opinion of European Protestants who were in Kerala from 1663 to 1947. The voice has been masked only because all these voices are hiding behind Middle Eastern Syriac Liturgies and Patriarchs picked up in the nineteenth century.

You as a member of the Syro Malankara Church created only in 1932 from groups that got a Middle Eastern Patriarch in the nineteenth century, calling any authentic member of the ancient community of Christians in Thrissur District, who is part of the Thrissur vicariate of the 1887 Syro Malabar Church, a member of the “forgotten Apostle Thomas tradition,” is a bit rich. To say the least.

Btw, it is common knowledge that the United States, the land of the free and unlimited opportunity, is also the land of tough lone pioneers and innovators. Hence the thousands of one pastor churches and New Age religions and innovative practice in all Christian churches that grows roots in the US.
 
The difference between my explanation and yours is: I have not ever bashed authentic Syro-Malabar Tradition or the faith of individuals within the Syro-Malabar Church. Your claim regarding MY Church as a whole, and the Malankara and Syriac Orthodox Christians in India goes against every historic teaching from both the Catholic, Orthodox, and even Anglican Church and its scholars. No one has ever claimed that our Holy Divine Liturgy was CONCOCTED by British Anglicans and brought to us - which we then accepted as authentic and digested. That claim is LUDICROUS and insulting. The West Syriac Liturgy is the closest remnant of the Liturgy of Jerusalem, it is nearly unchanged from the time of the Holy Apostles - save some additional prayers and truncations by Bar Hebraes. The Anglican version of the Holy Qurbono of St. James is the one that the Marthoma protestants use - we (CATHOLICS AND ORTHODOX) wholly REJECT their innovation. Our Liturgy recognizes the Communion of Saints, the holy Ever-Virgin Mother of God, we pray for our deceased and remember our Father and Mothers in faith - ALL OF THESE are against Anglican teaching! If your story is true, why would the Anglicans create a liturgy that THEY THEMSELVES are against?? – it makes NO SENSE!

As to “British support” - the British supported whoever was better for business - they cared little for what our faith was at first, as long as we weren’t Catholic (Catholics were pro-Portuguese, therefore bad for British business)… Later they began intruding with their missionaries and theologians. AT THIS POINT, the West Syrian Christians DISASSOCIATED themselves from the Anglican mission. Only Rev. Abraham Malpan and his followers - a tiny minority - followed them. They changed the Holy Qurbono to reflect Anglican theology and was immediately EXCOMMUNICATED.

As to your statements regarding “veiled threats” - what do you have to fear if you are espousing the truth? What can your parish priest say if you are accurate in your statements? You should only fear oversight as a “veiled threat” if your fear your posted information is inaccurate.
Mr SyroMalankara, you voice the opinion of European Protestants who were in Kerala from 1663 to 1947. The voice has been masked only because all these voices are hiding behind Middle Eastern Syriac Liturgies and Patriarchs picked up in the nineteenth century.
According to whom?? Why should anyone believe YOUR personal version of Kerala history that goes against every other - including Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican scholarly writing?
You as a member of the Syro Malankara Church created only in 1932 from groups that got a Middle Eastern Patriarch in the nineteenth century, calling any authentic member of the ancient community of Christians in Thrissur District, who is part of the Thrissur vicariate of the 1887 Syro Malabar Church, a member of the “forgotten Apostle Thomas tradition,” is a bit rich. To say the least.
Another INSULT against the Syro-Malankara CATHOLIC Church as a WHOLE and her members.

As to your constant insulting of Holy Family SYRO-MALABAR parish in Phoenix - You, of all people, being a member of the Syro-Malabar ancient community of Christians, should know better than to bash a newly formed mission parish OF YOUR OWN CHURCH, using the space provided by an American Catholic parish! Those poor people are trying to start something to retain their Syro-Malabar Tradition in a far-away land, with the few resources that they can muster, and instead of giving support, you insult time and again.
Btw, it is common knowledge that the United States, the land of the free and unlimited opportunity, is also the land of tough lone pioneers and innovators. Hence the thousands of one pastor churches and New Age religions and innovative practice in all Christian churches that grows roots in the US.
I agree this is true. India is also the land of 130million gods - where every idiotic idea, religion, superstition, and unsupported miracle cure can find support among a few, who will dish out the few rupees they have to fund such claims. It is also the place where any conversation on history has a thousand-and-one variations, each with its own twists and turns, none proven only repeated and re-repeated. Instead of playing these games, please provide scholarly sources. You have stated that I and others are repeating “European Protestant” history – apparently you’ve heard it before. Well, I’ve never heard your version stated by Scholars or anyone else – there, please provide scholarly SOURCES before stating your version of history as fact. (Especially your never-before-mentioned claim that our Holy Liturgy was CONCOCTED by low-church Anglicans…)
 
Mr SyroMalankara, you voice the opinion of European Protestants who were in Kerala from 1663 to 1947. The voice has been masked only because all these voices are hiding behind Middle Eastern Syriac Liturgies and Patriarchs picked up in the nineteenth century.

You as a member of the Syro Malankara Church created only in 1932 from groups that got a Middle Eastern Patriarch in the nineteenth century, calling any authentic member of the ancient community of Christians in Thrissur District, who is part of the Thrissur vicariate of the 1887 Syro Malabar Church, a member of the “forgotten Apostle Thomas tradition,” is a bit rich. To say the least.
Dear mariamkutty

Why do you spread such misbeliefs and false things through this forum?
What you say about middle eastern patriarchs is absolutely incorrect.
First you tell me the reason behind Coonan cross oath in 1553.
The reason was,
The syrian christian community in kerala was dissatisfied with the Synod of Diamper and latinisation. When a man named Ahatalla came or when he sent a letter from mylapore to Kerala that he is the Ignatios of Antioch, a rumour spread that ‘Ignatios of Antioch has come’. After that Portuguese brought Ahatalla to Kochi and a rumour spread that Portuguese drowned him in sea. Catholics say that Ahatallah was sent to Goa by Portuguese. People said that Ignatios, the patriarch of Antioch has come to visit Kerala church. Any way enraged by this, people under the leadership of Anjilimoottil Itty Thommen Kathanar took a cross and took the oath. “We will never ever accept the supremacy of Portuguese Jesusits (samapaloor pathiris) and will be faithful to the supremacy of Holy see of Antioch only from generations to generations”.
** Any way the Syriac orthodox church in Kerala is going to venerate Ahatalla as a saint. They say that he was the Patriarch of Antioch at that time. Also now scholars and historians have proved that Ahatalla who came in 1553 was the then Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatios Hidayat Allah. ** I do not know much details about these. May be Luke or Syro malankara can give me an answer.
Then mariamkutty, Why do you say that middle eastern patriarchs came in 19th century. From your writings it is clear that you got money or some positions from pro latin side. I also give you an offer. How much will you pay to me? 2 million rupees. I also will start spreading false stories like you ignoring our faith and truth.
 
When a man named Ahatalla came or when he sent a letter from mylapore to Kerala that he is the Ignatios of Antioch, a rumour spread that ‘Ignatios of Antioch has come’. After that Portuguese brought Ahatalla to Kochi and a rumour spread that Portuguese drowned him in sea. Catholics say that Ahatallah was sent to Goa by Portuguese. People said that Ignatios, the patriarch of Antioch has come to visit Kerala church. Any way enraged by this, people under the leadership of Anjilimoottil Itty Thommen Kathanar took a cross and took the oath. “We will never ever accept the supremacy of Portuguese Jesusits (samapaloor pathiris) and will be faithful to the supremacy of Holy see of Antioch only from generations to generations”.
Any way the Syriac orthodox church in Kerala is going to venerate Ahatalla as a saint. They say that he was the Patriarch of Antioch at that time. Also now scholars and historians have proved that Ahatalla who came in 1553 was the then Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatios Hidayat Allah. I do not know much details about these. May be Luke or Syro malankara can give me an answer.
To add another story to the mix, at least one scholar has stated that this “Ahatallah” was sent to India by the Chaldean CATHOLIC Patriarch of Babylon – members.tripod.com/~berchmans/orthodox.html
According to some sources, the Bishop was not drowned but sent back to the Middle East (some say he died on route), but the rumour spread and riots ensued.
Then mariamkutty, Why do you say that middle eastern patriarchs came in 19th century. From your writings it is clear that you got money or some positions from pro latin side. I also give you an offer. How much will you pay to me? 2 million rupees. I also will start spreading false stories like you ignoring our faith and truth.
I don’t think anyone is being paid off here - it’s a simple case of rumour and hearsay being presented as undisputed FACT… the reality is, there are hundreds of versions of this story, each side trying to exaggerate a little here, remove a little blame from themselves, embellishments as to the sins of others – no one today knows the REAL story. I only take seriously those who can back up their version with some kind of scholarly references - otherwise we’ll be playing he said/she said til the Parousia.
 
The difference between my explanation and yours is: I have not ever bashed authentic Syro-Malabar Tradition or the faith of individuals within the Syro-Malabar Church…
I beg to disagree. Read this…
Would you like people referring to your parish as Latinised-Romanized Trichurian Syro-Malabar Community of the Forgotten St. Thomas Tradition?
Anyone who does a search of all your posts on this forum with specific reference to your comments on this topic would be able to read several comments in which you criticized the Syro Malabar Catholic Church in general and the Thrissur Archdiocese in particular. The word “Latinization” has been used frequently as a derogatory epithet.

The Syro Malankara Church formed only in 1932 (which btw claims the Malabar Coast was known as Malankara!), which had carefully minted its identity over several years, removed allegiance to Patriarchs in the Middle East created in the nineteenth century from the Syriac Liturgy borrowed from them at that point and modified over several years with in-depth study of ancient traditions in ME. There was after all both groups in Syro Malankara - BAVA (Patriarch) and METRAN (bishop) faction. A search of your posts will turn up a comment in which you mentioned how the Liturgy in your church evolved over time. A study of the history of Church of Scotland Liturgy and how it evolved after it broke with Rome, would shed some light on the evolution in Syro Malankara Church which was part of both factions which had connections with Church of Scotland and Patriarch of Antioch since 1836. There had been no bishop sent by Patriarchs from the Middle East in Malabar/Kerala post Synod of Diamper in 1599. Until then the allegiance of the ancient community had been to the Patriarch of Babylon which followed the Syriac Liturgy of Addai and Mari.

Non-Catholics sought out Patriarchs from ME in the nineteenth century, post training under CMS missionaries in their seminary for twenty years until 1836, after Synod (Padiola) of Mavelikkara 1836. Non-Catholics had requested the British Resident for help from non-Catholic CMS and other missionaries active elsewhere in India since the arrival of British with religious learning. Why would they do that if they had been under a Patriarch from the Middle East, from 1665 as they claim? An Indian convert belonging to CMS, by the name Abdul Masih, had been appointed to assist Rev Claudius Buchanan in preparing his report for the British Resident. Rev Buchanan published a book in English in which he supported the non-Catholic group in Kottayam, and also presented the case to the British Resident. CMS missionaries were sent to Kottayam based on that report. The first batch included Rev Horton, Rev Benjamin Bailey, Rev Joseph Fenn, Rev Henry Baker. More would come. English schools, the press, CMS college etc would be set up.

For twenty years, until the case was filed against CMS missionaries in 1836 to gain access to the seminary in which CMS had trained non-Catholics, there was only one group. There was no Patriarch faction. The Patriarch/BAVA faction was created post Synod of Mavelikkara in 1836, after one member went to ME. Two non-Catholics who went to get further education at Madras Christian College run by Scottish missionaries, after first being trained in the CMS seminary, were the first to start the division among the group of non-Catholics. They split into Mar Thoma, the group which became part of Anglican Communion (Church of England), the Patriarch/BAVA faction which got a Patriarch from the ME after a member went to ME, got consecrated by a Patriarch there, spent time in parishes there learning the culture and language, before returning. The same thing was done by another, who went to ME, but this time got an Assyrian connection. The Chaldean Church had by then come in full communion with RCC.

The non-Catholic European Churches involved in assisting these groups were Church of England (CMS was fully Protestant “low” Anglican, but Church of England was “high” Anglican, i.e. Roman Catholic minus the Pope in Rome), Church of Scotland (which considers itself older than the Church of England and less “Latinized”), Lutherans (who are less Protestant than CMS and LMS)…

The term “Jacobite” comes also from two non-ME sources, one is Dutch Calvinist, Jacob Arminius, and the other is Scottish Jacobite. Church of Scotland Liturgy boasts of having some important portions of the Eastern Liturgy of St James. A lot of academic work in Eastern Liturgies had been undertaken by Scots post the break with Rome. It spilled over to Kottayam groups.

***It cannot be overemphasized that the non-Catholic group in Kottayam-Pathanamthitta districts had not sought out a Patriarch from the Middle East during the Dutch period in Kerala (Malabar Coast) 1663 - 1795. The search for ME Patriarchs was made by non-Catholics in Kottayam only after first training under CMS for twenty years 1816-1836, and further education by a couple of them under Scottish missionaries at Madras Christian College, Madras. ***

The authentic ancient community of St Thomas Christians who came in communion with RCC in 1599 at Synod of Diamper removed allegiance to the Patriarch of Babylon at that point. Whatever modifications happened in their association with RCC from 1599 is part of their unbroken history.
 
Your claim regarding MY Church as a whole, and the Malankara and Syriac Orthodox Christians in India goes against every historic teaching from both the Catholic, Orthodox, and even Anglican Church and its scholars. No one has ever claimed that our Holy Divine Liturgy was CONCOCTED by British Anglicans and brought to us - which we then accepted as authentic and digested. That claim is LUDICROUS and insulting. The West Syriac Liturgy is the closest remnant of the Liturgy of Jerusalem, it is nearly unchanged from the time of the Holy Apostles - save some additional prayers and truncations by Bar Hebraes. The Anglican version of the Holy Qurbono of St. James is the one that the Marthoma protestants use - we (CATHOLICS AND ORTHODOX) wholly REJECT their innovation. Our Liturgy recognizes the Communion of Saints, the holy Ever-Virgin Mother of God, we pray for our deceased and remember our Father and Mothers in faith - ALL OF THESE are against Anglican teaching! If your story is true, why would the Anglicans create a liturgy that THEY THEMSELVES are against?? – it makes NO SENSE!



please provide scholarly sources. You have stated that I and others are repeating “European Protestant” history – apparently you’ve heard it before. Well, I’ve never heard your version stated by Scholars or anyone else – there, please provide scholarly SOURCES before stating your version of history as fact. (Especially your never-before-mentioned claim that our Holy Liturgy was CONCOCTED by low-church Anglicans…)
**I refer constantly to the book by Fr Antonio de Gouveia published in 1606, because it is the ONLY primary historical document concerning the ancient Christian community of Malabar Coast. **The Portuguese came to Cochin even before the Protestant movements in Europe started. In other words the Brits, Dutch, Danes etc were part of the Roman Catholic Church when Portuguese arrived in Malabar in 1500, just as the Portuguese were. Portuguese controlled international trade in the East for over a whole century 1500 - 1602. The Dutch, Danish and British East India companies were formed only in 1600. Even the Dutch would enter the picture only a whole century after the Portuguese and English would follow.

So no Patriarch of bishop from the Middle East could have come to Malabar Coast without the knowledge of Portuguese from 1500 - 1663 (when the Dutch captured Cochin and a few years before that began to take control in other trade posts along the coast).

Non-Catholics who trained under CMS missionaries for twenty years after asking for British help in 1806, can’t in the same breath claim that they were the same group as that which were part of Synod of Diamper in 1599 (which is a well recorded historical event) and also had a different Middle Eastern Patriarch that no one knew anything about, and then be one group which trained under CMS missionaries… It is impossible to follow the logic of these claims.

Study the history of Church of Scotland Liturgy. Study the fact that non-Catholics were trained for twenty years before two of them went to get further training in a college run by Scottish missionaries (Madras Christian College). Study the fact that one of them went to the Middle East, got consecrated by the Patriarch there, lived in ME, served in a parish there before returning to form the BAVA faction. Study the litigations between the two groups that formed as a result - BAVA and METRAN faction. Study the fact that the Assyrian BAVA faction was similarly trained in a British seminary first, before going to England for higher studies, then going to ME to live among the people there to study the language and Addai and Mari Liturgy , was consecrated in an ANGLICAN church in Mosul (because it was not possible to consecrate in Baghdad at first as a result of the original Chaldean Church having come in communion with RCC)…

There is a great advantage in being able to think for oneself without being restricted to follow the official line of any church. Who is to listen to the complaints of those who have been asked to swallow an official church version that all St Thomas Christians went to Mattancherry in Cochin and became schismatics in 1653? Where is the proof for such propaganda which has been circulated for so long?
 
As to “British support” - the British supported whoever was better for business - they cared little for what our faith was at first, as long as we weren’t Catholic (Catholics were pro-Portuguese, therefore bad for British business)… Later they began intruding with their missionaries and theologians. AT THIS POINT, the West Syrian Christians DISASSOCIATED themselves from the Anglican mission. Only Rev. Abraham Malpan and his followers - a tiny minority - followed them. They changed the Holy Qurbono to reflect Anglican theology and was immediately EXCOMMUNICATED.

Another INSULT against the Syro-Malankara CATHOLIC Church as a WHOLE and her members.
The British Resident was approached by non-Catholics in Kottayam-Pathanamthitta districts in 1806, when the king of Travancore entered into a treaty with the British East India Company. Abdul Masih, helped Rev Claudius Buchanan of CMS to prepare a report. CMS missionaries were sent to Kottayam as a result. CMS missionaries to upper Travancore and LMS missionaries to lower Travancore. It was done with the consent of the king of Travancore.

CMS missionaries trained the non-Catholics in their seminary for twenty years. Two of them went for higher studies to Madras Christian College in Madras run by Scottish missionaries. The divisions in the until then single group came after their return. At the Synod of Mavelikkara in 1836, a decision was taken to break with CMS and a lawsuit was filed to gain access to the seminary. The non-Catholics won.

A second law suit filed, called Vatti Panam Case (Vatti = Interest, Panam = money) was to get money deposited somewhere for interest. The non-Catholics won the case but the king of Travancore who was supposed to repay (? on behalf of ousted Dutch) didn’t.

There were several lawsuits to gain access to church property since that time. It included lawsuits to gain churches of Portuguese Padroado in Thrissur by one group who had been Latin Rite Catholics until that point and had been influenced by studying in Kottayam seminaries and further education in England before proceeding to ME to join the team of British (later other European) scholars who by then had been actively involved in the academic study of Syriac Liturgies in ME.

Discussing history is about finding the truth that may have been distorted by those who had power, and does not constitute insulting anyone. In Malabar Coast (Kerala since 1956) church history since 1500 is intricately connected to European colonial traders and their politics. So there is a need to take all that into consideration.
 
As to your statements regarding “veiled threats” - what do you have to fear if you are espousing the truth? What can your parish priest say if you are accurate in your statements? You should only fear oversight as a “veiled threat” if your fear your posted information is inaccurate.
Mr SyroMalankara, when I was a child and spent a lot of time playing in groups with other children, the spoiled bullies would always threaten to tell his/her parents if anyone tried to stop them - kind of “I am going to tell my parents to tell your parents to beat you up!” (I used to be class leader for seven years, so tackling bullies even on the playground was part of my job.)

That is the same thing you are doing, aren’t you? So, grow up! Otherwise post your real contact details on this forum so that I may contact YOUR parish priest or bishop and tell them to teach you how to engage in real debates with people who disagree with you. How come you never had a word to say to someone like LukaThomas who used abusive language towards me?
 
I agree this is true. India is also the land of 130million gods - where every idiotic idea, religion, superstition, and unsupported miracle cure can find support among a few, who will dish out the few rupees they have to fund such claims. It is also the place where any conversation on history has a thousand-and-one variations, each with its own twists and turns, none proven only repeated and re-repeated.
Mr SyroMalankara, there is one BIG difference you don’t seem to take into consideration when you discuss Hindus and Hinduism in India. Hinduism is the oldest surviving religion in the world. It is a confederation of many religions. Hence there are many gods and many philosophies. There is no central authority for any belief, hence all the philosophies and superstitions develop independently of each other. India was not a united country as one imagines. It was a collection of many independent kingdoms. The Hindu society based on the caste system did not allow for any sharing of ideas between groups. There were many languages and dialects which made communication between people from other language groups impossible. Most of the Hindus were illiterate. Half of the Indian population still is. All of which explains how in India simple Hindus are easily misled.

But the same thing can’t be said about Christianity, either in India or anywhere in the world, or the educated Americans who start Christian churches and New Age religions of their own. They are making very informed and educated decisions. In the US, of all countries, many have used religions as cover for big businesses. That is why there is an atheist community very critical of all religions, whether good or bad, because the bad is there for all to see.
 
As to your constant insulting of Holy Family SYRO-MALABAR parish in Phoenix - You, of all people, being a member of the Syro-Malabar ancient community of Christians, should know better than to bash a newly formed mission parish OF YOUR OWN CHURCH, using the space provided by an American Catholic parish! Those poor people are trying to start something to retain their Syro-Malabar Tradition in a far-away land, with the few resources that they can muster, and instead of giving support, you insult time and again.
Mr SyroMalankara, I only posted what I read on the website. You seem to have a really weird sense of what it means to insult anyone. On the one hand you have nothing to say when a member insults my person, but you throw the word insult around when I discuss history. I did NOT insult anyone. The content of the website bothered me, hence I posted it here. The priest who posted the link could have answered my questions. There was no need for you to jump in on his behalf.

I based my comments on what I read. I wondered if it was a branch of the Mormon Church or something. After all starting a new church in the US is the easiest thing to do. The Syro Malabar Church diocese of Chicago has a logo with a European coat of arms and a flag of US and Canada embossed on it, to denote it serves both countries. If that is about retaining Syro Malabar tradition…I am happy for them, for their American-Canadian version for Keralite Americans and Keralite Canadians.
 
Mr SyroMalankara, the music that accompanies the webpage of the Syro Malabar Catholic Mission in Phoenix Arizona, is NOT from any church in Kerala. It is the Gregorian chant, very very European and very Roman Catholic. If that is also a way to keep up Syrian Catholic Kerala traditions, considering Gregorian chants were never a part of worship in Kerala in any church, then…
 
Dear mariamkutty

Why do you spread such misbeliefs and false things through this forum?
What you say about middle eastern patriarchs is absolutely incorrect.
First you tell me the reason behind Coonan cross oath in 1553.

The reason was,

The syrian christian community in kerala was dissatisfied with the Synod of Diamper and latinisation. When a man named Ahatalla came or when he sent a letter from mylapore to Kerala that he is the Ignatios of Antioch, a rumour spread that ‘Ignatios of Antioch has come’. After that Portuguese brought Ahatalla to Kochi and a rumour spread that Portuguese drowned him in sea. Catholics say that Ahatallah was sent to Goa by Portuguese. People said that Ignatios, the patriarch of Antioch has come to visit Kerala church. Any way enraged by this, people under the leadership of Anjilimoottil Itty Thommen Kathanar took a cross and took the oath. “We will never ever accept the supremacy of Portuguese Jesusits (samapaloor pathiris) and will be faithful to the supremacy of Holy see of Antioch only from generations to generations”.

** Any way the Syriac orthodox church in Kerala is going to venerate Ahatalla as a saint. They say that he was the Patriarch of Antioch at that time. Also now scholars and historians have proved that Ahatalla who came in 1553 was the then Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatios Hidayat Allah. ** I do not know much details about these. May be Luke or Syro malankara can give me an answer.

Then mariamkutty, Why do you say that middle eastern patriarchs came in 19th century. From your writings it is clear that you got money or some positions from pro latin side. I also give you an offer. How much will you pay to me? 2 million rupees. I also will start spreading false stories like you ignoring our faith and truth.
MathewJoseph, believing in history propagated by any group is not like believing in God. History of Christianity on Malabar Coast is well recorded since the arrival of Portuguese in 1500. So there is no need for anyone to rely on an act of faith.

If the historical document, concerning Synod of Diamper didn’t exist, anyone could have claimed that an ancient community of Christians didn’t exist in Kerala, that it was all fiction etc. But luckily the ancient community held out for a whole century against Portuguese as a result of which many accounts were written about the “heretics” who were not in communion with Rome etc. The Synod of Diamper in 1599 was an official historical event. Hence it remains recorded.

The claims about Coonan Cross Oath is not so. The only thing we know with certainty is that the Catholic group in the Portuguese colony of Mattancherry, Cochin wanted to break away. Since it was a politically charged place and time, shortly before the overthrow of Portuguese by the Dutch, it must be analyzed thoroughly. It must also be taken into consideration that colonial traders were responsible for creating the propaganda concerning who participated in the schism in Mattancherry. Since the schism took place one and half centuries after the arrival of Portuguese, it must also be taken into consideration that there would have been plenty of Portuguese-Indians and sixth or eighth generation Latin Rite Indian converts by then living in Mattancherry. Portuguese intermarried with locals as one can see from Goa and Brazil. Catholic missionaries were known for bringing about mass conversions of Indians.

Since Malabar Coast had Europeans from three different colonial powers - Portuguese, Dutch and British - successively since 1500, and there were two groups of Catholic administrations since the defeat of Portuguese, the Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide led by Carmelites, in addition to Portuguese Padroado and religious orders associated with them were subsequently suppressed in Portugal, the very orders who had worked directly with the ancient Christian community - Augustinians and Jesuits - all of it must be taken into consideration. The other aspects of history that needs to be taken into consideration is the rise of Protestant groups in Europe starting 1520, the break of Britain with Rome etc etc.

The colonies of Portuguese, Dutch and British in India and other countries around the world needs to be studied to know what colonialism was really like and what it meant to have European colonial traders in a country where the locals had less power. It is to the credit of Hindu Indians that India didn’t go the way of Brazil and other South American countries, or even South Africa, where locals had no say or were overpowered and subjugated until they became second class citizens in their own country.

The ancient Christian community of Malabar Coast lost their power to the Portuguese when they submitted in 1599 during Synod of Diamper. But there was no reason for them to exchange one Patriarch for another in the Middle East once they had accepted the Pope in Rome. This myth that has been propagated for too long needs to be dismantled.

Since all the writing concerning so called schismatics of Mattancherry started to emerge only after the arrival of British, the Rev Claudius Buchanan report of 1806, prepared with help from a certain Indian who went by the name Abul Masih, and joint training with CMS missionaries… the intervening Dutch period 1663 - 1806 needs to be examined closely.

Sorry to disappoint you MathewJoseph. I do not come from a family of businessmen. I do not sell my soul to write propaganda for any group and earn money with it.

Is the idea of challenging ideas academically so strange to you? No priest or member of any church today is responsible for what happened during colonial times in Kerala.
 
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