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Mariamkutty
Guest
MathewJoseph, are you in the habit of offering services to churches in return for money, to write propaganda for them? Tut, tut…
Ende mone, vere pani onnum kitti ille?
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Ende mone, vere pani onnum kitti ille?
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Latinisation is to be corrected, that is from the mouth of every FINAL authority in our Holy Catholic Church - the Late Holy Father Pope John Paul II, the current Holy Father Benedict XVI, the Holy Synod of the Syro-Malabar Church, and Vatican II have made that clear. The past latinisations should be removed and all the Eastern Churches should return to their authentic Sacred Tradition. The word itself is not an epithet, but a reality of the situation of the Syro-Malabar Church. If you had read ALL of my posts on the Syro-Malabar Church, however, you would notice that I mention that the authentic Syro-Malabar Liturgy is beautiful in its own right and there is not need for the Church to become Malankara or Orthodox (as Mathew Joseph suggested).
You keep repeating this as if it should diminish the Church’s status. The Syro-Malankara Church reunited with the Catholic Church in 1932, it didn’t just appear in 1932, its members existed within the Malankara Syriac Church which was not in union with Rome.
Maybe you are unaware of the history of this commonly used nickname for Kerala (used mainly in the Central Kerala region - the name is a cognate of the area of Maliankara near Ernakulum, and eventually to all of Kerala - it is also thought that it refers to the topography of the region Mala - Hill/Mountain Kara - coast. Besides Malabar is commonly used but the origin of the term is a mix of Malayalam and Arabic - I am sure you will agree that the locals had a name for the region before Persians used their nickname, “the Malayalam word Mala (Hill) and Persian word Bar (Kingdom) or Bar (port) from Arabic language.” [Wiki, commonly held opinion]
Not sure what you mean - no one in the Malankara Churches, Catholic or Orthodox, claim that our Liturgy is different from the Syriac Church - it is exactly the same, except for some native Traditions that differ - such as Minnu/Thali for weddings, etc… Our Liturgy is NOT modified AT ALL from the Syriac - it is EXACTLY the same, the only difference is that we commemorate the Pope in our Liturgy, they commemorate their Patriarch or Catholicos. We did not change anything because their Liturgy was always Catholic. The Catholic Church did not need to modify one word of the Holy Liturgy to accept the Malankara Church’s request for reunion.
Perhaps you misread my own words. Where did I claim that the Holy Qurbono of St. James “evolved over time”? The only claim I made is that the non-Catholic Church’s in Kerala removed elements of the Eastern Syriac Liturgy (the same Liturgy as practiced by all Christians before the latinisations of Diamper) and adopted the West Syriac Liturgy when they came into contact with Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem in the late 1600s.
The Malankara Church was never part of the Church of Scotland, so why would the evolution of the protestant-Anglo-Calvinist Church of Scotland liturgy affect the Antiochian-Syriac Liturgy that we practice? Besides, you claim that the loose connection between the Scottish-Protestant church (a handful of theologians and monetary incentives for less than 50yrs) is the same as the full communion that was between the Patriarch of Antioch? Not sure what you are getting at here.
What about Mar Ahatallah (1652)? Mar Gregorios (1665)? Where do you get this information?
No one denies this.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
There was precedence for seeking out Patriarchs from the Middle East, since before the Portuguese arrived, all the bishops were ordained by the Patriarch in the Middle East. Unfortunately, the Patriarchates in the ME were in flux at this time - many were bouncing between Catholic and Orthodox, back and forth. There was no way for the non-Catholics to know which faction the ME Patriarchs belonged to. They simply wanted help from the bishops they knew, in opposition to the oppressive Portuguese.
Actually, the British offered their help - they were not requested - with the provisional that they would NOT interfere in theological or ecclesiastical matters (they did not keep that promise). Why would they turn down foreign aid?
Because the British offered aid and support to a church which was reeling from the imposition of Archbishop Menezes. They would take any help they could receive, who wouldn’t? Are you aware that the same situation took place as late as the 1800s in Russia and over places - despite the ‘schism’ between Catholic and Orthodox, the Jesuits were giving theological training and aid in Russian Seminaries? This is not unheard of. Besides, the Patriarch in the ME has very little to do with the day-to-day activities of the Church, most of the local affairs were taken care of by the native Archdeacon.
Haha… Patriarch Abdul Masih was no convert, NOR was be Indian - Ignatius Abdul Masih was the Patriarch of Antioch - he arrived in Kerala in 1912. Claudius Buchanan was dead by 1815. This is what I mean by my earlier statement about being mixed up - you have some information, a few correct names, but the history and lineage is all over the place. Your information about Patriarch Ignatius Abdul Masih has to do with another schism which took place between the Patriarchal and Catholicos factions of the Orthodox Church - they also used the title Bava and Metran faction to refer to this dispute - but this dispute is completely different than the one which formed the Marthoma (protestant church), although that one is also called Bava/Metran dispute by some. Interestingly, it is stated that Patriarch Abdul Masih actually became a Catholic before he died - he made a profession of faith and was accepted by the Pope.
Ok, this is how the marthoma church was formed - this group is in union with the Anglicans. The majority of non-catholic Christians separated from this Anglican-union early on.
Hhaha… again you are mixing two separate terms. Yes, there is a British group called Jacobite - in England. This has nothing to do with the term “Jacobite” in regard to they Orthodox Church – they are called “Jacobite” because of Mar Jacob Baradeus - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Baradaeus - Mar Jacob was ordained bishop in 541AD, he was very influential in the missionary efforts of the Syriac Church, extending the faith all the way to China…
Unfortunately, the Holy Father, the Holy Synod of the Syro-Malabar Church, and Vatican II do not agree. They all wish the forced modifications to be removed and corrected and the Church to be non-latinised. I think they are more correct than the opinion you express.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
What is the title of this book? And please do keep in mind that a book written by a Portuguese Jesuit is bound to paint the non-Catholics in a negative light… one would hope you would separate the facts from opinion and editorial statements.
Sure they could have. After Diamper, the bishops who did arrive at the Malabar Coast did so secretly, dressed as laymen. Without the knowledge of the Portuguese, lest they be detained or arrested.
Follow the logic with me for a moment - the Catholics were commemorating the Catholicos-Patriarch of Babylon until 1599 and Diamper, Diamper lead to Koonan Cross where a faction of the Catholic faithful revolted against Portuguese rule, most of the revolters returned to the Catholic fold when the Pope sent Carmelites to quell the situation. The smaller faction did not return, but sought assistance from various Eastern patriarchs, but primarily the Catholicos-Patriarch of Babylon, who they were used to. Unfortunately, this Patriarchate was under Muslim domination, as well as having an internal dispute and was in no position to help the Indian non-Catholics. The next closest Patriarchate to the Catholicos-Patriarch of Babylon was the Patriarch of Antioch (which shares much of it’s history and language with the Catholicate of Babylon - afterall this Catholicate was established by Antioch). This Patriarch of Antioch was able to get assistance to the non-Catholic Indians and sent Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem to Kerala, who arrived dressed as a layman and took backroads to avoid Portuguese detention. This Mar Gregorios assisted the non-Catholic Indian Church, but insisted that they adopt the West Syriac Liturgy. Years pass, the non-Catholic Indian Church ordains bishops with an on-and-off relationship with the Syriac Patriarch, who assists as needed. The British come to power, offer to assist financially and academically with a non-interference agreement, the non-Catholic Indians accept. The British start interfering, the majority of the non-Catholic Indian Church decides to end all connection to the British missionaries because of this intrusion. A small minority, headed by a rebel priest (Abraham Malpan) like this new protestant teaching, they are excommunicated. This rebel priest sends this his nephew to the Syriac Patriarch with falsified papers (claiming that the native non-catholic church had selected him to be bishop). The others pledge allegiance to the Syriac Patriarchate - the Patriarch, unaware of the goings on in India ordains this rebel priest’s nephew to bishop. This new protestant-leaning bishop comes back to India and claims to be the head of the non-Catholic church. The majority non-protestants object, but since the British are in charge, they side with this rebel protestant bishop. This Syriac Patriarch them comes to India to settle the matter and this rebel bishop is excommunicated. This is the first Bava /Metran dispute. This excommunicated bishop and his group eventually form the Marthoma Church. The majority stay in union with the Syriac Patriarch, but then in 1912 there is a dispute about the authority of the Syriac Patriarch, remember the local non-Catholics are used to the Patriarch ordaining bishops and leaving most of the affairs to the local Archdeacon. This dispute boils over and the local head of the Syriac Church in Kerala claims have authority over church matters, with the Patriarch having only spiritual authority - the patriarch excommunicates the local head.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
The local head corresponds to the deposed Patriarch Ignatius Abdul Mesih, who then comes to India and states that the Catholicate is re-established. Here is the other Bava/Metran dispute - same nickname, entirely different matter. These two share the same faith, Traditions, and rituals - the only dispute is who is in charge. While this endless dispute is going on, the Holy Synod of the Church convenes and decides to seek out union and support with another Apostolic Church - a bishop named Mar Ivanios is called to be the spokesperson. He writes to the Pope in Rome, and 4 years later, Pope Pius XI responds stating that he will accept union with the Church with no conditions, it’s Liturgy, Traditions, and Rituals are to be maintained, just as the Orthodox are - only show that the bishops were ordained by valid Orthodox bishops (not protestants). Here is where the non-Catholic local Church reunited with the Pope, it is called the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church.
No one claims that ALL went to Mattancherry and schismed. Which “official” version is that? Perhaps Marthoma? I’ve never read that from real scholars. In fact, there were probably a large number at the Koonan Cross, but most of them returned to union with Rome when the Pope sent the Carmelites missionaries (instead of the Portuguese Jesuits, who were hated).
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SyroMalankara
Guest
First off, I didn’t insult a priest or his parish. Secondly, I am not claiming to be “free thinking”, free from “church propaganda” - I actually read the stories of all the Churches and try to understand the perspective of each from their side. After this, I attempted to decipher the facts from the personal opinions of those on each side. That is probably the most difficult - I find that Malayali writers on Church history (and this is true for others as well) do not believe in objectivity - it is all about supporting their side. There is a writer of Marthoma “history” who is notorious for this, if you want to know his name I will tell you via private message - anything he writes I take with caution…
Protestant Christianity is exactly what you state regarding Hinduism “There is no central authority for any belief, hence all the philosophies and superstitions develop independently of each other”; hence you see the problem with protestantism and its freedom as practiced in the United States.
Where?
stthomasdiocese.org/
syromalabarcathedralchicago.org/
How is this Coat of Arms non-SyroMalabar?
http://www.stthomasdiocese.org/images/logo.jpg
And why criticize the whole Eparchy for its coat of arms at all?
As to Luka’s post insulting you – if you will notice, I do not respond to nonsense posts filled with insult - and although I disagree with your interpretation of history, I did defend your character to MathewJoseph. Secondly, it isn’t my job to reply to them. If you have a complaint, tell the moderators of the forum.
Finally - since this history is disputed and somewhat controversial, perhaps it would be best in future discussion to break it down piece by piece instead of posting one gigantic post or a series of lengthy posts which are impossible to answer. One specific time/place and event at a time would be much more understandable and lead to a healthy discussion, instead of this – this style inevitably leads to skipped replies and anger. Not to mention fruitless conversation.
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Mariamkutty
Guest
**Coat of Arms **
My Lord and My God
St. Thomas the Apostle is the father in faith of all the Syro-Malabar Catholics.
He is the Patron of our diocese.
It was he who the spercial encounter with the risen Lord and proclaimed his faith,as he said, “My Lord and My God”
**Motto **
To Love To Serve
This is the motto of the Bishop and his ministry is characterized by his total commitment to love and to service.
**Significance **
St. Thomas Cross: The Symbol of our salvation and of our resurrection.
Dove : Presence of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Blazing Heart Represents the Sacred Heart of Jesus, burning with love
Twelve Lambs: Represent the twelve Apostles of Jesus Christ They also represent the twelve tribes of Israel and now the new Israel, the Universal Church
Lighted Candle: Evangelization - **Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya **- Leading from darkness to light The melting candle represents the self-emptying love of Jesus It reminds us to share and empty ourselves in His love and service
**Star and Stripes:
Bishop’s jurisdiction over the Syro-Malabar faithful in United States of America
Maple Leaves: Bishop’s jurisdiction over the Syro-Malabar faithful in Canada
Indian National Flag and Ashoka Chakra
Represent our Indian culture and our commitment to follow the path of Dharma.
**
**Heraldic Crown:
Represents communion with the Universal Catholic Church and the Holy Father as well as with the Major Archiepiscopal Church of Ernakulam-Angamaly and its Major Archbishop.**
Red Color
Symbolizes the Precious Blood of Christ by which we all have been saved. It also represents the bishop’s resolve to joyfully sacrifice his life and to court martyrdom for the sake of faith and to unite himself with God
**Coat of Arms
It is the Bishop’s symbol as the Syro-Malabar Ordinary in Chicago and is used on letterheads, documents, and all official publications
**
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SyroMalankara
Guest
So what’s not to like? It’s beautiful and theologically sound.
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Mariamkutty
Guest
MathewJoseph, we may be discussing two completely different groups of non-Latin rite Christians in Kerala, that is why there is so much confusion.
The group I am discussing in connection to 1887 vicariate of Thrissur (this being a continuation of the discussion on a separate thread on Syro Malabar Catholic Church in the Thrissurian Tradition) did have Assyro-Chaldean bishops (no Patriarch came to Malabar Coast) until 1597. But after they came in communion with RCC at Synod of Diamper 1599, they had no need for bishops from ME. They had their bishopric as part of Portuguese Padroado post Synod of Diamper, in Angamalee and then Cranganore (Kodungallur) until 1886.
I was referring to the group of Syrian Christians in Mavelikkara, Ranni, Maramon, Kozhencherry, Niranam (bishop house)… with a Metropolitan in Candenad, near Udayamperoor, Cochin, one of whom was called Mar Dionysius. They were a migrant group from ME who did not have a Patriarch from Antioch until the nineteenth century. I’m not sure if they are the same as Knanayi Christians. This group did not participate in Coonan Cross Oath because they had never been under RCC at any time.
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Mariamkutty
Guest
Coat of Arms is from medieval Europe, associated with rulers, knights, feudal lords etc.
The Vatican City has a coat of arms, but then it is part of Europe and part of its history of rulers, and most of all it is still, no matter how small, **an independent CITY STATE. **
The Syro Malabar Church diocese of Chicago, established in 2001, is a diocese of a church of Kerala, India. Why does a church diocese have two national flags (US and Canada) and the secular symbol of the country of origin (India)? Do all Christian churches have political flags on its emblem?
An emblem for a church DIOCESE is one thing, but a coat of arms with national flags and political symbols of three countries? The coat of arms has a powerful visual and political impact. But its connection to the original church in Kerala is less clear.
When Goa, India, was established as a diocese, suffragan of Lisbon, Portugal, in the early sixteenth century, it had a coat of arms, because Goa was a colony of Portugual and Portuguese Padroado was state and church combined. That is not the case with a diocese in the US in the year 2001, of a church from Kerala, India.
I’m simply curious and expressing MY opinion.
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Mariamkutty
Guest
I wish I could find the right word to express your nasty habit of twisting everything I write to imply a malicious intent.
I personally do not approve of mixing church and politics (serving as an independent moral voice is quite a different matter), church and money making businesses (commercializing religion or clergy becoming corporate CEOs)…Churches in India were not part of any political system. European Protestant missionaries were the first in India to combine church and secular education, church and hospitals etc. And at first all services they offered were free of charge, as one would expect church institutions to be. But if church institutions charge fees like any other private institution, what exactly is the difference between a secular and religious institution?
The United States Constitution does have separation of Church and State.
Under those circumstances is it unusual to express critical surprise at a diocese of an Indian Church in the US using a coat of arms, with three flags aka political symbols embossed on it?
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Mariamkutty
Guest
What you have written makes for good fiction.
But I prefer to follow primary historical records and reports instead and that tells a different story.
Since I already announced several posts earlier that I was going to stop posting on this topic, I’m going to stop now.
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Mariamkutty
Guest
This thread is a continuation of the discussion:
Syro Malabar Catholic Church in the Thrissurian Tradition
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=289346&page=55
Syro Malabar Catholic Church in the Thrissurian Tradition
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=289346&page=55
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Who ordained Mar Dionysius?
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Religion, like politics, cannot be practiced in a vacuum. You cannot say that the Church should provide hospitals and then expect that the funds for running those hospitals just appear from no where. Sometimes the Church asks persons or governments to help with funds.
Actually, the Constitution is pretty vague on this - it merely states that Congress shall not establish a State Church - as practiced in Europe - the later interpretation of Church/State separation changed through time to what it is today - the State, at times, behaving in opposition to the Church. Besides, Church/State separation is a protestant ideal, since they don’t agree among themselves on what “church” means.
Here is the Coat of Arms of the Latin Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago and the explanation - notice the ‘fleur de lise’ - the Symbol of French royalty… perhaps you are attributing a negative connotation to these things where none need be.
http://www.archchicago.org/images/logos/arch_logo/v1.1_Final_NoText.png
So you say - yet, when repeatedly asked for your Source, you failed to mention any book or document - instead you threw out a name of a missionary Portuguese Jesuit priest who wrote about dozens of things in the 16th Cent. - and mainly in Portuguese. Unless you are fluent in Portuguese, I doubt you read any so-called “primary source”, especially since you failed to cite the text repeatedly.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Tell all these scholars, priests, and historians that they are writing peer reviewed fiction based on your personal opinion:
- Placid –“ Four essays on the Pre-Seventeenth Century Church of the Thomas Christians of India ( Malabar) “
] - Macomber – “The oldest known text of the Anaphora of the Apostles Addai and Mari” ]
- Mundadan- “History of Christianity in India” p-199, Kanichikatil- “Divine liturgy in the vision of Narsai” p-107 ]
- D. Webb, “ Versions of the Malabar Liturgy” ]
- Connolly, “ Work of Menezes”, Codrington, “ The Malabar Liturgy and the Synod of Diamper” ]
- For a detailed study please refer the book by Matheiken “Malabar Liturgy in the Light of the Roszian Statutes”. ]
- Placid- “ The Thomas Christians” ]
- Placid – “ The Thomas Christians “ ]
- Catholic Encyclopedia- “St. Thomas Christians” The Carmelite Period ]
What is your so-called “primary source” again?
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Aramis
Guest
It should be no surprise; the Vatican College of Heralds is one of the largest in the world. Top 10 if not top 5. Every Catholic Bishop is an armiger. Every Eparchy/diocese has its own heraldry, which the bishop may use, in addition to the bishop’s own heraldry.
Last I checked, every priest was entitled to register heraldric arms for purposes of self-identification.
Western Heraldry, being (at least outside Poland) a matter of purely personal identification (but also being inheritable at death of the holder), is a form of medieval and renaissance identification. The Letters Patent are the true Identification; the arms worn are advertisment of posession of same. The use of arms on documents as identification of sender dates back to the 1200’s if not before. The Church adopted this for identification of Bishoprics and clerics, most especially in print and residence. The pastor would be entitled to place an escutcheon of his priestly arms outside the parish, so that any could identify him by his signet, and his signet would be used to sign documents with a seal.
This practice continues with the use of Arms upon letterhead.
Nor is the practice purely catholic; the Anglican and Episcopal “Churches” make use of heraldry in the same way.
India, having been under UK dominion for much of the 1800’s and into the 1900s, also has much history of civil heraldry. But that doesn’t negate the fact that the church still extensively uses its system of heraldry for identification of dioceses and official actions thereof.
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Mariamkutty
Guest
archdiocese-chgo.org/about_us/coastofarms.shtm
archchicago.org/Cardinal/CoatofArms.aspx
archchicago.org/thearchdiocese/bishops.shtm
Notes regarding coat of arms:
archchicago.org/Cardinal/CoatofArms.aspx
archchicago.org/thearchdiocese/bishops.shtm
Notes regarding coat of arms:
- The last time I checked, the Archdiocese of Chicago is a Roman Catholic church, which was started in Europe. In Rome to be exact. The French explorers and settlers who came to the US shared in the history of medieval Europe when rulers and bishops and knights etc were part of the church hierarchy, with coat of arms etc.
- If the diocese of Chicago has a coat of arms in keeping with its early French pioneers, at a time the United States was not yet an established, independent country that it became in 1776, then it is still in keeping with a European aka French aka Roman Catholic tradition.
- Even so I do not find any political flag embossed on the coat of arms of the Archdiocese of Chicago, of any bishop , neither the American, nor the French, not even the flag of the city state (Vatican) of the church it is part of, namely the Roman Catholic Church.
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Mariamkutty
Guest
**Emblem = Symbol
Coat of Arms **
A coat of arms, more properly called an armorial achievement, armorial bearings or often just arms for short, in European tradition, is a design belonging to a particular person (or group of people) and used by them in a wide variety of ways. Historically, they were used by knights to identify them apart from enemy soldiers. In Continental Europe, commoners were able to adopt burgher arms. Unlike seals and emblems, coats of arms have a formal description that is expressed as a blazon.
In the 21st century, coats of arms are still in use by a variety of institutions and individuals.
The art of designing, displaying, describing and recording arms is called heraldry. The use of coats of arms by countries, states, provinces, towns and villages is called civic heraldry.
Coat of Arms **
A coat of arms, more properly called an armorial achievement, armorial bearings or often just arms for short, in European tradition, is a design belonging to a particular person (or group of people) and used by them in a wide variety of ways. Historically, they were used by knights to identify them apart from enemy soldiers. In Continental Europe, commoners were able to adopt burgher arms. Unlike seals and emblems, coats of arms have a formal description that is expressed as a blazon.
In the 21st century, coats of arms are still in use by a variety of institutions and individuals.
The art of designing, displaying, describing and recording arms is called heraldry. The use of coats of arms by countries, states, provinces, towns and villages is called civic heraldry.
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Mariamkutty
Guest
Using coat of arms is a European practice.
Could you please elaborate on the history of civic heraldry in India during British Raj, with special reference to churches, since that is the topic I commented on?
Syro Malabar Church is not a European church. At least that is the common belief, although Europeans had a lot of say in it after the ancient Indian Christian community came in union with RCC in 1599. Although the original community was very small and consisted only of natives of Malabar Coast, the numbers swelled by the time a separate church was created in 1887 because it was no longer a closed community as it was until 1599 and a common Latin Rite bishop had the final say. The numbers continued to grow quite out of proportion with new conversions directly into the new church. Hence there are four million Syro Malabar Catholics today, three million of whom live in Kerala.
The Syro Malabar Church in the US seeks to retain the culture of Kerala even if the church even in Kerala has long ceased to be a reflection of the original ancient community until 1599. Even so, Syro Malabar Church is still not even an all India church.
All I meant in essence was that political flags (of three countries at that!) seem completely out of place on a church diocesan emblem (even if one overlooks the fact that the emblem is a coat of arms which does not reflect the culture of the country it represents).
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