Syro Malabar Church Phoenix Arizona

[Mariamkutty]

Religion, like politics, cannot be practiced in a vacuum.

Religion can be practiced without politics. Jesus did. Politics can be practiced without religion. That is what secular democracies are all about.

Luke 20:25
.
***Jesus said to them, “Then give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

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John 18: 36, 37

***Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

---

“You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

SyroMalankara: You cannot say that the Church should provide hospitals and then expect that the funds for running those hospitals just appear from no where. Sometimes the Church asks persons or governments to help with funds.

*I did not at any time write that churches should provide schools and hospitals. *It is the responsibility of the ruler or state. Only in theocratic states do religious leaders have the responsibility to provide all services to their citizens, including education and health care. I only mentioned that in India it was British Protestant missionaries who first started to offer education and start mission hospitals first and they offered their services for free. The British government in India started tax funded government educational institutions and hospitals and provided free services for all. All I sought was the difference between private hospitals or private educational institutions run by lay persons of any religion, which charge money for their services and those run by religious - nuns and priests - who charge as much as institutions run by lay individuals. One expects churches to be concerned with spiritual welfare of the people and in doing charitable works for the disadvantaged, like Mother Theresa. Running elite private institutions for the rich, just like any other private service provider, does not count as works of charity. That is not to say it is not useful when church institutions provide high quality education or health care, especially in a country like India where government service is of rather poor quality. Only that it does not fall within the realm of duty of nuns and priests to serve the rich. Anyways I made the statement in connection to church institutions in India which cater mostly to the elite non-Christian population. It would be a bit like Jews running institutions for rich Christians in the US, while neglecting poor Jews. Hindus have no objections to Christians as long as nuns and priests serve only the rich among them, without converting anyone. Well to do Hindus have a problem only when the poor are helped or converted because of the fear they would lose their position of power assigned by their caste and they are afraid of having to share the resources of the land with the poor who would begin to move up the social ladder when they are helped.

SyroMalankara: Actually, the Constitution is pretty vague on this - it merely states that Congress shall not establish a State Church - as practiced in Europe - the later interpretation of Church/State separation changed through time to what it is today - the State, at times, behaving in opposition to the Church.

As far as I can understand the concept of separation of church and state (as is the case even in India), the secular government can function without interference from the church and *vice versa. * And when the government makes laws, while the church may choose to offer advice, the government is not obliged to consult any church or religious organization in discharging its duties. And the church on its part can function without any meddling from the government as long as it doesn’t break any law of the land.

SyroMalankara: Besides, Church/State separation is a protestant ideal, since they don’t agree among themselves on what “church” means.

Why did European Protestant kings appoint themselves heads of their churches, if church and state separation was a Protestant ideal? In fact Protestant rulers wanted to be head of the church in their respective lands. As far as I can understand European history, European kings didn’t want to seek approval of the Pope in the running of their secular or religious affairs, so they appointed themselves heads of churches in their own land. It is precisely because of no clear separation of church and state in monarchies that there is confusion as to what a church means. Although in practice there are clear boundaries between the two.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Who ordained Mar Dionysius?

**How did Dutch Calvinists in Malabar and Coromandel Coast manage without Patriarchs from the Middle East during Dutch period 1602 - 1795?

Whom did the Dutch Calvinists convert in Malabar Coast? Where did the converts go when the Dutch lost power?

Why did non-Catholic Christians from Malabar Coast, especially upper Travancore, who called themselves migrant Syrian Christians, ask for help from Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806 for contact with Patriarchs from ME?
**

 

[Mariamkutty]

Who ordained Mar Dionysius?

How come two factions were formed after break up with CMS missionaries in 1836, following the Synod of Mavelikara - BAVA (Patriarch) faction in addition to the usual Metran (Bishop) faction?

The BAVA faction was formed only after 1836. How come the original group was a Metran faction? There is still a large Metran faction among non-Catholics in Kerala which does not swear allegiance to any Patriarch in Antioch.

The Presbytarian form of church government used by Dutch Calvinists does not require a Patriarch to ordain anyone. Non-Catholics of Malabar Coast were under the care of Dutch Calvinists from 1602 -1795, even though they took control in Cochin only in 1663. Cochin remained their base until they were finally ousted from Kerala.

How come Syro Malankara Church was formed with one priest from the Patriarch faction (BAVA) and two priests from the Metran (bishop) faction in 1932?

 

[mathewjoseph]

How come two factions were formed after break up with CMS missionaries in 1836, following the Synod of Mavelikara - BAVA (Patriarch) faction in addition to the usual Metran (Bishop) faction?

The BAVA faction was formed only after 1836. How come the original group was a Metran faction? There is still a large Metran faction among non-Catholics in Kerala which does not swear allegiance to any Patriarch in Antioch.

The Presbytarian form of church government used by Dutch Calvinists does not require a Patriarch to ordain anyone. Non-Catholics of Malabar Coast were under the care of Dutch Calvinists from 1602 -1795, even though they took control in Cochin only in 1663. Cochin remained their base until they were finally ousted from Kerala.

How come Syro Malankara Church was formed with one priest from the Patriarch faction (BAVA) and two priests from the Metran (bishop) faction in 1932?

This shows your ignorance and foolishness. The metran faction still accepts the spiritual authority of Patriarch of Antioch. Just hear their Holy mass. They remember their head of the church as Moran Mor Ignatius, The patriarch of Antioch in the Holy mass.
**
The fear of the patriarchal faction is on the selfish motives of metran faction. They want to form an independent orthodox church in India and so become the official and state church of India and hence to get important posts in central and state governments. For example, you had observed the candidature of Dr P C Alexander for the President post. Metran faction is backed by big business tycoons, for example, MRF tyres, Manorama, Muthoot companies. They have their motives in getting higher positions all over India. If they remain under Patriarch of Antioch, they know that it is not going to happen since only persecutions are waiting for the true disciples of Christ.

**

 

[Mariamkutty]

Here is the Coat of Arms of the Latin Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago and the explanation - notice the ‘fleur de lise’ - the Symbol of French royalty… perhaps you are attributing a negative connotation to these things where none need be.

http://www.archchicago.org/images/logos/arch_logo/v1.1_Final_NoText.png

Here an image of the German federal coat-of-arms (Bundeswappen) with federal eagle (Bundesadler) by Marcus Schmoeger

http://flagspot.net/images/d/de).gif

Question:
What historical connection does the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago have with Germany?

 

[Mariamkutty]

This shows your ignorance and foolishness. The metran faction still accepts the spiritual authority of Patriarch of Antioch. Just hear their Holy mass. They remember their head of the church as Moran Mor Ignatius, The patriarch of Antioch in the Holy mass.

The fear of the patriarchal faction is on the selfish motives of metran faction. They want to form an independent orthodox church in India and so become the official and state church of India and hence to get important posts in central and state governments. For example, you had observed the candidature of Dr P C Alexander for the President post. Metran faction is backed by big business tycoons, for example, MRF tyres, Manorama, Muthoot companies. They have their motives in getting higher positions all over India. If they remain under Patriarch of Antioch, they know that it is not going to happen since only persecutions are waiting for the true disciples of Christ.

MathewJoseph, you should provide primary historical writings about the following:

**Visits of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan 1806 to Malabar and Coromandel Coast, which included the present districts of Kottayam, Pathanamthitta, Allapuzha (Allepey) districts, Cochin (Candenad, Veropoly), Kodungallur (Cranganore), Angamaly, Paroor and Kunnamkulam… **

Writings of Rev David Corrie describing the teachings of Abdul Masih, a native catechist with journals written by Abdul Masih himself, and letters from Rev C T E Rhenius and Rev J C Schnarre describing their arrival in the mission and their experiences.

**Arrival of Christian Mission Society missionaries to upper Travancore - Kottayam and Allepey:
**
Rev T Norton and his wife who assisted him (Allepey)

Rev Benjamin Bailey (first principal of CMS College set up in Kottayam 1817)

**Rev Henry Baker (who set up the first press in Kottayam 1812)
**
Rev Joseph Fenn

Among others (CMS College had British principals until 1942)

**Information about London Mission Society, LMS, in lower Travancore
**

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**Synod/Padiola of Mavelikkara (Allepey district) took place in 1836, thirty years after the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan, and twenty years after joint training with CMS seminaries in Kottayam. **

**Synod/Padiola of Mulanthuruthy (near Cochin) in 1876, took place seventy years after the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan, when he met with Mar Dionysius a couple of times at Candenad, near Udayamperror, Cochin, and had lengthy discussions about Syriac manuscripts, translation of Bible into Malayalam and education etc.

**

There had been no Patriarch faction among non-Catholics on Malabar Coast when Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan visited them in 1806. They were a migrant community who had been under the protection of Dutch Calvinists until Dutch was ousted in 1795 (however a Dutch governor was based in Cochin until 1809). The Hindu king of Travancore annexed upper Travancore region only by 1754, starting with the defeat of Dutch at Colachel in 1741. Until then it consisted of small principalities which were unified to form Kottayam. Alapuzha (Allepey) likewise consisted of small principalities. Kollam (Quilon) had been under Portguese since 1503 and it was passed on Dutch in 1661.

MathewJoseph, there has been a proper non-Patriarch faction Jacobite church in Malabar since 1836. It was at Synod of Mavelikkara 1836 that official connection and joint training with CMS missionaries was severed. Until 1836, the migrant non-Catholic community of Malabar Coast had only a loosely organized presbytarian church along the lines of Dutch Calvinists. So why do you write as if an independent church for non-Catholics doesn’t exist and is only about to be formed? There are many rich people in Kottayam-Pathnamthitta districts because of tea and rubber plantations. They are many highly educated people from the two districts because British CMS College was set up there in 1817 and all were actively supported by CMS missionaries and British India government via the British Resident who had the permission of the Hindu king of Travancore.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Tell all these scholars, priests, and historians that they are writing peer reviewed fiction based on your personal opinion:

1. Placid –“ Four essays on the Pre-Seventeenth Century Church of the Thomas Christians of India ( Malabar) “ ]
2. Macomber – “The oldest known text of the Anaphora of the Apostles Addai and Mari” ]
3. Mundadan- “History of Christianity in India” p-199, Kanichikatil- “Divine liturgy in the vision of Narsai” p-107 ]
4. D. Webb, “ Versions of the Malabar Liturgy” ]
5. Connolly, “ Work of Menezes”, Codrington, “ The Malabar Liturgy and the Synod of Diamper” ]
6. For a detailed study please refer the book by Matheiken “Malabar Liturgy in the Light of the Roszian Statutes”. ]
7. Placid- “ The Thomas Christians” ]
8. Placid – “ The Thomas Christians “ ]
9. Catholic Encyclopedia- “St. Thomas Christians” The Carmelite Period ]

This article titled: Divisions and Rite of the Churches- Syro Malabar Church, Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church ,Malankara Orthodox Syriac Church, Thozhiyur Church, Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church, Syro Malankara Church, Chaldean Syrain Church cites the above scholars.

Mr SyroMalankara, it would be helpful if you could provide the following information regarding the authors and books you have listed:

**1. When and where, were the books published?

1. Were the books published prior to the arrival of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan starting 1806 followed by CMS missionaries?
2. Were the books published as part of education provided by Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide who came to Cochin in 1657?
3. The biography of the authors, including their diocese of origin. Did the authors get training in Rome or any European university?
4. What exactly do the books deal with? Syriac Liturgy of the ancient Christian community who came in union with RCC in 1599 or some other Syriac Liturgy post arrival of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in Malabar in 1806 who, after his visits, sent out a public call in England and British India to study ancient Syriac Liturgy of the Middle East? The study of Syriac Liturgy by the Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin schismatics of Thrissur post 1836 is part of that call sent out by Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan. **

 

[Mariamkutty]

**This forum is not meant for in-depth academic study. Hence I beg to be excused. **

Anyone interested in the topic discussed here are advised to read also:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=289346&page=55

 

[Mariamkutty]

This thread also needs to be linked with a discussion on Syro Malabar Liturgy

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=354795&page=3

 

[SyroMalankara]

I’m still waiting on the title of your “primary source” - what is that name of that book you claim to be getting your information?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Why did European Protestant kings appoint themselves heads of their churches, if church and state separation was a Protestant ideal? In fact Protestant rulers wanted to be head of the church in their respective lands. As far as I can understand European history, European kings didn’t want to seek approval of the Pope in the running of their secular or religious affairs, so they appointed themselves heads of churches in their own land. It is precisely because of no clear separation of church and state in monarchies that there is confusion as to what a church means. Although in practice there are clear boundaries between the two.

To clarify - Church/State separation is a American Protestant compromise - since there are multiple ununited protestant churches, unlike Europe where there are State sponsored churches.

Abdallah of Arabia was a Muslim convert and became a Christian martyr in Kabul

What are you talking about? Who and what does this fellow have to do with our discussion? If you are going to mention the name of a person no one has even heard of, please provide some information on who this fellow is, and the SOURCE you are citing.

How did Dutch Calvinists in Malabar and Coromandel Coast manage without Patriarchs from the Middle East during Dutch period 1602 - 1795?

Dutch Calvinists are European protestants, they don’t believe in the Episcopate. Syrian Christians - Catholic and nonCatholic - believe that a bishop is needed for legitimacy and for a Church to be proper according to Christ’s teaching. The Syrian Christians in India had the leadership of Archdeacon George of the Cross -
Kerala Syrian Christians:

Fr. Roz SJ was nominated as successor to Mar Abraham on Nov 5, 1599. Bishop Roz SJ, centralized in himself all the authority reducing almost to nothing the powers of Archdeacon. In 1608, the Archdeacon complained and did not get any reply. He was even excommunicated though absolved in 1615. This Archdeacon was George ( of the Cross), whom Mar Abraham had recommended to be his coadjutor and who was the nephew of the George ( of Christ), Bishop elect of Palayur. Quarrels again broke out between Archdeacon in 1618, when he was not made the Administrator when Roz SJ went to Goa. Bishop Roz SJ died on Feb 16, 1624 and was succeeded by Britto Stephen SJ.

Initially relationship was friendly between Bishop Britto Stephen SJ and Archdeacon. Archdeacon again wrote to Papal Nuncio in Lisbon complaining that no reply was received for the petition of 1608 and other things he requested Dominican Donato to be made the coadjutor to Brito SJ. The Nuncio recommended the petition and Rome nominated Donato as coadjutor to Brito SJ. But Donato was killed by pirates on his way to Malabar. Tensions increased between Bishop Brito SJ and Archdeacon. Brito SJ signed a document by which he could not nominate, remove or suspend any vicar nor excommunicate anyone with out the consent of the Archdeacon.

Archdeacon George ( of the Cross) died c 1634 and was succeeded by Archdeacon Thomas. Bishop Britto SJ died in 1641 and Garcia Franics SJ succeeded him. A regular fight ensued between the new Archbishop and the new Archdeacon Thomas. Bishop Garcia SJ had to yield to the Archdeacon in many things and it is said that the Archdeacon had secret correspondence between the Nestorian, Coptic and other Patriarchs, but according to some he wrote only to the Chaldean Patriarch.

In 1652, Ahatallah arrived in Mylapore who informed the Saint Thomas Christians that he is the Patriarch of All India and China who has all the powers given by Pope. In the name of Mary, Mother of God, he invited all the Thomas Christians to rally around him. The whole Thomas Christian community was roused and insurrections took place everywhere. Fr. Manoel de Leira SJ, from Mylapore informed the Portuguese about the movements of Ahatallah. The Portuguese authorities arrested and deported him to Goa via Cochin.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Archdeacon reached Cochin with a number of soldiers and demanded to see Patriarch Ahatallah and to examine his credentials. He said he would not demand the Patriarch’s release if the credentials were found false. The Portuguese agreed first but soon they deported Ahatallah to Goa with out showing him or his credentials to the Archdeacon and his followers…

Whom did the Dutch Calvinists convert in Malabar Coast? Where did the converts go when the Dutch lost power?

The Dutch Calvinists did not try to convert many locals to their Calvinist teachings:
T.I. Poonen "Dutch hegemony in Malabar and its collapse 1663 – 1795":

The Dutch ruled Malabar for over a period of 130 years, and forced the rulers of Malabar to agree to monopolistic contracts with the VOC for pepper and cinnamon. Unlike the Portuguese in Malabar, they did not try to convert indigenous peoples to the Dutch Reformed Doctrine. However, they helped the St. Thomas Christians of Malabar against the Roman Catholic Church.

The few Presbyterian and Congregationalist followers of Syrian decent eventually because Church of South India when the Church was formed in 1948.

Why did non-Catholic Christians from Malabar Coast, especially upper Travancore, who called themselves migrant Syrian Christians, ask for help from Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806 for contact with Patriarchs from ME?

I don’t have any evidence showing that they asked for help from Buchanan personally regarding contacting Patriarchs. Either way, Buchanan as well as the local non-Catholic Syrians of the time (prior to the protestant influence of the non-Catholic Syrians) looked to one of the Middle Eastern Patriarch as the head of the local non-Catholic Syrian Christians:

http://www.e-corpus.org/eng/notices/83468-Syriac-manuscripts.html:

Cambridge University Library (Cambridge, UNITED KINGDOM)
Notice types :

The austere modern building of the Library of the University of Cambridge (United Kingdom) accomodates in its department of manuscripts a collection of Syriac codices of South Indian origin. All of them were acquired in Kerala by Dr Claudius Buchanan, Provost of Fort William College, Calcutta, in 1806, during a journey in which he visited the Jacobite churches and institutions in Travancore (now the southern part of Kerala). He sent them to Cambridge where they secured a place in the library of the University. In each MS one finds the printed notice : “This manuscript was found in one of the churches of the Syrian Christians in India, by the Rev. Claudius Buchanan, in the year 1806.” In a letter to Dr Jowett, dated June 6th, 1809, Buchanan says that all the old Syrian MSS were found “among the Syrian Christians in the interior of Travancore near the mountains” whereas “a few MSS of modern date were found among the Romish-Syrian churches on the sea-shore of travancore and Cochin” (Wright, Catalogue, Vol. I, page xiv). At Cochin Buchanan examined several “Syriac and Syro-Chaldaic” manuscripts ; at Verapoly he found a library “many of the books in which were marked ‘liber hereticus prohibitus’” and at Angamali he found “a good many valuable manuscripts” (Wright, op. cit., p. XV).
Many MSS of the Buchanan collection are biblical ones, in accordance with the intention of the donor : to be used for the edition of the Bible in Syriac. But there are also books of another kind.
The most precious of the MSS of the collection is the so-called Buchanan-Bible (library No. 0o. 1. 1, 2) which was copied in the Middle East in the 12th century ; see Wright, Catalogue, II, pages 1037-1044 ; List, page 4. We ignore when it came to S. India and who brought it there ; it was not in India for more than a century and a half. It is now in a very bad state, but when it was intact it contained the whole Bible, the Old and the New Testaments. The latter contains also 2 Peter ; 2 & 3 John ; Jude (placed after James). But Luke 22, 17. 18 ; John 7, 53-8. 11 and the book of Revelation are wanting. At the end the copyist added “the six books of Clement.” On ff. 131 and 141 the Jacobite Patriarch Michael is mentioned, which makes the Jacobite origin of the codex certain. Wright presumes this Michael to have been Michael the Great who died, according to Assemani (BiOr II, page 369) on the 7th of Teśrìn 2, A. Gr. 1511 = 1199 A. D. (op. cit., page 1043) The codex is of no special interest for the history of the St Thomas Christians of Kerala.

 

[mathewjoseph]

**
At the end the copyist added “the six books of Clement.” On ff. 131 and 141 the Jacobite Patriarch Michael is mentioned, which makes the Jacobite origin of the codex certain. Wright presumes this Michael to have been Michael the Great who died, according to Assemani (BiOr II, page 369) on the 7th of Teśrìn 2, A. Gr. 1511 = 1199 A. D. (op. cit., page 1043) The codex is of no special interest for the history of the St Thomas Christians of Kerala.**

Dear syro malankara
What is your opinion about these? Was it brought to India after 16th century or was it there in India before 15 or 14th century?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Unfortunately, there is no way for anyone to be certain. It should be noted however, that this so-called primary source that Mariamkutty has eluded still hasn’t been cited. The title of the Book is still in question.

 

[Mariamkutty]

**
At the end the copyist added “the six books of Clement.” On ff. 131 and 141 the Jacobite Patriarch Michael is mentioned, which makes the Jacobite origin of the codex certain. Wright presumes this Michael to have been Michael the Great who died, according to Assemani (BiOr II, page 369) on the 7th of Teśrìn 2, A. Gr. 1511 = 1199 A. D. (op. cit., page 1043) The codex is of no special interest for the history of the St Thomas Christians of Kerala.**

Was it brought to India after 16th century or was it there in India before 15 or 14th century?

**MathewJoseph, the non-Catholic Christians Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan visited in 1806 were migrants to Malabar Coast. All we know is that they used some Syriac along with Malayalam in their worship. There is no mention when they started using the Syriac and what Liturgy they followed. They are NOT part of the Apostle Thomas tradition of the natives. The non-Catholic Christian community Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan visited in 1806 were not under any Patriarch of Antioch at the time. The development of the Liturgy of Church of Scotland and the non-Catholic community of Malabar Coast post 1806 have much in common. All the academic work in the area of Syriac Liturgies of the Middle East by Europeans, European and possibly Middle East settlers and their descendants, including mixed peoples of all groups, in Malabar, and native Malabar Christians was done after the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806.
**

 

[SyroMalankara]

MathewJoseph, the non-Catholic Christians Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan visited in 1806 were migrants to Malabar Coast. All we know is that they used some Syriac along with Malayalam in their worship. There is no mention when they started using the Syriac and what Liturgy they followed.

]They are NOT part of the Apostle Thomas tradition of the natives.]/quote]

They separated from the Eastern Syriac Apostle Thomas community united to Rome and eventually started using the West Syriac Liturgy. - The people were of the St. Thomas Community.

The non-Catholic Christian community Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan visited in 1806 were not under any Patriarch of Antioch at the time.

Perhaps not “under” but united to, and getting ordination from.

The development of the Liturgy of Church of Scotland and the non-Catholic community of Malabar Coast post 1806 have much in common.

Like what?

All the academic work in the area of Syriac Liturgies of the Middle East by Europeans, European and possibly Middle East settlers and their descendants, including mixed peoples of all groups, in Malabar, and native Malabar Christians was done after the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806.

So what? Are you claiming that academic work done after Buchanan’s visit in 1806 cannot be trusted? If so, why not?

And - what is the title of your primary source of information - I would like to read this text for myself.

 

[Mariamkutty]

They separated from the Eastern Syriac Apostle Thomas community united to Rome and eventually started using the West Syriac Liturgy. - The people were of the St. Thomas Community…

So what? Are you claiming that academic work done after Buchanan’s visit in 1806 cannot be trusted? If so, why not?

Sorry, I see no reason to believe a piece of fiction invented in the nineteenth century.

I have great respect for real academic work. It is just that I do not count propaganda as academic work. What I have learned, to my great dismay, since I started posting on this forum is that even priests can be spin doctors.

There is a lot of political gain to be made with the spin claiming that the ancient community that came in communion with RCC in 1599 broke away and accepted another Syriac Liturgy. Nobody has challenged that false claim because only priests and those supported by priests have been recruited to write on the topic.

 

[mathewjoseph]

There is a lot of political gain to be made with the spin claiming that the ancient community that came in communion with RCC in 1599 broke away and accepted another Syriac Liturgy. Nobody has challenged that false claim because only priests and those supported by priests have been recruited to write on the topic.

** Real fact is that majority of christians in Kerala took part in Coonan Cross oath. In the oath they rejected the authority of Rome or portuguese on them.** What was the real oath? That also is to be found out. **After the oath, latins influenced many of them and majority became part of catholic church. ** How it was influenced; by money? by force? by positions? Minority separated.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Real fact is that majority of christians in Kerala took part in Coonan Cross oath. In the oath they rejected the authority of Rome or portuguese on them. What was the real oath? That also is to be found out. After the oath, latins influenced many of them and majority became part of catholic church. How it was influenced; by money? by force? by positions? Minority separated.

MatthewJoseph, if you had written that most Latin Rite Catholics broke with Portuguese Padroado, when they were ousted (and in the lead up to the ousting) by the Dutch from Cochin and other places in Malabar Coast (Kannur/Cannanore, Kollam/Quilon, Pallipuram…) and joined the Roman Catholic church when the priests of Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide were sent to given them Catholic guidance and papal protection…it makes perfect sense.

The native Syrian Catholic community needed no such protection because they were a separate group, with their own churches and priests and Syriac Liturgy, who didn’t even live in Mattancherry, Cochin, a Portuguese colony.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Real fact is that majority of christians in Kerala took part in Coonan Cross oath. In the oath they rejected the authority of Rome or portuguese on them. What was the real oath? That also is to be found out.After the oath, latins influenced many of them and majority became part of catholic church. How it was influenced; by money? by force? by positions? Minority separated.

It can be said with some certainty, without the need for intelligence of a rocket scientist to reach the conclusion, that several groups JOINED the ancient native community in different ways and at different stages by borrowing the Apostle Thomas tradition of natives. ***Not the other way around. The ancient Christian community of Malabar Coast were not a group of opportunistic traders who stood to gain anything by leaving their ancient Christian traditions. If they had been opportunistic, it would not have taken the Portuguese a whole century, and that too only by stopping Assyro-Chaldean bishops from coming to Malabar Coast in 1597, in order to get them to come in communion with RCC, which they did only on their own terms by being allowed to retain their Syriac Liturgy and worshiping in their own churches.

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The theories of non-existent schism of the ancient native community and non-existent migrations from Thrissur District to the south, are all part of the political means and propaganda used by ***other communities to adopt the ancient traditions of the ancient native community. ***

The native ancient community of Malabar had very little power within the church hierarchy after 1599, because it was increasingly controlled by priests who had influence within Portguese Padroado, and after its suppression, by priests of Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide. The arrival of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan and British/European Protestant missionaries since 1806, and the Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide in 1657, changed the centers of power drastically. A separate Syro Malabar Church created in 1923, starting with two vicariates in 1887, around three hundred years after Synod of Diamper 1599, has little to do with the power of the ancient native Christian community and their clergy, if there were many in positions of power in the church hierarchy in the first place. It has to do with the power of the large community that was created and added to their numbers post 1599.